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Hardest Gym Leader of All Time

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
In Gen 1 Psychic was only weak to Bug.
Are you sure? because I distinctly remember seeing the Super Effective message after I KO Alakazam with a Psychic.
 

Sαpphire

Johto Champion
Are you sure? because I distinctly remember seeing the Super Effective message after I KO Alakazam with a Psychic.

Psychic has always resisted itself, and I can't find evidence of any glitches in the first generation that would change how that functioned against a monotype opponent. However, Sabrina's Venomoth in Red, Blue, and Green - as well as the third generation remakes - was weak against Psychic.
 

Captain Jigglypuff

Leader of Jigglypuff Army
Maybe it’s the Mandela effect for me because I keep remembering KO Hypno several times with a Super Effective Psychic attack while playing RBY. I just remember how vastly different the type chart effectiveness was during Gen I And spending three years of confusion as to why Bug types didn’t go down so quickly after Poison Sting was used in GSC as they did in RBY.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Captain Jigglypuff said:
Maybe it’s the Mandela effect for me because I keep remembering KO Hypno several times with a Super Effective Psychic attack while playing RBY. I just remember how vastly different the type chart effectiveness was during Gen I And spending three years of confusion as to why Bug types didn’t go down so quickly after Poison Sting was used in GSC as they did in RBY.

I vaguely remember the anime stating that Ghost-types were strong against Psychic-types back in OS during Gen I. I don't know if that's a Mandela effect type situation as well, or if the dub simply got it wrong, but it made me think that Ghost-types were naturally strong against Psychic-types in R/G/B/Y.
 

TwilightBlade

Well-Known Member
I vaguely remember the anime stating that Ghost-types were strong against Psychic-types back in OS during Gen I. I don't know if that's a Mandela effect type situation as well, or if the dub simply got it wrong, but it made me think that Ghost-types were naturally strong against Psychic-types in R/G/B/Y.

I think that was said in 1 of the Saffron City episodes but I haven't watched them in years lol. When I faced Morty one time in Gold or Silver (I forget which one) I remember that I used Kadabra because I thought that was a smart move but then his Haunter or Gengar beat it and I was left with no back up plan. :[
 

Sαpphire

Johto Champion
I vaguely remember the anime stating that Ghost-types were strong against Psychic-types back in OS during Gen I. I don't know if that's a Mandela effect type situation as well, or if the dub simply got it wrong, but it made me think that Ghost-types were naturally strong against Psychic-types in R/G/B/Y.

I think that was said in 1 of the Saffron City episodes but I haven't watched them in years lol. When I faced Morty one time in Gold or Silver (I forget which one) I remember that I used Kadabra because I thought that was a smart move but then his Haunter or Gengar beat it and I was left with no back up plan. :[

A lot of evidence suggests that Ghost being ineffective against Psychic in the first generation was a simple coding error. Even a trainer in the Saffron Gym says that Psychic types "only fear Bugs and Ghosts." The anime likely, in this case, was actually more correct than the games, hence the fix starting in the second generation of games. Honestly, this misconception is probably a part of why a lot of people found Sabrina particularly tough, especially if they first saw the anime or another official source that stated Ghost-types would be good against her, or if they started in a later generation and didn't know about this quirk when buying an older game.
 

Aduro

Mt.BtlMaster
A lot of evidence suggests that Ghost being ineffective against Psychic in the first generation was a simple coding error. Even a trainer in the Saffron Gym says that Psychic types "only fear Bugs and Ghosts." The anime likely, in this case, was actually more correct than the games, hence the fix starting in the second generation of games. Honestly, this misconception is probably a part of why a lot of people found Sabrina particularly tough, especially if they first saw the anime or another official source that stated Ghost-types would be good against her, or if they started in a later generation and didn't know about this quirk when buying an older game.
The gen 1 ghosts were already poison types anyway, and if you didn't have someone to trade with, haunter was probably slower than Zam. But at least Gen I psychic types were still frail. I remember sweeping Sabrina pretty easily with Tauros last time I played Yellow and Leaf Green.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
Clair. I lost over and over to her and her puzzle was devastatingly difficult to young me so every time I lost i had to redo it. Oddly enough, this somehow caused her to become my favorite. And the only Gym Leader that ever came close to beating her was Valerie, despite the plethora of Ice-type leaders (my favorite type).


I played Yellow. I beat Brock with Metapod + Harden until I Struggled the Onix to defeat. With Whitney, I got a lucky Burn on her Miltank the first time I fought her, so I won easily. Can't remember anyone particularly difficult in the other Gens.
 
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NovaBrunswick

Canada Connoisseur
In the main games: Lenora. That Herdier is going to kill something, and watchhog is a mencae with hypnosis and a good speed stat. Like the OP said, normal gym leaders are really tough.

Lenora is like the Gen 5 version of Whitney. Both are Normal-type Gym Leaders, both have two Pokémon who are annoying in their own ways, both come relatively early in the game, and both have moves that they will spam over and over. But they do both have an easy-to-find counter (you can trade for Machop to deal with Whitney, and Sawk and Throh are catchable in nearby Pinwheel Forest for Lenora).

I vaguely remember the anime stating that Ghost-types were strong against Psychic-types back in OS during Gen I. I don't know if that's a Mandela effect type situation as well, or if the dub simply got it wrong, but it made me think that Ghost-types were naturally strong against Psychic-types in R/G/B/Y.

As @TwilightBlade said, I think Psychics were always meant to be weak to Ghosts (since ghosts are a common fear), but the programming errors in Gen 1 meant they weren't, so the anime at that point was actually right for once.

And the only Gym Leader that ever came close to beating her was Valerie, despite the plethora of Ice-type leaders (my favorite type).

I didn't find any of the Kalos leaders hard at all, except maybe Grant. Viola has a Surskit to kind of throw you off if you chose Fennekin, but I had Fletchling (now Talonflame) at that point, so it wasn't too much of a problem.

With WHitney, I got a lucky Burn on her Miltank the first time I fought her, so I won easily. Can't remember anyone particularly difficult in the other Gens.

In HG/SS, I paralyzed her Miltank with my Flaaffy (now Ampharos), then just spammed Flash over and over so it would at least have minimal accuracy.
 
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TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
Lenora is like the Gen 5 version of Whitney. Both are Normal-type Gym Leaders, both have two Pokémon who are annoying in their own ways, both come relatively early in the game, and both have moves that they will spam over and over. But they do both have an easy-to-find counter (you can trade for Machop to deal with Whitney, and Sawk and Throh are catchable in nearby Pinwheel Forest for Lenora).



As @TwilightBlade said, I think Psychics were always meant to be weak to Ghosts (since ghosts are a common fear), but the programming errors in Gen 1 meant they weren't, so the anime at that point was actually right for once.



I didn't find any of the Kalos leaders hard at all, except maybe Grant. Viola has a Surskit to kind of throw you off if you chose Fennekin, but I had Fletchling (now Talonflame) at that point, so it wasn't too much of a problem.



In HG/SS, I paralyzed her Miltank with my Flaaffy (now Ampharos), then just spammed Flash over and over so it would at least have minimal accuracy.
Oh, no, I just meant Valerie was close to beating her as my favorite, not that she was difficult.
 

NovaBrunswick

Canada Connoisseur
Sabrina in RBY, Whitney in GSC, Norman in RSE, Volkner in DPPT and Drayden and Iris in BW.

What about X/Y and Sword/Shield?

Maybe it’s the Mandela effect for me because I keep remembering KO Hypno several times with a Super Effective Psychic attack while playing RBY. I just remember how vastly different the type chart effectiveness was during Gen I And spending three years of confusion as to why Bug types didn’t go down so quickly after Poison Sting was used in GSC as they did in RBY.

Bug was weak to Poison in Gen 1, but the glitches meant Poison was also weak to Bug. That was the only time two types were both super-effective against and weak to each other. I still think Bug being weak to Poison makes sense, because you use pesticides to kill insects in your garden and on crops.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
RedBlastoise said:
Clair in Gold, Silver and Crystal was hard to beat. I took someone's advice and used a Jynx that knew Ice type moves but I still took a beating from Clair's Dragonairs and almost lost.

What made her team harder in G/S/C than in HG/SS [for me at least] was that she had three Hakuryu (Dragonair) in G/S/C as opposed to just two in HG/SS. Her having a Gyarados in HG/SS made the battle less frustrating since almost any damage dealing Electric-type move could take it down with ease.
 

NovaBrunswick

Canada Connoisseur
What made her team harder in G/S/C than in HG/SS [for me at least] was that she had three Hakuryu (Dragonair) in G/S/C as opposed to just two in HG/SS.

Clair and Lance both have multiple Pokémon of the Dragonite family, and in HG/SS, we find out that they're cousins. Huh, does it run in the family...? :rolleyes:

Her having a Gyarados in HG/SS made the battle less frustrating since almost any damage dealing Electric-type move could take it down with ease.

I think they gave Clair a Gyarados in her HG/SS team because many people assume Gyarados is a Dragon-type, due to its draconic looks and personality. I think Gyarados was even originally supposed to be Water/Dragon in Gen 1, but the only Dragon-type move in that gen was Dragon Rage, which only ever does 40 HP damage, so they didn't want Gyarados to seem weak compared to its pre-evolution.

Iris was too tough for me when I played B/W. I had to go catch an Ice type to beat her and it was the 1st time that I trained a Pokemon for the sole purpose of beating a gym leader.

I played Black, so I didn't fight Iris, but I don't think Drayden was too difficult, apart from the Druddigon with Rough Skin.
 

Joycap

The Smogonites' personal George Orwell
I know it's not quite the question that was asked (difficulty spikes, as opposed to outright hardest), but Grant from XY is the one that has always made me hesitant to make a new save. A combination of somewhat sloppy game design for the point that can be pinned down, as well as Twave hax being borked (and the precautions to counteract them being capricious at best) is what has made him one of my least favourite in the series to fight at even level. Hell, a lot of his trappings I'd honestly say makes him a bit of a watered down Whitney in a few ways (Thumper the Steelix is just that one Female Machop, Flinch chances etc.).

Not going to make this a long post because a while ago I already sent a screenshot to a friend with my further thoughts in any modicum of detail. Here it is:

GrantRant.png
 

Joycap

The Smogonites' personal George Orwell
Grant’s Amaura is that hard to take out. Just use a Fighting type attack and it goes down with ease.

I'm not denying that the weakness spread of Amaura is crap, it's just the fact that Steel types up to that point basically do not exist outside of Steelix (again, Thumper trade) or Mawile (which has no significant STAB to speak of vs Amaura, and has a 50% chance of being the wrong level on encounter, missing out on Fairy Wind and doing almost jack all vs Tyrunt. Keep in mind 2 things:
  1. Move relearner isn't until later in (Dendemille Town)
MawileLevels.png

MawileSweetMiss.png


To be precise, that's a 5% chance to encounter, and with the 50% chance to be wrong ability (not saying Intimidate is needed, but preferable) AND 50% chance to be wrong level, that's a 1.25% chance of getting the encounter you need in an optimal state for the fight.

EDIT: It's not 5% raw encounter, it's 2%. So 0.5% optimal encounter.

As for the fighting types, you have, up to this point:

- Mienfoo
- Meditite
- Pancham
- Machop / Machoke
- Croagunk
- Scraggy

(You don't get Timburr because it's breed only from Gurdurr that come far later into the game.)

Point being is that all bar one of them fail to take a hit well (Machoke), and Mienfoo / Meditite lacks good STAB outside of Rock Smash you get in the town before this. Machoke is just bulky enough, and has good STAB for the level, but is slow, so Stomp hax isn't something it wants to take. Others fail to OHKO from my exp with what they have (sans Helmet), which is surprising.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, but I have noticed patterns in how annoying it can be to take him when stacked up against others on this thread. Weakness spread is the only real black mark against him, and even then the game deprives you of the chance to exploit even that without acknowledging the concessions you have to make.
 
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NovaBrunswick

Canada Connoisseur
I know it's not quite the question that was asked (difficulty spikes, as opposed to outright hardest), but Grant from XY is the one that has always made me hesitant to make a new save. A combination of somewhat sloppy game design for the point that can be pinned down, as well as Twave hax being borked (and the precautions to counteract them being capricious at best) is what has made him one of my least favourite in the series to fight at even level. Hell, a lot of his trappings I'd honestly say makes him a bit of a watered down Whitney in a few ways (Thumper the Steelix is just that one Female Machop, Flinch chances etc.)

As I said before, I did struggle somewhat with Grant in my X playthrough. Crunch is a bit too powerful for that point in the game, almost as much as Lenora's Retaliate or Bugsy's Fury Cutter (which can have a potential 160 BP).
 
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