Hate speech laws - It is good for Nazis to be terrified

[GhostAnime]

Mutations arise from copying the wrong nucleotides during DNA replication

....

What mutation? Who said trans people had a mutation somewhere? Find me or explain to me what happened in their DNA.

Let's see you explain your extensive scientific knowledge instead of throwing out terms. Tell us how much you know about trans people and what's up with their potential "genetic make-up" (excuse me, trans people. I'm using this term unironically. do feel free to correct me on anything though).

 

[lemoncatpower]

Also when people have an extra chromosome, they usually have handicap like symptoms. This does not apply to trans people as they do not have handicap like symptoms and thus talking about XY and XX and YY or XXXY doesn't really apply here as far as I know... please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

[GhostAnime]

also one thing i forgot to add back up there: if you admit animals and other organisms reproduce and change in different and unique ways, why wouldn't humans still have a shared past? it's not like humans are animals, right? lol

of course you then might say we're "primarily binary" because it benefits us through evolution, but again, ought =/= is. we don't call pinkies or ear lobes "errors" because we don't use them. we acknowledge they exist. the only reason you wouldn't consider them errors is because everybody shares these things.

but that isn't what the word "error" should be based on. hence why I used the term cisnormative. your language is biased because you're unfortunately transphobic.

 

[snorlax512]

Next time you call my identity an error I swear to god.

You're talking a very specific and myopic view of science, which has a side. Science isn't free from human biases, the astounding lack of research into transgender health is evident of that. You're using ******** psuedo-science to push a politcal agenda right now you hypocrite.

I've literally talked about Darwinian evolution and some basic genetics. How is that myopic, specific or pseudo at all?

 

[chess-z]

His fixiation on biology is telling. It's thinly veiled homophobia and it's also borderline eugenics. Talking about how our species reproduces and errors in the binary, yikes.

Extra chromosomes can lead to a whole bunch of developmental imparements, but none of them are linked to gender. Also drinking game, every time snorlax ignores the existence of intersex people when talking about the gender binary, take a shot.

I've literally talked about Darwinian evolution and some basic genetics. How is that myopic, specific or pseudo at all?

Darwin was great for inteoducing the idea of evolution, but damn was the dude racist. You're righht, that interpretation of genetics is pretty basic. Slight changes to the Y chromosome can lead to someone with XY chromosomes developing a totally biologically female body. It's myopic cause you can't see past your own clouding biases, you *******.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Also there have been studies showing that LGBT traits help species in reproduction in a variety of ways, naturally. A study with fruit flies show that female offspring of homosexual parents will end up being much more fertile. Also LGBT couples can take care of children of bad parents or dead parents, thus prolonging the life. I've also heard that a gay guy will have more fertile sisters compared to a straight counterpart, same with lesbians with brothers, they'll be more ready to reproduce. Also same sex relations in species help strengthen bonds. I was just looking at links and am to busy to link, but it's a quick google search away if you need a link.

 

[snorlax512]

Nice is see the name calling has started.

Intersex people were originally male or female.

For example 46 XX is a female who has ovaries on the inside, but a penis on the outside, often due to the fetus being exposed to excess male hormones before birth.

Just because a defect results in an erroneous product doesn't mean that biological sex isn't real.

That's like saying the human species is a social construct because there are people born without limbs and stuff.

 

[GhostAnime]

That's like saying the human species is a social construct because there are people born without limbs and stuff.

You're misunderstanding what we mean by social construct.

When something is socially constructed, it is interpreted in a way where human's make judgments that aren't necessarily true or based on science. If you read the article I linked you, you would understand this.

We're not saying the chromosomes of people who have XX and XY aren't different; we're saying our interpretation of that difference is socially constructed. There only being two is the social construction. Also, what the article mentions is that most people don't even know their chromosomes anyway. I doubt you even know yours, so in reality, the only thing we have to go off of are the genitals your doctor looked at after your birth which you also probably don't know.

Intersex people were originally male or female.

... will you ****ing look up the information before you comment? seriously.

this is the problem with New Atheism.

 

[chess-z]

Nice is see the name calling has started.

Intersex people were originally male or female.

For example 46 XX is a female who has ovaries on the inside, but a penis on the outside, often due to the fetus being exposed to excess male hormones before birth.

Just because a defect results in an erroneous product doesn't mean that biological sex isn't real.

That's like saying the human species is a social construct because there are people born without limbs and stuff.

Dude, I never stopped name calling.

lmao what?

biological sex is real, but not intrisically linked to gender, you clownhouse

no its not you willfully ignorant duck pillow

 

[GhostAnime]

I also like that you brought up eugenics, chess-z. eugenics was a popular argument for racism. it was in the science! they had evidence and data to match their racism. even the most 'progressive' people of the time were proponents of eugenics.

then we gave people of color a chance to have equal opportunities (not really tho) and look, race was proven to be socially constructed!

now imagine if we gave ourselves a chance to actually research biological sex more thoroughly or talk about the topic more thoroughly. you will then begin to see how aspects of it are actually socially constructed to fit your worldview rather than be 'backed by science'... not that we don't already have scientists agreeing with the LBGT side of things anyway in present day.

also, remember when homosexuality was a mental disease? let go of your objectivity, dude. listen to the people who've lived these experiences; not everything can be gift wrapped in a google search and atheist forum. your information has to come from those who live it. you don't live anything but a straight white guy's life.

 

[snorlax512]

Dude, I never stopped name calling.

lmao what?

biological sex is real, but not intrisically linked to gender, you clownhouse

no its not you willfully ignorant duck pillow

If you've been paying attention I haven't said anything about gender. This is about whether biological sex is real or merely a social construct, and your pal ghostanime seems to think the latter.

 

[chess-z]

Biological sex is real, sure, but there are more than two sexes.

 

[bobjr]

Scientific discrimination and racism have plagued the STEM community for centuries. It follows a "Well here's how things SHOULD be", ignoring how things have never been like that, or will never be outside of some insane eugenics program. Plus there's usually no proof that things should be like that in the first place, it's just their biases plus their work until they find an answer that's acceptable to them. People will want order in a naturally chaotic system.

Even taking the most basic example, a lot of STEM fields have a low amount of women in their fields, and how much of that is influenced by that false belief that men are better at science and math by default?

If you've been paying attention I haven't said anything about gender. This is about whether biological sex is real or merely a social construct, and your pal ghostanime seems to think the latter.

Why can't it be both?

 

[snorlax512]

Look, a fetus is originally formed with the potential to go two ways: male or female. Not three, not four, but two.

This is sexual differentiation, and is regulated by a bunch of different genetic factors.

Unfortunately, the system screws up sometimes. The body or the brain may not fully masculinise or feminise, and you end up with an intersex individual.

For example, 46 XY Intersex. The person has the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female. It can be caused by a genetic defect which means that the individual lacks an enzyme which is necessary for producing testosterone.

These individuals failed to fully develop in males or females, that doesn't mean they constitute a new sex.

You can interpret it as a new sex if you want to, but it's not. They aren't going a different path, there is no hormone for that third sex. Just because something went wrong doesn't mean that the individual is classed as a different sex, just like how if you're born without limbs you're not classified as a different species.

 

[chess-z]

Do you want eugenics, cause this mindless dedication to outdated science is how we get eugenics.

 

[bobjr]

You're looking at things from a purely biological perspective while totally ignoring the social aspects, and both matter. No one is arguing with you specifically on the purely biological aspects, so you're really missing the forest for the trees here.

There's a reason the social sciences are seeing such a rise, and they're peer reviewed and evidence based just like the hard sciences.

 

[lemoncatpower]

Look, a fetus is originally formed with the potential to go two ways: male or female. Not three, not four, but two.

This is sexual differentiation, and is regulated by a bunch of different genetic factors.

Unfortunately, the system screws up sometimes. The body or the brain may not fully masculinise or feminise, and you end up with an intersex individual.

For example, 46 XY Intersex. The person has the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female. It can be caused by a genetic defect which means that the individual lacks an enzyme which is necessary for producing testosterone.

These individuals failed to fully develop in males or females, that doesn't mean they constitute a new sex.

You can interpret it as a new sex if you want to, but it's not. They aren't going a different path, there is no hormone for that third sex. Just because something went wrong doesn't mean that the individual is classed as a different sex, just like how if you're born without limbs you're not classified as a different species.

On this point, even if it doesn't constitute a new gender, I'm not sure why others should be able to have a say on which gender they have to adhere to. This comes back to the fact that they should be able to choose what gender they want to follow without any recourse from society. And "choose" isn't even a good word whatsoever to put in that sentence, as I can assure you that the choice is to have happpiness (being yourself), not which gender do I want to be.

 

[snorlax512]

On this point, even if it doesn't constitute a new gender, I'm not sure why others should be able to have a say on which gender they have to adhere to. This comes back to the fact that they should be able to choose what gender they want to follow without any recourse from society. And "choose" isn't even a good word whatsoever to put in that sentence, as I can assure you that the choice is to have happpiness (being yourself), not which gender do I want to be.

Right. You should be able to choose whatever gender you wish to identify with, but you shouldn't be able to sue people if they don't agree with your belief.

You should be able to do whatever you wish to pursue happiness, as long as it doesn't extend to other people's liberties. I may be sad if no one tells me 'snorlax is the best pokemon', but I can't force other people to say that to me, even if it makes me happy.

 

[bobjr]

Because favorite Pokemon is totally the same thing as race and sexual orientation.

 

[snorlax512]

Race and sexual orientation are much more personal and important, but the principle still stands. I don't think you should have the right to force other people to submit to your beliefs, no matter how personal or important they are.