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Have remakes outlived their use?

WaterTypeStarter

Well-Known Member
In the early days, it made sense to remake the original Pokémon games as FRLG due to how broken and glitchy their mechanics were as well as the graphics being quite primitive due to hardware limitations of the original Game Boy. However, as both graphics and mechanics have improved over time, is there really much point in remaking games? Haven't played the recent BDSP but it apparently doesn't change much from the original games and the graphics and mechanics are not exactly a significant improvement. And actually is considered by many online to have added less than Platinum. Should Game Freak retire remakes and just focus instead on new games set in older regions (like the Arceus game set in ancient Sinnoh)?
 
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BCVM22

Well-Known Member
Not even a little. The gap between original titles and their eventual remakes is always going to be wide enough to make them worthwhile. There will always be fans whose first exposure to a region is the remakes and not the originals.

It will still be years before Unova is seen again and already it’s a quantum leap from what the DS could do with the originals and what the Switch and future hardware can and will be able to do.

If someone is oblivious enough not to realize how long the periods of time are from original to remake and between remakes, they might answer yes to your question. Beyond that, no.
 

Palamon

Silence is Purple
Yes, 100%. We really don't need remakes anymore, I feel like a lot of games are fine as they are as they're still completely playable and don't have issues like R/B/Y, G/S/C R/S/E do in modern day.
 

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
Yes, 100%. We really don't need remakes anymore, I feel like a lot of games are fine as they are as they're still completely playable and don't have issues like R/B/Y, G/S/C R/S/E do in modern day.
The problem is not everybody has the right system to play the games, and the games themselves will often skyrocket in price beyond Game Freak's or Nintendo's control. They are meant to bring previous games to a modern system with a reduced price.

Now one may counter this and ask if they could simply port previous games to the Switch or what have you, and yes, they could. There may be something like this already in the works for all we know. However, I would say, despite FRLG, HGSS, ORAS, and LGPE all being more enhanced upgrades, BDSP were remade from games that had little QoL. The HMs became worst than with RSE (don't want to have to slap Rock Climb on Torterra to transverse a couple of places), the game is so slow (grab the popcorn, someone OHKO a Blissey), and IDK, despite the complaints, I thought the games were fine. I defnitely enjoyed them enough to warrant a session with them, and I had enough fun going through a remake of a Pokemon game I like comparatively less than other Pokemon games.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Yes, the whole point of remakes is to make old games accessible on new platforms, but they have systems such as VC or NSO for that now. Rebuilding a game to be 90% the original and charging full price for it is just a lose-lose for both sides, it's a waste of time and money for developers and not worth paying for for gamers. If they want to make a full $60 retail game based on an old game it should be a reimagining, not a remake.

As for Pokemon in particular, I think we've seen some great alternatives that shake things up a bit more that would be more worth that $60 price tag. Having sequels/prequels that overhaul or even outright reimagine the game such as BW2 (and yes, BW2 was the same gen as BW, but something similar could still be applied to a more remake-feeling game) and LA would be much better at making older regions feel more modern. A lot of these older games, especially the ones before the series jumped to 3D, would benefit a lot more from taking more liberties on things such as overhauling the map/region design, throwing in a large number of new Pokemon to give much greater variety than the originals could've ever hoped for, a completely new plot that's much better written than the Saturday morning cartoon fare of the older games, and various QoL features, sidequests, and extras to give the games more to do. There's simply far more potential in something like this than the same game all over again but with prettier graphics, and if they just want to cash in on nostalgia for the original experiences they can just put them on VC/NSO to satisfy that. If they're making a full game for $60 out of an old experience it should feel comparable to a current gen game designed for the ground up on the hardware, not just an old game simplistic enough to run on a calculator with an HD coat of paint slapped on.

However, I would say, despite FRLG, HGSS, ORAS, and LGPE all being more enhanced upgrades, BDSP were remade from games that had little QoL. The HMs became worst than with RSE (don't want to have to slap Rock Climb on Torterra to transverse a couple of places), the game is so slow (grab the popcorn, someone OHKO a Blissey), and IDK, despite the complaints, I thought the games were fine. I defnitely enjoyed them enough to warrant a session with them, and I had enough fun going through a remake of a Pokemon game I like comparatively less than other Pokemon games.

DP were a little more than half the cost of BDSP though (IIRC DP cost $35 at retail when they first released). QoL features are great and all, but are those QoL features really worth doubling the price? Especially when, for the same cost as such a remake, you can get an open world game that's infinitely larger and lasts infinitely longer? Considering what you typically get out of full scale retail games on the Switch (and really what home consoles have been able to do for a while), DP -> LA feels like a much more appropriate jump for that double price than DP -> BDSP. The value of BDSP's QoL upgrades feel like they would be more appropriate if the game cost like, $40-$50.
 
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Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
No. There will always be people who want to replay older games as well as those whose first exposure to those regions are remakes. I have a lot of issues with BDSP but I still had more fun with it than I did with SwSh and its DLC. Don't see why we have to settle between something like BDSP or LA when we got both.
 

Victreebong

Gives 'em the slip..
Up to ORAS, the remakes were invaluable. Let’s Go P/E is when they just became unnecessary. Nothing is holding Tendy or GF from releasing emulators on the Switch for our original previous entries. Nothing. They released RBY on 3DS some years back and even allowed transfers to the Gen VI carts! Switch online has GB, NES, SNES, and N64 games. And if you REALLY want the essential nostalgic original experience, you’ll suffer through the early mechanics like the rest of us did. Otherwise, the remakes have been reimagined versions of what we’ve had. And neither of the two recent releases have done anything spectacular that the originals wouldn’t have.

FRLG, HSSS, and ORAS were practically ground-ups and kept the current mechanics intact while adding to them, which made them progressive. ORAS was the last entry in Gen VI, making it the de facto for battling in that Gen. It added new formes, moves, areas, story, items, mechanics, etc. A playthrough of the GBA games compared to the 3DS games would be a stark eye-opener, worthy of the moniker “remake”. BDSP by extension is a side hustle that added absolutely nothing, a “rehash” with a paint job.
 

Luthor

Well-Known Member
I don't think they have. BDSP could have been better but I think its fair to note that BDSP was a bit different given it was outsourced and the company that did the remake probably didn't want to make too many changes (and development may or may not have been impacted by world events). I think its fair to say that i'd be cautious when outsourcing and make sure to take the lessons from this game in future remakes but I still think future remakes could be great.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Not even a little. The gap between original titles and their eventual remakes is always going to be wide enough to make them worthwhile. There will always be fans whose first exposure to a region is the remakes and not the originals.

No. There will always be people who want to replay older games as well as those whose first exposure to those regions are remakes. I have a lot of issues with BDSP but I still had more fun with it than I did with SwSh and its DLC. Don't see why we have to settle between something like BDSP or LA when we got both.

While there is always going to be a need to expose younger generations to games older than they are, remakes are not the only way to do that and I'm not even convinced they're the best way. As has been brought up by me and several others in this thread, emulated versions of the original games can also be distributed through online services such as NSO.

It will still be years before Unova is seen again

Will it? Do we really know that? It might be, but if they don't want a full retail Johto game and think GSC on the NSO is sufficient, they could skip Johto for Unova and release it as soon as next year. And that wouldn't be terribly outlandish either, DP and BW were both on the same hardware, why can't BDSP and BW remakes be as well?

and already it’s a quantum leap from what the DS could do with the originals and what the Switch and future hardware can and will be able to do.

Yes, but are remakes like LGPE and BDSP really taking advantage of that quantum leap? Compare games like DPPt, BW, and BW2 to SwSh, LA, and SV and I'd agree with you. It'd be extremely difficult to argue that that comparison doesn't feel like a night and day difference and utterly laughable to think the DS could've gotten anything remotely resembling those three Switch games. But RBYFRLG to LGPE and DP to BDSP? I wouldn't say that's a quantum leap at all. BDSP is intentionally handcuffing itself to the limitations of the DS and only offering a minor upgrade in graphics, a handful of QoL upgrades, and little else. LGPE had a graphical style a bit closer to more modern games, but largely ignored the archaic design and limited gameplay elements that make Kanto feel so heavily outdated compared to the Switch games. Is that really taking advantage of what the Switch can do?

DP to LA feels more like how a DS to Switch leap should feel IMO. That game truly feels like how a Sinnoh game would be designed from the ground up on the Switch. I think NSO + Legends (or another similar reimagining of an old region) would be a much better combo to get the best of both worlds with revisiting old regions than remake + Legends. If they want to stick to the same design conventions for the sake of not ruining the original experience, just give us the original experience itself for cheap, I don't think it's really worth it for either TPC or the fans to waste time and money recreating the games from the ground up just for them to be extremely similar to the originals.

Up to ORAS, the remakes were invaluable. Let’s Go P/E is when they just became unnecessary. Nothing is holding Tendy or GF from releasing emulators on the Switch for our original previous entries. Nothing. They released RBY on 3DS some years back and even allowed transfers to the Gen VI carts! Switch online has GB, NES, SNES, and N64 games. And if you REALLY want the essential nostalgic original experience, you’ll suffer through the early mechanics like the rest of us did. Otherwise, the remakes have been reimagined versions of what we’ve had. And neither of the two recent releases have done anything spectacular that the originals wouldn’t have.

FRLG, HSSS, and ORAS were practically ground-ups and kept the current mechanics intact while adding to them, which made them progressive. ORAS was the last entry in Gen VI, making it the de facto for battling in that Gen. It added new formes, moves, areas, story, items, mechanics, etc. A playthrough of the GBA games compared to the 3DS games would be a stark eye-opener, worthy of the moniker “remake”. BDSP by extension is a side hustle that added absolutely nothing, a “rehash” with a paint job.

In general I agree with you, but I do think there's reasonable doubt about there being absolutely nothing keeping them from throwing the old games on NSO. The one thing I could see being a barrier to implementing this is if they're having trouble getting NSO to work with Home. Transfers are extremely important to this fanbase, they were upset when they were unable to allow Gen 2 to 3 transfers at all and the VC games allowed transfers to Bank so if they can't similarly allow you to transfer your Pokemon from the NSO games to Home there's going to be a huge backlash. Now for the record I don't think this is the case, I think they have somehow worked out how they can transfer NSO -> Home and we might see Pokemon on NSO announced some time in the coming months, but it's hard to say for sure until it's confirmed.

I don't think they have. BDSP could have been better but I think its fair to note that BDSP was a bit different given it was outsourced and the company that did the remake probably didn't want to make too many changes (and development may or may not have been impacted by world events). I think its fair to say that i'd be cautious when outsourcing and make sure to take the lessons from this game in future remakes but I still think future remakes could be great.

I don't think it's ILCA's fault that BDSP was so similar, I think Masuda was the one that told them to redesign it similar to the originals. When you look at what Game Freak themselves did with games like ORAS and LGPE, ignoring updates from third versions and FRLG, LGPE throwing out all Pokemon that didn't exist in the originals, BDSP fits with Game Freak's MO and if Game Freak themselves were working on the game I don't think it would've turned out terribly differently (at best maybe we would've had SwSh's graphic style, but gameplay wise there probably would've been little to no improvement in the final product).

I think Game Freak or maybe TPC are the ones saying the remakes have to be largely similar because they want the new games to recreate the experience of the originals. Change too much and the feeling of replaying the original game is broken. This is probably part of the reason why Game Freak wanted to work on LA and outsourced BDSP to ILCA. With a game like LA there's no obligation to stick to the script, they can take a lot more liberties to make the experience feel truly new and modern and they can better flex their creative muscles with such a game.
 
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Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
While there is always going to be a need to expose younger generations to games older than they are, remakes are not the only way to do that and I'm not even convinced they're the best way. As has been brought up by me and several others in this thread, emulated versions of the original games can also be distributed through online services such as NSO.
Sure but by remaking instead of remastering you can get the interest of both people who played the source material and those who are experiencing this for the first time. For most remakes I'd rather they be made (especially the Gen 1-3 remakes that made mediocre regions stand out to me more) but with BDSP I would've taken a port of Platinum. I don't think just porting the originals is the best way either. I'd also rather own my games than purchase them through NSO.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
BDSP by extension is a side hustle that added absolutely nothing, a “rehash” with a paint job.
Perfectly said. It’s very clear that Arceus was what they truly cared about and they just gave an “obligatory” remake of games to capitalize more Sinnoh fever without actually caring so they got outsourced.

It’s funny how only a single game was the savior of generation 8
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Sure but by remaking instead of remastering you can get the interest of both people who played the source material and those who are experiencing this for the first time.

That's not necessarily true of remakes instead of emulated ports, there's always going to be some contingent of old fans that have nostalgia for the originals and new fans that are interested in experiencing the game for the first time.

For most remakes I'd rather they be made (especially the Gen 1-3 remakes that made mediocre regions stand out to me more) but with BDSP I would've taken a port of Platinum.

What FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS did was great, especially for their time, but even those kinds of remakes feel a bit dated now because they didn't really make the kinds of larger design and mechanic changes that truly take advantage of the hardware. The biggest flaws I think are in the Pokemon rosters and region designs. They don't really want to add Pokemon from newer generations to the remakes (and definitely not in the main game) leaving the Pokemon selection with variety issues (for example, every game from Gens 1-4 has some kind of Flint scenario with a trainer that can't assemble a full team of their type specialty). And they don't really want to make a lot of changes to the map designs leaving the regions to feel like a product of their original system no matter what system they're remade on. Kanto and Johto feel very flat, small, and blocky because that's all the GB could handle. Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova also feel somewhat blocky because that's all the GBA and DS could handle (or more accurately what Game Freak could handle during the DS era). So even the early remakes, which did more to change and modernize the experience than some of the more recent ones, still feel held back by the remake system. Again, they have to stick to the script in a remake, but said script is outdated so any remake will feel outdated too. An LA type of experience doesn't need to do this and can improve whatever it wants, so it's much better in terms of making the mediocre older regions stand out more. Remakes just feel like an awkward middle ground between old and new and I'm still not seeing a convincing argument as to what they offer that ports and LA style reimaginings don't.

I don't think just porting the originals is the best way either.

Why not?

I'd also rather own my games than purchase them through NSO.

Fair point but this is more a complaint about NSO specifically than the general concept of emulated ports. They can fix this by adopting what Xbox Live does and allow you to download them natively to your device for a fee (now I'm not sure Nintendo will ever allow this because they seem to highly value their back catalogue, but the option exists).
 

Pokefan_1987

Avid Pokemon TCG Card collector.
If there's one thing they could do is do a release compilation of the older games. Let people experience the way they were meant to. I'm sure those games are small enough to cram on a SWITCH cartridge.
It would be great to give players a incentive to own modern casings with the artwork based on the old games instead of not deciding on which Virtual Console releases to buy when you could have them all.

I'm surprised they haven't let the Gamecube games get remasters on SWITCH.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
That's not necessarily true of remakes instead of emulated ports, there's always going to be some contingent of old fans that have nostalgia for the originals and new fans that are interested in experiencing the game for the first time.
Yes both can exist. There are people who would want to play their childhood games with or without any changes.
What FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS did was great, especially for their time, but even those kinds of remakes feel a bit dated now because they didn't really make the kinds of larger design and mechanic changes that truly take advantage of the hardware. The biggest flaws I think are in the Pokemon rosters and region designs. They don't really want to add Pokemon from newer generations to the remakes (and definitely not in the main game) leaving the Pokemon selection with variety issues (for example, every game from Gens 1-4 has some kind of Flint scenario with a trainer that can't assemble a full team of their type specialty).
While nice, having new gen Pokémon appear in older regions isn't something that impacts how I view remakes unless they're new evolutions.
An LA type of experience doesn't need to do this and can improve whatever it wants, so it's much better in terms of making the mediocre older regions stand out more. Remakes just feel like an awkward middle ground between old and new and I'm still not seeing a convincing argument as to what they offer that ports and LA style reimaginings don't.
Again, I'm not seeing why we have to choose between remakes and LA like revists when they did that and BDSP. Playing FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS actually made the first 3 regions fun to play with several features to help them stand out. Remakes offer a chance to play the bulk of the classic games while adding QoL and other features hence why they're remakes instead of remasters. Ports don't give them nearly as much room to do that and LA style games would be practically a different game.
Because the remakes are better than the originals and its a missed opportunity to not try and fix any issues. Plus I'm not buying games I already own again. I'd rather play FRLG and HGSS over the Eshop releases of Gens 1 & 2 any day and I don't see any reason why I would want to do otherwise.
 

Satoshi & Touko

Peanuts aren't just a nut.
The problem is that GameFreak and TPC obviously don't consider it a worthwhile endeavor anymore.
Well, yes and no. It's a worthwhile endeavor to simply tell some company to lazily slap together the same exact game as what is supposed to be "remade" with just a new feature or two and some spit 'n' shine, because... it's a free billion basically. Now, making any effort to actually produce a good-quality remake instead of merely trying to cash in on those nostalgia dollars and nothing more? Not a worthy endeavor in the slightest.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
While nice, having new gen Pokémon appear in older regions isn't something that impacts how I view remakes unless they're new evolutions.

That can have a huge impact actually, having new and different options to use in the game can change how it's played dramatically. For example, in RBY a lot of players struggle with Sabrina because the original games lacked solid counters for Psychic types. But throw in a bunch of newer Dark and Ghost types and a few stronger Bugs? Then it becomes a much easier battle The flip side is also true. What if you give Lance a bunch of later gen Dragons instead of 3 Dragonites that die to Ice Beam? Lance would be much tougher then. It might seem a bit subtle to have some existing Pokemon in an older region, but it could make a huge impact. New regional variants and evolutions could also spice things up even more but even having an extra 100+ Pokemon to work with would significantly improve the battling instead of just having you catch and battle the same handful.

Again, I'm not seeing why we have to choose between remakes and LA like revists when they did that and BDSP. Playing FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS actually made the first 3 regions fun to play with several features to help them stand out. Remakes offer a chance to play the bulk of the classic games while adding QoL and other features hence why they're remakes instead of remasters. Ports don't give them nearly as much room to do that and LA style games would be practically a different game.

My point is that some of the issues with the older games are so baked into the design that they need to make a different feeling game in the same region to fix them. The Pokemon rosters are so narrow and unvaried that they practically need to have completely different wild Pokemon rosters and completely different trainer rosters for them to feel modern. The region design is so archaic that they pretty much need to scrap it and redesign the region from scratch to feel like they belong on a modern console. The QoL features and such are fun extras, but often time they feel not nearly enough to make these older regions feel remotely comparable to newer ones.

Because the remakes are better than the originals and its a missed opportunity to not try and fix any issues.

The LA style games can also fix the QoL issues and so much more.

Plus I'm not buying games I already own again. I'd rather play FRLG and HGSS over the Eshop releases of Gens 1 & 2 any day and I don't see any reason why I would want to do otherwise.

If you're spending full price for a remake that largely plays similarly to the originals, aren't you still buying games you already own again? Better to buy them for cheap digitally and spend full price on the modernized, LA-style games.
 

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
That can have a huge impact actually, having new and different options to use in the game can change how it's played dramatically. For example, in RBY a lot of players struggle with Sabrina because the original games lacked solid counters for Psychic types. But throw in a bunch of newer Dark and Ghost types and a few stronger Bugs? Then it becomes a much easier battle The flip side is also true. What if you give Lance a bunch of later gen Dragons instead of 3 Dragonites that die to Ice Beam? Lance would be much tougher then. It might seem a bit subtle to have some existing Pokemon in an older region, but it could make a huge impact. New regional variants and evolutions could also spice things up even more but even having an extra 100+ Pokemon to work with would significantly improve the battling instead of just having you catch and battle the same handful.
Neither of those battles were something that I figured "oh I'm so glad they added some new gen Pokémon for this!" I'm only going to use Pokémon introduced in that generation so those extra Pokémon are just neat bonuses.
My point is that some of the issues with the older games are so baked into the design that they need to make a different feeling game in the same region to fix them.
I got your point. I just don't agree with it.
The LA style games can also fix the QoL issues and so much more.
Virtually none of the QoL introduced in BDSP would really benefit in LA.
If you're spending full price for a remake that largely plays similarly to the originals, aren't you still buying games you already own again? Better to buy them for cheap digitally and spend full price on the modernized, LA-style games.
Hence why I said I'm for remakes akin to Gens 1-3's. Nothing you've said has given me any reason why I should prefer ports over remakes that at least attempt to fix the games or why their has to be remakes or LA styled games.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Generally speaking, I don't personally see their appeal anymore. I was enthralled by HG/SS when those were released because my old copies of G/S/C no longer worked due to their internal batteries running dry, so having updated versions of the games for the DS was wonderful and convenient. But I wasn't as eager for OR/AS since I still owned the original Gen III cartridges, and I figured that if Nintendo had wanted to work the nostalgia angle, they could've just re-released Ruby and Sapphire on the Virtual Console for the 3DS instead of developing remakes that probably cost twice or three times as much as the Virtual Console versions might've costed. Then BD/SP happened, and now I'm very wary about the concept of remakes.
 
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