Locormus
Can we please get the older, old forum back?
The thing about gym leaders, is that their badge's position in the badgecase often imply their strength. At least, that's how it was in the good old days.. Or not? Ash continuously falters against the early stage gyms in the past FOUR regions, the 2nd in Hoenn, the 1st in Sinnoh, the 2nd in Unova and again the 1st in Kalos.
The question that I pose to ask is whether there is a powercreep in the animé? If yes, can we pinpoint where it set in and what we can expect for the future gym battles in XY.
Gym leaders in the animé often seem much more adequately prepared for the battles they have with Ash. In Diamond and Pearl, Crasher Wake's Quagsire knows the moves Slam, Mud Bomb, Mud Sport and Tail Whip. In the animé, the same pokemon new Sludge Bomb and Ice Beam. That's a bit odd! Fast forward to the days of XY. Viola's Surskit knows the moves Quick Attack, Bubble and Water Sport, in the animé, it knows Protect, Signal Beam, Ice Beam and Sticky Web. Now, it's less hard to imagine that a fourth gym leader uses moves that counter a specific weakness, but the first gym in a region spamming Ice Beam, Psychic, and Solarbeam?
I've made a rundown of all previous (first four of a region) gym battles in the animé and checked what moves were used. Now, Surge's Raichu using Thunderbolt, or Sabrina's Kadabra using Psychic really aren't that interesting to note, because those are the go to moves of their type. Also, note that I featured the first four gym battles, but the main focus of this thread should lie on the first three gym battles. Because, I have a secondary question to pose:
Does Pokemon XY, as opposed to previous arcs, pose a bigger challenge for Ash then previous series in terms of the diversified movesets of the gym leaders?
Here's the list.
Kanto:
- Brock: Tackle, Bind and ... nothing, Geodude apparently didn't use any moves.
- Misty: Tackle, Water Gun and Swift
- Surge: Thundershock, Thunderbolt, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam and Take Down.
- Sabrina: Teleport, Confusion, Psybeam, Psychic, Recover
Johto:
- Falkner: Excluding this guy because Ash still had Charizard on hand and thus stronger moves weren't an issue. Tri-Attack and Drill Peck were the strongest ones..
- Bugsy: String Shot, Poison Sting, Harden, Tackle, Slash, Fury Cutter, Swords Dance, Double Team.
- Whitney: Metronome, Poison Sting, Tackle, Rollout.
- Morty: Lick, Night Shade, Shadow Ball, Confuse Ray, Hypnosis and Mean Look.
Hoenn:
- Roxanne: Mega Punch, Rock Throw, Rollout, Rock Tomb, Sandstorm, Zap Cannon, Thunderwave.
- Brawly: Cross Chop, Karate Chop, Vital Throw, Arm Thrust, Seismic Toss, Knock Off.
- Wattson: Swift, Thunderwave, Screech, Zap Cannon, Bite, Tackle, Charge.
- Flannery: Ember, Flamethrower, Overheat, Reflect, Sandstorm, Double Team, Body Slam, Smog, Yawn, Iron Defense and Sludge Bomb.
Sinnoh:
- Roark: Hidden Power, Rollout, Seismic Toss, Slam, Double Edge, Screech, Stealth Rock, Headbutt, Zen Headbutt, Focus Energy, Flamethrower, Head Smash.
- Gardenia: Magical Leaf, Solarbeam, Leaf Storm, Bite, Leech Seed, Tackle, Weather Ball, Grass Knot, Flash.
- Maylene: Dynamic Punch, Brick Break, Cross Chop, Seismic Toss, Meditate, Drain Punch, Detect, Confusion, Bone Rush, Aura Sphere, Metal Claw, Force Palm.
- Wake: Dragon Rage, Bite, Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam, Razor Wind, Bulk Up, Whirlpool and Ice Fang.
Unova:
- Triplets: Bullet Seed, Bite, Solarbeam, Flamethrower, Dig, Fire Punch, Double Team, Scratch, Water Gun and Mud Sport.
- Lenora: Mean Look, Low Kick, Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray, Roar, Shadow Ball, Protect, Giga Impact.
- Burgh: Protect, String Shot, Leafstorm, Hyperbeam, Dig, X-scissor, Rock Wrecker, Poison Sting, Steamroller, Iron Defense and Solarbeam.
- Elesa: Flame Charge, Double Kick, Wild Charge, Quick Attack, Attract, Electro Ball, Acrobatics, Aerial Ace, and Tackle.
Kalos:
- Viola: Protect, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, Sticky Web, Bubble Beam, Solarbeam, Psychic, Gust, Sleep Powder.
- Grant: Rock Tomb, Flash Cannon, Rock Polish, Iron Tail, Draco Meteor, Crunch, Dragon Tail.
- Korrina: HJK, Force Palm, Drain Punch, Swift, Brick Break, Low Sweep, Focus Blast, Power-up Punch, Bone Rush, Metal Sound, Aura Sphere.
My preliminary conclusion is that during AG, the sets did become more fulfledged. Containing more moves for the secondary and tertiary challenges, making them more worthwhile to view. Think about the wide array of moves Brawly's team used. But in terms of true diversity I think Roark's team, and DP by extension marked a real turning point in what moves the writers wanted to be distributed among the gym leader's pokemon. Then came along as what I would call Best Wishes only redeeming quality: Qualitively well brought together movesets for gym pokemon. Lenora's team in particular comes across as: "They had a great idea here". XY is now pulling that standard even higher. Though I must say, that I'm slightly disappointed with Korrina's overall team. Naturally, Mega Lucario was going to be the highlight -and that's yet another testament to the powercreep I think I'm seeing-, but Mienfoo learns enough coverage moves for it not to be stuck with merely HJK, Drain Punch, Force Palm and Swift. Why not Bounce and a Rock-type move instead of Force Palm and Swift?
So. Discuss, have we seen a powercreep over the course of the past generations with regards specifically the early stage gym leaders and does XY therefore pose a bigger challenge for Ash, or is that a subjective assumption?
The question that I pose to ask is whether there is a powercreep in the animé? If yes, can we pinpoint where it set in and what we can expect for the future gym battles in XY.
Gym leaders in the animé often seem much more adequately prepared for the battles they have with Ash. In Diamond and Pearl, Crasher Wake's Quagsire knows the moves Slam, Mud Bomb, Mud Sport and Tail Whip. In the animé, the same pokemon new Sludge Bomb and Ice Beam. That's a bit odd! Fast forward to the days of XY. Viola's Surskit knows the moves Quick Attack, Bubble and Water Sport, in the animé, it knows Protect, Signal Beam, Ice Beam and Sticky Web. Now, it's less hard to imagine that a fourth gym leader uses moves that counter a specific weakness, but the first gym in a region spamming Ice Beam, Psychic, and Solarbeam?
I've made a rundown of all previous (first four of a region) gym battles in the animé and checked what moves were used. Now, Surge's Raichu using Thunderbolt, or Sabrina's Kadabra using Psychic really aren't that interesting to note, because those are the go to moves of their type. Also, note that I featured the first four gym battles, but the main focus of this thread should lie on the first three gym battles. Because, I have a secondary question to pose:
Does Pokemon XY, as opposed to previous arcs, pose a bigger challenge for Ash then previous series in terms of the diversified movesets of the gym leaders?
Here's the list.
Kanto:
- Brock: Tackle, Bind and ... nothing, Geodude apparently didn't use any moves.
- Misty: Tackle, Water Gun and Swift
- Surge: Thundershock, Thunderbolt, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Body Slam and Take Down.
- Sabrina: Teleport, Confusion, Psybeam, Psychic, Recover
Johto:
- Falkner: Excluding this guy because Ash still had Charizard on hand and thus stronger moves weren't an issue. Tri-Attack and Drill Peck were the strongest ones..
- Bugsy: String Shot, Poison Sting, Harden, Tackle, Slash, Fury Cutter, Swords Dance, Double Team.
- Whitney: Metronome, Poison Sting, Tackle, Rollout.
- Morty: Lick, Night Shade, Shadow Ball, Confuse Ray, Hypnosis and Mean Look.
Hoenn:
- Roxanne: Mega Punch, Rock Throw, Rollout, Rock Tomb, Sandstorm, Zap Cannon, Thunderwave.
- Brawly: Cross Chop, Karate Chop, Vital Throw, Arm Thrust, Seismic Toss, Knock Off.
- Wattson: Swift, Thunderwave, Screech, Zap Cannon, Bite, Tackle, Charge.
- Flannery: Ember, Flamethrower, Overheat, Reflect, Sandstorm, Double Team, Body Slam, Smog, Yawn, Iron Defense and Sludge Bomb.
Sinnoh:
- Roark: Hidden Power, Rollout, Seismic Toss, Slam, Double Edge, Screech, Stealth Rock, Headbutt, Zen Headbutt, Focus Energy, Flamethrower, Head Smash.
- Gardenia: Magical Leaf, Solarbeam, Leaf Storm, Bite, Leech Seed, Tackle, Weather Ball, Grass Knot, Flash.
- Maylene: Dynamic Punch, Brick Break, Cross Chop, Seismic Toss, Meditate, Drain Punch, Detect, Confusion, Bone Rush, Aura Sphere, Metal Claw, Force Palm.
- Wake: Dragon Rage, Bite, Sludge Bomb, Ice Beam, Razor Wind, Bulk Up, Whirlpool and Ice Fang.
Unova:
- Triplets: Bullet Seed, Bite, Solarbeam, Flamethrower, Dig, Fire Punch, Double Team, Scratch, Water Gun and Mud Sport.
- Lenora: Mean Look, Low Kick, Thunderbolt, Confuse Ray, Roar, Shadow Ball, Protect, Giga Impact.
- Burgh: Protect, String Shot, Leafstorm, Hyperbeam, Dig, X-scissor, Rock Wrecker, Poison Sting, Steamroller, Iron Defense and Solarbeam.
- Elesa: Flame Charge, Double Kick, Wild Charge, Quick Attack, Attract, Electro Ball, Acrobatics, Aerial Ace, and Tackle.
Kalos:
- Viola: Protect, Ice Beam, Signal Beam, Sticky Web, Bubble Beam, Solarbeam, Psychic, Gust, Sleep Powder.
- Grant: Rock Tomb, Flash Cannon, Rock Polish, Iron Tail, Draco Meteor, Crunch, Dragon Tail.
- Korrina: HJK, Force Palm, Drain Punch, Swift, Brick Break, Low Sweep, Focus Blast, Power-up Punch, Bone Rush, Metal Sound, Aura Sphere.
My preliminary conclusion is that during AG, the sets did become more fulfledged. Containing more moves for the secondary and tertiary challenges, making them more worthwhile to view. Think about the wide array of moves Brawly's team used. But in terms of true diversity I think Roark's team, and DP by extension marked a real turning point in what moves the writers wanted to be distributed among the gym leader's pokemon. Then came along as what I would call Best Wishes only redeeming quality: Qualitively well brought together movesets for gym pokemon. Lenora's team in particular comes across as: "They had a great idea here". XY is now pulling that standard even higher. Though I must say, that I'm slightly disappointed with Korrina's overall team. Naturally, Mega Lucario was going to be the highlight -and that's yet another testament to the powercreep I think I'm seeing-, but Mienfoo learns enough coverage moves for it not to be stuck with merely HJK, Drain Punch, Force Palm and Swift. Why not Bounce and a Rock-type move instead of Force Palm and Swift?
So. Discuss, have we seen a powercreep over the course of the past generations with regards specifically the early stage gym leaders and does XY therefore pose a bigger challenge for Ash, or is that a subjective assumption?