Hate speech laws - It is good for Nazis to be terrified

[ThePokemonmaster11]

If it gets down to the speech inciting violence, then hate speech laws could be enacted, as that is a threat to peoples' lives. The government only needs to step in when is threatens the lives or rights of others.

I'll break my silence. I don't see why we need hate speech laws if the government arrests people for inciting violence, I could see such laws being used as a weapon by both sides to persecute enemies. As for a previous poster mentioning micro aggression, you realize the founder of psychology was a crazy himself, right? Freud couldn't solve his own problems let alone others. And with theories, theories are just THAT. A theory isn't necessarily fact, but a proposed idea with lots of support.

 

[chess-z]

As for a previous poster mentioning micro aggression, you realize the founder of psychology was a crazy himself, right? Freud couldn't solve his own problems let alone others. And with theories, theories are just THAT. A theory isn't necessarily fact, but a proposed idea with lots of support.

This statement so overwhelmingly fallacious I almost just don't know what to do. "Just a theory" is used to dismiss evolution and climate change. That's not how scientific theories work. That's not how science works. A scientific theory has gone through rigorous peer review and testing. It's not like someone pulls it out of thier butt and slaps the word theory on it and siddenly it's valid. As for Freud being crazy, So?!? That doesn't logically work on any level. Lots of scientists have had psychological disorders. That doesn't and shouldn't invalidate an entire field of study.

 

[bobjr]

There's a weird thing where people act like scientists act like something is always set in stone and will never change, when most will accept new evidence and will accept the new idea as long as acceptable proof is found.

Of course what qualifies as acceptable proof is hard to understand for a lot of people.

And no modern psychologist takes Freud seriously. Like take any general psych course, they'll usually go "Yeah everything about him is kinda irrelevant now but we just teach you about him because he's considered the father of psychology"

 

[lemoncatpower]

The Criminal Code of Canada. Sections 318, 319, and 320 of the Code forbid hate propaganda. "Hate propaganda" means "any writing, sign or visible representation that advocates or promotes genocide or the communication of which by any person would constitute an offence under section 319."

US should adopt the same rules Canada has around it, not hard to follow and creates more respect (not thateveryone follows it), but saying religion trumps the right to be respected is horrible. People shouldn't be allowed to say whatever they want if they influence and are trying to pass on their hateful beliefs to others. Those beliefs ARE wrong, it's wrong to think you have an inherent power over someone due to how you were born or what you "believe" and that you can talk them down or that their lifestyle is wrong. It is just plain wrong, and people will do well to look in their own basket instead of others.

 

[Sadib]

Trump's rise to power brings with it a lot more hate speech. I doubt republicans mind that.

I find it hilarious that the guy who's for hate speech got banned. Where's your free speech now?

 

[lemoncatpower]

Trump's rise to power brings with it a lot more hate speech. I doubt republicans mind that.

I find it hilarious that the guy who's for hate speech got banned. Where's your free speech now?

LOL yeah check out the us elections thread

 

[Thepowaofhax]

I'll break my silence. I don't see why we need hate speech laws if the government arrests people for inciting violence, I could see such laws being used as a weapon by both sides to persecute enemies.

I was arguing that hate speech laws should only be against people who are inciting violence, but okay.

 

[ThePokemonmaster11]

Trump's rise to power brings with it a lot more hate speech. I doubt republicans mind that.

I find it hilarious that the guy who's for hate speech got banned. Where's your free speech now?

Conservatives aren't for hate speech. They simply are worried about their free speech being censured. Christians like me fear the left taking away my right to preach freely like the left fears Christians trying to turn the country into a theocracy. Hate speech laws are a bad idea because it gives government power to silence people, simply for a difference of opinion. What keeps someone from using the laws to target opposing groups?

Hax, I wasn't arguing against you or even mentioning you specifically. I thought that point of conversation was the best place to start because you had a good point and I wanted to take your point a step further.

 

[bobjr]

There are tons of liberal Christians out there, they won't censor speech like that. Most hate speech laws are against things that the person is born with and can't be changed.

 

[ThePokemonmaster11]

There are tons of liberal Christians out there, they won't censor speech like that. Most hate speech laws are against things that the person is born with and can't be changed.

As a Christian, I believe homosexuality is a sin. Now before you rip me for believing that hear me out, I'm not picketing funerals; I'm not saying go rot in hell; I'm not beating people; and I wouldn't treat a homosexual any different than I'd treat anyone else, I treat them with love and respect–I simply don't believe it's right and might mention so in a sermon if I was to preach about sin. What stops someone from including that as hate speech? That's what the woman in this case did and Ellen demanded that hate speech laws be enacted to silence the pastor woman. She literally said that said beliefs need to be punished.

 

[bobjr]

Because people are born that way, and you're saying what they are is a sin for something they cannot change. Why do you think heavily religious areas have higher LGBT suicide rates?

 

[ThePokemonmaster11]

Because people are born that way, and you're saying what they are is a sin for something they cannot change. Why do you think heavily religious areas have higher LGBT suicide rates?

Stick to the point, bob. I want you to hear me out, I'm not hurting anyone and I'm showing the utmost respect–I'm simply preaching. Say I'm preaching at my church and I happen to mention adultry, fornication, and homosexuality as sins. Should that be a base for hate crimes? That's the question, not whether you agree with my beliefs or not.

 

[bobjr]

Adultery and fornication are fine, it's just the homosexuality thing. Because it's saying it's wrong to be a protected group of people who can't choose how they are, and that leads to more bad things happening in that community for that group. The same thing literally happened with race before, where Mormons preached that being black was wrong, and they had to cut it out.

Hate speech against LGBT groups isn't a sole religious thing either. Like most forms of racism and discrimination it's a lot more complex than it looks on the surface.

 

[ThePokemonmaster11]

Adultery and fornication are fine, it's just the homosexuality thing. Because it's saying it's wrong to be a protected group of people who can't choose how they are, and that leads to more bad things happening in that community for that group. The same thing literally happened with race before, where Mormons preached that being black was wrong, and they had to cut it out.

Hate speech against LGBT groups isn't a sole religious thing either. Like most forms of racism and discrimination it's a lot more complex than it looks on the surface.

This is where I have an issue and I want you to look at this from my prospective here as a Christian just to see why I have an issue here–the Bible says that all three of those things are sins; there has never been a true biblical foundation to justify racism. People may have twisted scripture to their purposes, but God never condoned racism.

Now that's a religious belief–we're not saying you have to believe our way to them. We're just preaching to our congregation about sin. How is this hate speech and under the First Amendment how can this be censured? We're not inciting violence of any kind. This isn't the KKK (who might I say were NOT Christian, but a cult claiming the name of God) burning crosses on the front lawn saying that gays are inferior. This is straight up Bible scripture and I could get in trouble for even reading it.

That sounds dangerous. And again what stops hate speech laws from becoming a weapon to be used on each other?

 

[bobjr]

The book of Numbers tells of when the Israelis began to inter-marry (it uses the term “commit whoredom”) with the Moabites, a neighbouring ethnic group with a different religion. This provoked the rage of God who commanded Moses to “hang them”. One man had married a “Midianitish”. An Israeli, Phinehas killed both of them with a javelin. God praises him for this and declares he “hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel.” He then rewards him with a “covenant of peace” and the covenant of everlasting priesthood.” Moral of the story, God doesn’t want you to mix with people other than your own. But honestly it's kinda scary the amount of Christians who don't actually read the bible. I'm actually going through a scholarly type podcast of it right now.


What I'm talking about isn't personal belief, but proven scientific facts with evidence. You think the high frequency of LGBT attack and suicides in deeply religious areas is a coincidence? It's not outright saying that these people need to be hurt/killed, but a more subtle one where it just implies it.

And what stops it from being a weapon? I'll just go back to saying it should only be against things people can't choose and are born with. Is it not one of those things? Then it's not hate speech, and should be easily worked out.

 

[ThePokemonmaster11]

The book of Numbers tells of when the Israelis began to inter-marry (it uses the term “commit whoredom”) with the Moabites, a neighbouring ethnic group with a different religion. This provoked the rage of God who commanded Moses to “hang them”. One man had married a “Midianitish”. An Israeli, Phinehas killed both of them with a javelin. God praises him for this and declares he “hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel.” He then rewards him with a “covenant of peace” and the covenant of everlasting priesthood.” Moral of the story, God doesn’t want you to mix with people other than your own. But honestly it's kinda scary the amount of Christians who don't actually read the bible. I'm actually going through a scholarly type podcast of it right now.

I challenge you to research the culture of the pagan nations surrounding Israel. Cain murdered his brother and his descendant Lamech murdered a man for merely striking him. This is the type of culture the surrounding nations had. God forbade marriage to outside tribes because they were hideous pagans, not for their race. These people slaughtered children on altars and would be like marrying a terrorist. In fact, other nations and tribes outside of Israel were spared and/or included for keeping God's commands and placing faith in God. Jesus at the well comes to mind, Jeremiah finding men keeping the law outside of Israel among the nomads, Rahab was saved, the Gentiles were included in the new covenant for placing faith in Christ and Him crucified.


What I'm talking about isn't personal belief, but proven scientific facts with evidence. You think the high frequency of LGBT attack and suicides in deeply religious areas is a coincidence? It's not outright saying that these people need to be hurt/killed, but a more subtle one where it just implies it.

No, Westboro might say that; but I want to introduce them to my Lord and Savior that gives new life. I want to show them they have something to live for. I want to tell them Christ died for them and for mankind's sin–that there's a community of Christians that care about them. How's that hate speech? That's love.

 

[bobjr]

The bible literally states that there was a race of giants, and they were all killed. But again that's not the point of this, since the bible is just a bunch of put together stories 100 years after Jesus died, and has been so carefully edited and reinterpreted that one solid meaning shouldn't be applied from it in today's society outside of "Be a good person"

But you're still saying at a base level what they are is wrong, that they have nothing to live for. Like you're putting them on a lower level than yourself because you think they made a wrong choice when they're fine as they are. Again, this is still wrong. You say you don't hate them, but saying you hate what they live for is just as bad.

 

[ThePokemonmaster11]

The bible literally states that there was a race of giants, and they were all killed. But again that's not the point of this, since the bible is just a bunch of put together stories 100 years after Jesus died, and has been so carefully edited and reinterpreted that one solid meaning shouldn't be applied from it in today's society outside of "Be a good person"

But you're still saying at a base level what they are is wrong, that they have nothing to live for. Like you're putting them on a lower level than yourself because you think they made a wrong choice when they're fine as they are. Again, this is still wrong. You say you don't hate them, but saying you hate what they live for is just as bad.

The giants were the spawn of demons, sir, and were hideous people.

Everyone who truly believes in God's word believes that they are ALL wretched at base level. No one is immune from sin, hence why Christ had to die for mankind. I know this is "preachy" but again we're having a debate here, allow me to relay my position. I hate what all mankind lives for bob, mankind is one of the most selfish things imaginable. Look at corporate greed, look at Wall Street, look at Washington DC–do we need anymore proof? I even hate myself for what I lived for prior to God. I find it kinda unfair that me preaching the Bible could get me imprisoned. That's what concerns me about hate speech laws, in addition to the fact that there still isn't anything stopping someone like Trump from waking up one day and saying that criticizing him is now hate speech. A dictator could step up and use those things to silence us all by rewording them. It's not unprecedented for someone to change laws to fit their agenda.

Anyways, I've said everything I wanted to say. I appreciate that we actually had a conversation here that didn't totally degrade to name calling and I appreciate you actually listened to my side even if you don't agree. It actually means a lot to me that we could have an honest discussion. You see very little of that today.

I'll tell you I love America, just the fact that we're free to have these discussions makes it a great place.

 

[bobjr]

You do realize this isn't an American board right? It's not a sole American thing that's only able to be discussed in America.

And if someone tries to change the law then that's when people should get up and fight for what it should be, not how one person wants it. If a dictator truly takes over the country I'm sure people would rise up way before they were settled and changing hate speech laws. Like of all things that's not going to be trigger that sets people off.

If religion works for you that's great, but it shouldn't have to be the standard. One of the most interesting things to me about Islam is their religious scholars are welcomed to criticize and question their holy literature. Societal values change over time, so it's important to reflect and go "Is this important still?" We've advanced so much in technology and scientifically that we can look and see that these are biases caused by irrational human behavior, not a natural order that needs to be, and with science can be proven wrong.

Though I never got why homosexuality is out as the big sin. It's in the same area as women needed to be killed if they aren't a virgin at marriage, slavery, and bats being birds, so I don't get why that one stands out so much.

 

[chess-z]

The West Wing did a great bit on the Bible and LGBT stuff. Homosexuality is refrenced as being a sin a grand total of three times in the Old Testament. There are a multitude of other "laws" that are mentioned more that makes absolutely no sense in today's world. Wearing a peice of clothing that's been made with different materials, all of the cryptic hinting of what a woman can and can't do during her period, how a woman needs ro be purified or pay restitution or whatever after her period, how the sentence is almost always death by stoning, etc..

Fun fact: lesbians aren't against the Bible since it never talked about them. Neither are transgender people for that matter. Make of this what you will.

I'm pretty sure the reassin you're so against it is because you don't want to think of yourself as the kind of person who would be hateful. (btw i get fed the love the sinner hate the sin crap all of the time, christ would be disgusted)