Hate speech laws - It is good for Nazis to be terrified

[Ereshkigal]

Just so you know not calling a trans person by the correct gender on purpose means you're saying "I literally could not respect you any less"

This says everything I was going to say.

Seriously, Snorlax, there's nothing wrong with those laws. The only reason I oppose such laws is because of American political corruption; those nations demonstrate how the laws can be done right.

 

[GhostAnime]

First off, not everyone refuses to use gender-neutral pronouns like zir or zey out of disrespect. They may do so because of the belief that gender is binary

Which is disrespect.

The question is not whether this is disrespectful or not, the question is should you have your assets seized and sued for being disrespectful?

Actually your original problem was that he couldn't speak. You didn't say anything about being sued and seized.

 

[bobjr]

It seems you think that this is just a sweeping ban where innocent people making jokes will be punished against their will. It's not that at all. There's a reason stand up comedians can tell jokes and not get mobbed. This is just to protect against the people who are actually hateful and want to do harm to those groups of people.

 

[GhostAnime]

https://www.autostraddle.com/its-ti...cal-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

good educational post sorta for neutral observers.

 

[chess-z]

No, but it doesn't mean what I'm saying is wrong either.

I mean, you did dig yourself further into this hole, and you're gonna have a hard time trying to convince me, a trans woman, that some rando's right to dehumanize me is more important tham protecting people like me.

 

[snorlax512]

https://www.autostraddle.com/its-ti...cal-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

good educational post sorta for neutral observers.

I don't have a PhD or anything, but this person seems to have a very basic understanding about biology.

Our species have evolved to be sexually binary so that two individuals of the opposite sex can pass down their genes to produce offspring.
Males have sex chromosomes XY, females have chromosome XX

Sometimes mutations arise (I.e the system ****s up and passes down the wrong thing) and you get individuals with XXX or like XXXY.

Not only are those occasions extremely rare, but those individuals are also infertile.

Furthermore, those individuals also are sexually binary. Their sex is still determined by the presence of the Y chromosome.

Whoever wrote this article has formed his conclusion even before he has researched his arguments (essentially the opposite of the scientific method). Pretty pathetic to push their PC agenda in the name of science.

I wouldn't read this if you want a neutral, non-biased perspective on how sex and gender work.

 

[chess-z]

Fun fact: not all intersex people are infertile.

Another fun fact: Sex =/= gender and insisting they do is pretty bigoted.

 

[snorlax512]

Fun fact: not all intersex people are infertile.

Another fun fact: Sex =/= gender and insisting they do is pretty bigoted.

The point is, human beings were designed to be sexually binary so that a male and female can pass on their genes to keep our species alive.

There are individuals who were meant to be male or female, but run into difficulties during sexual differentiation (e.g exposure to testosterone, or some people have genetic defects that render them unable to respond to certain hormones).

Just because errors occur in biological systems doesn't mean that biological sex is a social construct. It is the means of how we keep our species alive.

 

[chess-z]

The point is, human beings were designed to be sexually binary so that a male and female can pass on their genes to keep our species alive.

There are individuals who were meant to be male or female, but run into difficulties during sexual differentiation (e.g exposure to testosterone, or some people have genetic defects that render them unable to respond to certain hormones).

Just because errors occur in biological systems doesn't mean that biological sex is a social construct. It is the means of how we keep our species alive.

tbh all of of this talk about design and "meant to be" sounds pretty religous

gender is a social construct, get off your psuedo-scientific high horse and listen to an actual trans person

 

[GhostAnime]

wow i can't believe i'm hearing this from a supposed intellectual atheist.

this is why i don't harp on religious as much as I used to. man, you should have seen my debate posts 10 years ago. now I know religion isn't what makes people follow dogmas. this guy is a perfect example of that.

I never thought I'd hear an atheist use the phrase "humans were meant to be".

 

[snorlax512]

I mean "designed" as in shaped through natural selection instead of created by a deity.

 

[chess-z]

Why does that even matter? This is about hate speech and how rhetoric like "there are two binary biological genders" hurts trans people.

(ps designed implies intent)

 

[snorlax512]

Why does that even matter? This is about hate speech and how rhetoric like "there are two binary biological genders" hurts trans people.

(ps designed implies intent)

If that statement is true, you should be allowed to say it regardless of whether it hurts people.

By that argument any form of harassment, bullying or inappropriate social interaction could be excused as a "difference of belief." And therein lies the danger.

Shouting and heckling women outside abortion clinics could (and always is) be rationalised as fair because of the speakers beliefs about abortion.
Heckling people outside places of worship could be legitimised as a "belief" about that communities religion.
The Westbro Baptists church and their placards of Military Funerals.

You are allowed to tell a woman that you don't think abortions are moral. You are perfectly free to preach your religion to others.

It's the 'shouting and heckling' part which makes it not okay.

Same goes with gender pronouns imo. You should be able to hold the opinion that there aren't 2000 genders out there, and not be forced to address people the way they want.

If you go out of your way and invade someone's personal space to heckle and shout their wrong gender in their face, that's harassment too. [/QUOTE]

I don't generally deal in hypotheticals.

But do you see my point? There is nothing objective about offence at all. Just because the average person would get offended by X doesn't necessarily mean it's reasonable to get offended by X.

It seems you think that this is just a sweeping ban where innocent people making jokes will be punished against their will. It's not that at all. There's a reason stand up comedians can tell jokes and not get mobbed. This is just to protect against the people who are actually hateful and want to do harm to those groups of people.

A cop literally got sued 15,000 by the Ontario Human Right's Tribunal for misgendering a trans woman. He was reading off her id. :/


No one has yet to convince me why disrespect should be illegal.

 

[GhostAnime]

No one has yet to convince me why disrespect should be illegal.

that's because you're a straight cis white guy who doesn't understand the idea of oppression. *eye roll*

I mean "designed" as in shaped through natural selection instead of created by a deity.

You are using ought from is. Don't atheists know logical fallacies?

Besides, for a person who professes to understand Evolution and science, why didn't you study up the history of gender and sex in animals? you know, how not all animals have binary genders/sexes and that there are many who are agender, asexual, change genders/sexes, or that these things you're talking about have nothing to do with supporting a binary system of sex. it's just your socially constructed ideas covered up with vague science.

 

[snorlax512]

that's because you're a straight cis white guy who doesn't understand the idea of oppression. *eye roll*

You claim you're a debater, so why do you use 'you're a straight cis white male' as an argument?

You are using ought from is. Don't atheists know logical fallacies?

Besides, for a person who professes to understand Evolution and science, why didn't you study up the history of gender and sex in animals? you know, how not all animals have binary genders/sexes and that there are many who are agender, asexual, change genders/sexes, or that these things you're talking about have nothing to do with supporting a binary system of sex. it's just your socially constructed ideas covered up with vague science.

You're right. Different organisms have different mechanisms to pass down their genes. Some reproduce asexually, some can self-fertilise, some change sex. In humans, the mechanism by which we keep our species alive is via the fusion of gametes from two opposite sexes to produce offspring.

I'm not telling you whether the machine ought to be binary, I'm just telling you how the machine operates. Just because there are errors in the biological system doesn't mean the system is socially constructed.

 

[GhostAnime]

You claim you're a debater, so why do you use 'you're a straight cis white male' as an argument?

Remember the longest post I made in this topic specifically for guys like you? Yeah. That post. That was the argument. You just ignored it like everything else.

I'm not telling you whether the machine ought to be binary, I'm just telling you how the machine operates.

If that was all you were saying, we wouldn't be having a debate about this.

Hence your use of the word "error". What we mean by social construction is how we interpret the supposed machine. chess-z is not an "error".... unless we place the error on our interpretation of her body and mind. She is not an "error" simply because we interpreted the machine wrong.

You are only using error because LBGT do not "keep the species alive" (although that is also a debatable point when you talk about stuff like population control and sexuality/sex being more of a spectrum instead of a binary, but your lack of knowledge makes it too exhausting to educate you on those fronts). Again, you are using cisnormative and heternormative language with dogmatic talking points similar to a religious person. You might think science supports your views but they still don't. Human sex and sexuality is still not completely understood because efforts and knowledge have been hijacked due to assumptions like yours.

 

[snorlax512]

But it is an error. Mutations arise from copying the wrong nucleotides during DNA replication. I have a genetic defect which means I can't eat certain beans. That is an error.

Bro, I don't care about cisnormative and heternormative. I am talking science, and the good thing about science is that it doesn't take sides. I hate it when people use science to push their political agendas.

And you know how much I hate religion

 

[lemoncatpower]

If that statement is true, you should be allowed to say it regardless of whether it hurts people.



You are allowed to tell a woman that you don't think abortions are moral. You are perfectly free to preach your religion to others.

It's the 'shouting and heckling' part which makes it not okay.

Same goes with gender pronouns imo. You should be able to hold the opinion that there aren't 2000 genders out there, and not be forced to address people the way they want.

If you go out of your way and invade someone's personal space to heckle and shout their wrong gender in their face, that's harassment too.


But do you see my point? There is nothing objective about offence at all. Just because the average person would get offended by X doesn't necessarily mean it's reasonable to get offended by X.


A cop literally got sued 15,000 by the Ontario Human Right's Tribunal for misgendering a trans woman. He was reading off her id. :/


No one has yet to convince me why disrespect should be illegal.

When I was studying at the university of manitoba there actually an incident where a heavily religious group was rallying against abortion with signs up all over campus that said "we fight to stop genocide in other countries why not here?" and other such signs. But a lot of people, mainly women, complained bout the signs stating they shamed women in vulnerable positions and made women out to be murderers when it's not like they're proud of what they had to do. So the signs that were all over campus had to be put in a hall that basically no one used, it was awesome lol.

Also I'm not sure what the belief of only "he" and "she" is so strongly based on. Or why it is so much defended. Does it hurt you in any what so ever that someone wants to be called something other than he or she? Also the article I posted was about how if he thinks someone is a woman, then he will call them she, even if they prefer he and have battled their whole life to be identified as a he while everyone around them belittled them for that thought. So to that person, being called a he instead of a she is vital to feeling who he is. Anyways my point was tht this is still about the two main pronouns, he and she, and not 2000 other pronouns. I'm just not so sure why it is so threatening to respect someone on such simple terms.

Also I don't have any real personal experience from this, but I am quite sure the cops do not treat trans people equally on average so I have a feeling that there was more to it there. Especially in Ontario the police are known to be rude and ignorant to non-whites and trans people.

 

[chess-z]

But it is an error. Mutations arise from copying the wrong nucleotides during DNA replication. I have a genetic defect which means I can't eat certain beans. That is an error.

Bro, I don't care about cisnormative and heternormative. I am talking science, and the good thing about science is that it doesn't take sides. I hate it when people use science to push their political agendas.

And you know how much I hate religion

Next time you call my identity an error I swear to god.

You're talking a very specific and myopic view of science, which has a side. Science isn't free from human biases, the astounding lack of research into transgender health is evident of that. You're using ******** psuedo-science to push a politcal agenda right now you hypocrite.

 

[Bananarama]

Adding to lemoncatpower's point, trans women aren't the most respected people in the world. We have to go through verbal abuse and sometimes even violence just because of our identities, and the situation is especially bad for black trans women.

https://news.vice.com/story/black-trans-women-louisiana-murder

After the way we go through all the **** we go through daily, at least calling us by the correct pronoun would be nice.