GhostAnime
Searching for her...
No need to look into something I live with every day.
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Hate speech laws - It is good for Nazis to be terrified
- Thread starter ThePokemonmaster11
- Start date
No need to look into something I live with every day.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4F4jYZXAAAlEIF.jpg
Also if we're going to debate about whether or not white people in America have privilege stop it, we do. If you don't believe that you are either sheltered or the most ignorant kind of person.
Also if we're going to debate about whether or not white people in America have privilege stop it, we do. If you don't believe that you are either sheltered or the most ignorant kind of person.
snorlax512
Well-Known Member
Where did you get that from? Or did you just make it up to help your argument?
lemoncatpower
Cynical Optimist
It is not "good" for Nazi's to be terrified. What would be "good" is if they were educated and reformed and punished for any war-crimes committed. It'd be "good" if Nazi's would rethink there positions, and ultimately that the Nazi ideas didn't exist, which education and reform would greatly help. Although it's better for Nazis to be scared to voice their hateful opinions than having them openly voice their opinions, hopefully making them rethink why they feel the way they do.
snorlax512
Well-Known Member
You can ignore their opinion if you wish. You can even argue with them! What you cannot say is I don't like your opinion, therefore you are not allowed to say it.
lemoncatpower
Cynical Optimist
discriminatory views shouldn't even be validated as "an opinion". it's just plain wrong thinking and should be classified as a psychological illness.
just found this article too which is a good one. http://www.valleyvanguardonline.com/discriminatory-views-should-not-be-validated-as-opinions/
just found this article too which is a good one. http://www.valleyvanguardonline.com/discriminatory-views-should-not-be-validated-as-opinions/
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snorlax512
Well-Known Member
Oh, it's a stupid and wrong opinion. Still is an opinion, which you have no right to suppress unless that person infringes upon your rights. You do have the right to stand up and tell him that he's wrong though.
chess-z
campy vampire
My man, I got that from years of reading on race and how power structures play into race. I am by no means an expert, but your appeal to ignorance is starting ti be a pain. How would you define racism, 'expert', since my time was clearly wasted.EDIT: Ghostanime hit it on the head. You don't have a personal stake in this discussion cause you can't. These issues only matter to you on an exclusively ideological level. You aren't at risk in the same way a POC or a LGBT+ person is.
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GhostAnime
Searching for her...
I'm going to explain this one more time for the record.
This isn't to make an argument. This is just the lay out the ground work of the reality we live in today.
Language... is powerful. It influences. It teaches. We can see this across the different languages in the world and how our cultures across the different languages correlate with how we speak and communicate with each other. Western society for example has strong individualistic values because of our usage of "I" in contrast to Eastern values. This is simply one example.
With this in mind, hate speech is a specific area of language we've never truly had to think about much in our society. When it comes to any type of slur, pejorative, hate speech, or what have you, white men have never been the target.. that is because throughout most of our history in western society and through many colonized countries and communities around the world, white men have been the enforcers of culture and language for centuries.
Words like "redneck", "cracker", etc were all originally used by elitist white people. They weren't used the same way or have the same impact as other slurs like ****, the n word, etc. They weren't used whilst someone was being harmed, on the verge of being harmed, or in the middle of talking about the extermination of said identity. That is what separates any type of slang directed at white men from other slurs. Thus, your feelings on "hate speech" as a white men is through the lens of a white man unaffected by marginalization.
That is a fact. You cannot ever empathize with marginalized people because you've never had a marginalized experience. No, a few years in a black school is not the same as our marginalized experiences. Our identities are connected to our daily life until the day we die. You never have to think about what you're wearing, whether your trans identity will get you killed, or whether the combination of your skin color and clothes will get you stereotyped (and thus targeted in some harmful way). There aren't hate groups out to get you. There aren't men out here to sexually violate you and your space. These things are forever abstract to you because of the comfort you take for granted as the default, normal human being.
But there are people out there who have to think about these things constantly. We have to be subjected in spaces where we are the minority. We have to face the statistics that we are constantly targeted, sought after, and harmed because of our identities. That's not to say white men aren't harmed or don't die, but it's not because you are white men. That is the key difference. That is why minorities need safe spaces designated for us because the entire world is not safe for our pleasure. We can't be caught in certain places for risk of harm. We do not have the pleasure of just going out and not worrying about who will think and react.
For those who don’t have an identity outside of the norm, that is their normal. For someone who is black, or who is LBGT, or who is a woman, that is their normal. As individuals, we sometimes forget this and go on believing that we all are the same kind of normal.
And that’s where the problems begin. Inadvertent though it may be, language that targets anybody not part of the default identity implies that people not like them are somehow abnormal, and it can especially isolate and marginalize those who identify as the "Them". It can communicate to a person: There is something wrong with you. There is something wrong with them. This is simply just talking about pejoratives. Not hate speech. Pejoratives. This is what is communicated when we call things bad things "gay" or poor things "black" or how life's a "b". White male identities throughout the history of language and culture do not have pejoratives or hate speech directed at their identities.
Since your identity is synonymous with what society considers normal and invisible, how can you expect to understand the impact of hate speech? How can you expect to understand how at the end of the day historically, psychologically, and even statistically, hate speech is nothing but an idea to you?
We can sit here and say whoever casts the first stone is all that matters; but let's not kid ourselves. Before every action, there is an idea. There is a belief. People do not murder before they think of it. People do not attack before they believe a certain thing. Yes, not all ideas lead to action, but all action precedes an idea.
So, tell me, how long do I have to wait before that action leads to something? Because by the time it does, it's too late. You're basically telling people who are marginalized that they should wait before they are assaulted, violated, or worse yet, dead before they assume somebody screaming slurs that they will do us no harm. You, as a person who has no indicators of violence through communication, who is not historically and statistically targeted for their identity, is telling people who are to wait that risk despite not knowing what it feels like.
Don't even bother dissecting this post and replying it with whatever logic and objectivity you have ready; this isn't about that. It never was. You have the privilege of looking at life through the lens of pure logic and objectivity because once again, these topics are but a mere abstract idea to you. They aren't imbedded in your psyche because you've never had to worry about them as you've grown up.
Topics like these have and will always be about one simple thing: empathy. That's it. No right or wrong. Just empathy. If you do not have empathy, we're already not going to get anywhere.
Thank you for your time.
This isn't to make an argument. This is just the lay out the ground work of the reality we live in today.
Language... is powerful. It influences. It teaches. We can see this across the different languages in the world and how our cultures across the different languages correlate with how we speak and communicate with each other. Western society for example has strong individualistic values because of our usage of "I" in contrast to Eastern values. This is simply one example.
With this in mind, hate speech is a specific area of language we've never truly had to think about much in our society. When it comes to any type of slur, pejorative, hate speech, or what have you, white men have never been the target.. that is because throughout most of our history in western society and through many colonized countries and communities around the world, white men have been the enforcers of culture and language for centuries.
Words like "redneck", "cracker", etc were all originally used by elitist white people. They weren't used the same way or have the same impact as other slurs like ****, the n word, etc. They weren't used whilst someone was being harmed, on the verge of being harmed, or in the middle of talking about the extermination of said identity. That is what separates any type of slang directed at white men from other slurs. Thus, your feelings on "hate speech" as a white men is through the lens of a white man unaffected by marginalization.
That is a fact. You cannot ever empathize with marginalized people because you've never had a marginalized experience. No, a few years in a black school is not the same as our marginalized experiences. Our identities are connected to our daily life until the day we die. You never have to think about what you're wearing, whether your trans identity will get you killed, or whether the combination of your skin color and clothes will get you stereotyped (and thus targeted in some harmful way). There aren't hate groups out to get you. There aren't men out here to sexually violate you and your space. These things are forever abstract to you because of the comfort you take for granted as the default, normal human being.
But there are people out there who have to think about these things constantly. We have to be subjected in spaces where we are the minority. We have to face the statistics that we are constantly targeted, sought after, and harmed because of our identities. That's not to say white men aren't harmed or don't die, but it's not because you are white men. That is the key difference. That is why minorities need safe spaces designated for us because the entire world is not safe for our pleasure. We can't be caught in certain places for risk of harm. We do not have the pleasure of just going out and not worrying about who will think and react.
For those who don’t have an identity outside of the norm, that is their normal. For someone who is black, or who is LBGT, or who is a woman, that is their normal. As individuals, we sometimes forget this and go on believing that we all are the same kind of normal.
And that’s where the problems begin. Inadvertent though it may be, language that targets anybody not part of the default identity implies that people not like them are somehow abnormal, and it can especially isolate and marginalize those who identify as the "Them". It can communicate to a person: There is something wrong with you. There is something wrong with them. This is simply just talking about pejoratives. Not hate speech. Pejoratives. This is what is communicated when we call things bad things "gay" or poor things "black" or how life's a "b". White male identities throughout the history of language and culture do not have pejoratives or hate speech directed at their identities.
Since your identity is synonymous with what society considers normal and invisible, how can you expect to understand the impact of hate speech? How can you expect to understand how at the end of the day historically, psychologically, and even statistically, hate speech is nothing but an idea to you?
We can sit here and say whoever casts the first stone is all that matters; but let's not kid ourselves. Before every action, there is an idea. There is a belief. People do not murder before they think of it. People do not attack before they believe a certain thing. Yes, not all ideas lead to action, but all action precedes an idea.
So, tell me, how long do I have to wait before that action leads to something? Because by the time it does, it's too late. You're basically telling people who are marginalized that they should wait before they are assaulted, violated, or worse yet, dead before they assume somebody screaming slurs that they will do us no harm. You, as a person who has no indicators of violence through communication, who is not historically and statistically targeted for their identity, is telling people who are to wait that risk despite not knowing what it feels like.
Don't even bother dissecting this post and replying it with whatever logic and objectivity you have ready; this isn't about that. It never was. You have the privilege of looking at life through the lens of pure logic and objectivity because once again, these topics are but a mere abstract idea to you. They aren't imbedded in your psyche because you've never had to worry about them as you've grown up.
Topics like these have and will always be about one simple thing: empathy. That's it. No right or wrong. Just empathy. If you do not have empathy, we're already not going to get anywhere.
Thank you for your time.
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GhostAnime
Searching for her...
When you are so accustomed to your privilege and inequality to the point where it's an inseparable part of your identity, any form equality or attention giving to anything else outside of that realm will be seen as a persecution of freedoms.
snorlax512
Well-Known Member
Sorry I haven't been reading on race for years. I just did a google search and found that racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."
Great way to win an argument. LGBT's can pass any law they want concerning the LGBT community, because anyone whose not LGBT doesn't have a personal stake and therefore their arguments are irrelevant.
@Ghostanime: Fair enough, I respect you and condemn racism just as much as anyone.
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chess-z
campy vampire
Yikes. This isn't really the place for this deabte, and that's an uncomfortably authoritarian stance you got there.
Also, ghostanime, if my definition of racism is wrong, please correct me.
That's a big part of the issue with this stuff. Look at any time politicians sign a law limiting women's rights. You never see a woman in the room. Same with black rights. Either women and minorities are actually that unqualified to reach these positions, or white men really do hold a majority of the power, and it's kinda obvious which one it is.
snorlax512
Well-Known Member
Ha, ha. It's not like the women themselves voted for the man to make the law right? Also, do you really think that stuff like abortion doesn't concern men because it is in the woman's body? Is it not his child as well? Does he not have to pay child support?
lemoncatpower
Cynical Optimist
concerning men and being governed by only men are two completely different things. Also men should not trump a woman's decision for abortion in any way what so ever. They can go knock someone else up.
chess-z
campy vampire
Updating my statement: Men alone should not make laws about woman's reproductive rights. It's telling that no women draft those laws.