• Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Gym Battles, have they become tougher?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
The thing about gym leaders, is that their badge's position in the badgecase often imply their strength. At least, that's how it was in the good old days.. Or not? Ash continuously falters against the early stage gyms in the past FOUR regions, the 2nd in Hoenn, the 1st in Sinnoh, the 2nd in Unova and again the 1st in Kalos.

The question that I pose to ask is whether there is a powercreep in the animé? If yes, can we pinpoint where it set in and what we can expect for the future gym battles in XY.

Gym leaders in the animé often seem much more adequately prepared for the battles they have with Ash. In Diamond and Pearl, Crasher Wake's Quagsire knows the moves Slam, Mud Bomb, Mud Sport and Tail Whip. In the animé, the same pokemon new Sludge Bomb and Ice Beam. That's a bit odd! Fast forward to the days of XY. Viola's Surskit knows the moves Quick Attack, Bubble and Water Sport, in the animé, it knows Protect, Signal Beam, Ice Beam and Sticky Web. Now, it's less hard to imagine that a fourth gym leader uses moves that counter a specific weakness, but the first gym in a region spamming Ice Beam, Psychic, and Solarbeam?

I've made a rundown of all previous (first four of a region) gym battles in the animé and checked what moves were used. Now, Surge's Raichu using Thunderbolt, or Sabrina's Kadabra using Psychic really aren't that interesting to note, because those are the go to moves of their type. Also, note that I featured the first four gym battles, but the main focus of this thread should lie on the first three gym battles. Because, I have a secondary question to pose:

Does Pokemon XY, as opposed to previous arcs, pose a bigger challenge for Ash then previous series in terms of the diversified movesets of the gym leaders?

Here's the list.

Kanto:
- Brock: Tackle, Bind and ... nothing, Geodude apparently didn't use any moves.
- Misty: Tackle, Water Gun and Swift
- Surge: Thundershock, Thunderbolt, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam and Take Down.
- Sabrina: Teleport, Confusion, Psybeam, Psychic, Recover

Johto:
- Falkner: Excluding this guy because Ash still had Charizard on hand and thus stronger moves weren't an issue. Tri-Attack and Drill Peck were the strongest ones..
- Bugsy: String Shot, Poison Sting, Harden, Tackle, Slash, Fury Cutter, Swords Dance, Double Team.
- Whitney: Metronome, Poison Sting, Tackle, Rollout.
- Morty: Lick, Night Shade, Shadow Ball, Confuse Ray, Hypnosis and Mean Look.

Hoenn:
- Roxanne: Mega Punch, Rock Throw, Rollout, Rock Tomb, Sandstorm, Zap Cannon, Thunderwave.
- Brawly: Cross Chop, Karate Chop, Vital Throw, Arm Thrust, Seismic Toss, Knock Off.
- Wattson: Swift, Thunderwave, Screech, Zap Cannon, Bite, Tackle, Charge.
- Flannery: Ember, Flamethrower, Overheat, Reflect, Sandstorm, Double Team, Body Slam, Smog, Yawn, Iron Defense and Sludge Bomb.

Sinnoh:
- Roark: Hidden Power, Rollout, Seismic Toss, Slam, Double Edge, Screech, Stealth Rock, Headbutt, Zen Headbutt, Focus Energy, Flamethrower, Head Smash.
- Gardenia: Magical Leaf, Solarbeam, Leaf Storm, Bite, Leech Seed, Tackle, Weather Ball, Grass Knot, Flash.
- Maylene: Dynamic Punch, Brick Break, Cross Chop, Seismic Toss, Meditate, Drain Punch, Detect, Confusion, Bone Rush, Aura Sphere, Metal Claw, Force Palm.
- Wake: Dragon Rage, Bite, Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam, Razor Wind, Bulk Up, Whirlpool and Ice Fang.

Unova:
- Triplets: Bullet Seed, Bite, Solarbeam, Flamethrower, Dig, Fire Punch, Double Team, Scratch, Water Gun and Mud Sport.
- Lenora: Mean Look, Low Kick, Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray, Roar, Shadow Ball, Protect, Giga Impact.
- Burgh: Protect, String Shot, Leafstorm, Hyperbeam, Dig, X-scissor, Rock Wrecker, Poison Sting, Steamroller, Iron Defense and Solarbeam.
- Elesa: Flame Charge, Double Kick, Wild Charge, Quick Attack, Attract, Electro Ball, Acrobatics, Aerial Ace, and Tackle.

Kalos:
- Viola: Protect, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, Sticky Web, Bubble Beam, Solarbeam, Psychic, Gust, Sleep Powder.
- Grant: Rock Tomb, Flash Cannon, Rock Polish, Iron Tail, Draco Meteor, Crunch, Dragon Tail.
- Korrina: HJK, Force Palm, Drain Punch, Swift, Brick Break, Low Sweep, Focus Blast, Power-up Punch, Bone Rush, Metal Sound, Aura Sphere.

My preliminary conclusion is that during AG, the sets did become more fulfledged. Containing more moves for the secondary and tertiary challenges, making them more worthwhile to view. Think about the wide array of moves Brawly's team used. But in terms of true diversity I think Roark's team, and DP by extension marked a real turning point in what moves the writers wanted to be distributed among the gym leader's pokemon. Then came along as what I would call Best Wishes only redeeming quality: Qualitively well brought together movesets for gym pokemon. Lenora's team in particular comes across as: "They had a great idea here". XY is now pulling that standard even higher. Though I must say, that I'm slightly disappointed with Korrina's overall team. Naturally, Mega Lucario was going to be the highlight -and that's yet another testament to the powercreep I think I'm seeing-, but Mienfoo learns enough coverage moves for it not to be stuck with merely HJK, Drain Punch, Force Palm and Swift. Why not Bounce and a Rock-type move instead of Force Palm and Swift?

So. Discuss, have we seen a powercreep over the course of the past generations with regards specifically the early stage gym leaders and does XY therefore pose a bigger challenge for Ash, or is that a subjective assumption?
 

phanpycross

God-king
Im going to say yes, actually.

Usually in the past, powerful moves like focus blast and drain punch were saved for the lead pokemon of the gym, whle in XY, they seem to casually throw out draco meteor's and Psychic.

However: I cant see Ramos pulling out anything spectacular, as Gogoat's Move-pool is fairly limited.
 

Janovy

Banned
Definitely. And I actually love the more diverse moveset. Tyrunt with Dragon Tail and Draco Meteor was wicked! ^^
 

Afrodisiac

break up w yo gf, im bored
Im going to say yes, actually.

However: I cant see Ramos pulling out anything spectacular, as Gogoat's Move-pool is fairly limited.

Maybe not spectacular, but we'll see it pulling off some tricks against flying-types like Fletchinder or Hawlucha, mainly Wild Charge (also affects Frogadier) & Rock Slide. Also Horn Leech + Milk Drink for annoyance :p
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
Im going to say yes, actually.

Usually in the past, powerful moves like focus blast and drain punch were saved for the lead pokemon of the gym, whle in XY, they seem to casually throw out draco meteor's and Psychic.

However: I cant see Ramos pulling out anything spectacular, as Gogoat's Move-pool is fairly limited.

I can see it having Surf, for countering Fire Types and also Brick Break, to counter Ice Types.
 

Ѕhiny Missingno

Well-Known Member
The early gym battles do seem a lot flashier and more threatening than before that does come at the cost of later gym battles risking a loss of quality. If the early gym leaders are throwing around Ice Beams and Psychics, then how are the later gym leaders supposed to look powerful when Ash's pokémon are reaching the same point of big and flashy moves? I think Roxie is proof enough that the writers were running low on ideas on how to make the final gym leader impressive.

And after Korrina's Mega Lucario it's difficult to think how Ramos could be made into an even more menacing opponent. I doubt they will give us another Mega but if Ramos just evolves his Weepinbell, he already has a team of fully-evolved mons. Something which Korrina didn't.
 

Mr.Munchlax

Great Ball Rank Trainer
Maybe not spectacular, but we'll see it pulling off some tricks against flying-types like Fletchinder or Hawlucha, mainly Wild Charge (also affects Frogadier) & Rock Slide. Also Horn Leech + Milk Drink for annoyance :p
I don't think they'll have Gogoat (or any pokémon for that matter) use Milk Drink any time soon due to the sexual innuendos. The last time they showed that move was Got Miltank? and the dub cut that part out since it was portrayed by having Cyndaquil & Meowth sucking on Miltank's udder
 

Lorde

Banned
Not really imho. They've returned to AG and DP level at best since they require Ash to do some kind of preparation in order to stand a chance. XY Gym battles in general are overrated in my view. They're intense, but it's not like we haven't seen that before. :x
 

ShinyCharyZard

Too old for your rubbish..
They are definitely a big improvement on the Unova gym battles, but I wouldn't really say they appear any more difficult for Ash to win than the ones in Sinnoh were..

I have been much more entertained by the four XY gym battles we've seen so far though, despite the third giving us that 3v2 rubbish..
 
Last edited:

1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
They are definitely a big improvement on the Unova gym battles, but I wouldn't really say they appear any more difficult for Ash to win than the ones in Sinnoh were..

I have been much more entertained by the four XY gym battles we've seen so far though, despite the third giving us that 3v2 rubbish..

I think your counting might be a little off lol.

Also I disagree that the gyms have gotten more difficult. I think the problem is that the writers have gotten lazier so instead of training the rest of his pokemon, they just chuck Pikachu in there and say meh.

Well in XY this is the case.

The thing is that in the older gens, there was like no move variety which is why the writers were pulling random moves out their butts(Tauros and Fissure anyone??). Now that there are all these moves, they can use more variety.
 

ShinyCharyZard

Too old for your rubbish..
I think your counting might be a little off lol.

Gym battle #1 - Viola 2v2 - Loss
Gym battle #2 - Viola 2v2 - Win
Gym battle #3 - Grant 3v2 - Win
Gym battle #4 - Korrina 3v3 - Win

Nope I was going by gym battles, of which there have been four so far.. I know there have been three gyms, but four battles..
 

1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
Gym battle #1 - Viola 2v2 - Loss
Gym battle #2 - Viola 2v2 - Win
Gym battle #3 - Grant 3v2 - Win
Gym battle #4 - Korrina 3v3 - Win

Nope I was going by gym battles, of which there have been four so far.. I know there have been three gyms, but four battles..

You might wanna specify that upfront next time man, that is confusing lol.
 

zhixun

Well-Known Member
I think you have missed one of Lucario moves. That is Grow Punch which I think it is worthwhile to mention.
 

Joltik-Kid

Meh ಠ_ಠ
If you go strictly by moveset, sure they've got more powerful moves. Pokemon wise though, meh, their Ace is still their strongest by far and even then if it's not evolved it could always be stronger if it was.

Nope.

Come back when Ash actually loses to something that isn't made up anime ******** like slippery floors. He totally would have won had pikachu just did what he did vs the countless other strong ice types the rat has faced in its lifetime.
I still remember the Indigo League Ice Floor Battlefield that Pikachu used as an advantage despite having never been used on Ice before and Ash being an utter disaster of a trainer.
 

Lorde

Banned
I found the first Santalune Gym battle to be laughable because of Surskit's ice field. Ash's Pikachu shouldn't have struggled at all given his past experiences with similar ice fields imo. It almost felt like the writers regressed Ash and Pikachu just to make the Gym battle seem more difficult than it should've been. :x
 
I found the first Santalune Gym battle to be laughable because of Surskit's ice field. Ash's Pikachu shouldn't have struggled at all given his past experiences with similar ice fields imo. It almost felt like the writers regressed Ash and Pikachu just to make the Gym battle seem more difficult than it should've been. :x
U know that wasn't all he had to deal with. He also had to deal with sticky web, Psychic and SOLARBEAM, considering how OP those moves are in the anime, especially Psychic. That's what made the gym battle really tough.
 
Last edited:

Joltik-Kid

Meh ಠ_ಠ
U know that wasn't all he had to deal with. He also had to deal with sticky web, Psychic and SOLARBEAM, considering how OP those moves are in the anime, especially Psychic. That's what made the gym battle really tough.
I could deal with Sticky Web causing the problem... but it was clearly the Ice that somehow threw Ash for a loop
 

KKS-Lapras

Well-Known Member
I could deal with Sticky Web causing the problem... but it was clearly the Ice that somehow threw Ash for a loop

Flat ice, with nothing to bounce off of, no pillars of ice. It is the first time that Ash fought on a flat ice field like that. So Ash being thrown for a loop really isn't all that unreasonable.

I think at this point, there's so many more damaging moves to show off and use, it's easier on the writers. In earlier generations, things were more limited, now, there's room to show off different moves, that before would have seemed ridiculous for using in certain situations, especially earlier on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top