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have the current game mechanics made competitive play less fun?
- Thread starter shadorai
- Start date
SBaby
Dungeon Master
Nobody's saying that competitive battling can't be fun. I think it can, and should. What we're saying is that there are things that are done, ranging from how it's run to how people act that makes casual gamers less inclined to do it. Casual gamers (and really gamers in general) want freedom. When you have something that takes that freedom away, people are going to be alienated.
And unfortunately, once you alienate people, it's very difficult to win them back.
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UbersSuck20
#FreeGenesect
I'll never forget this line:
You know what Pokemon is? I'll tell you. Pokemon is a giant POLITOED surrounded by Scizor, Ferrothorn, legendaries and that's it!!!!
The following should happen:
1. Drizzle and Drought should be banned
2. Stealth Rock should be banned
3. Excadrill should be allowed in OU
4.Kyogre should be allowed in OU Ferrothorn should be banned
You know what Pokemon is? I'll tell you. Pokemon is a giant POLITOED surrounded by Scizor, Ferrothorn, legendaries and that's it!!!!
The following should happen:
1. Drizzle and Drought should be banned
2. Stealth Rock should be banned
3. Excadrill should be allowed in OU
4.
randomspot555
Well-Known Member
But no one's "freedom" is being restricted at all, ever.
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Cyberra
pain in the ***
All this EV and IV stuff just goes right over my head. I have not had the chance to play competitively due to incompatible free wireless and excessive encryption I don't know how to change on the home wireless, but if I did have the chance I'd use the team I've trained in-game and to the Pit with IVs or EVs.
IAintObeezy
Ban this Trainer
You know thats the same thing I was thinking when I first got wifi for pokemon...
And in my opinion, it's not just about whether your team can competitively battle others online and stuff (not to say that factor isn't annoying too though) - it's also that ever since I really read into what EVs and IVs are and how they work, I've been uncontrollably obsessed with making sure important pokemon that I catch when I play through games (and I re play through games a lot) are at least close to being as good as the species can be before I decide to use it...not only nature wise (and just the nature factor isn't even so much of a worry since I've memorized the pros and cons of almost all the natures by now), but I usually feel compelled check the IVs of newly caught pokemon that I plan to use...and when it's my new starter, I usually end up recording their gained IVs for 5-10 levels since at level 5 IVs can't be calculated accurately (even at level 15 it's not too accurate, but I've never recorded gained IVs longer than about that lol). Not that I'd restart the game due to bad IVs when my starter is level 15, but over the past year I consistently have soft ressetted a new file until I get a starter with at least decent and helpful, if not awesome, IVs (based on level 5 calculations) and nature. I mean, in a way I'm glad there is this factor and it does make raising pokemon feel more special and complex, but in a sense the ignorance before knowing was somewhat bliss too, you know...
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SBaby
Dungeon Master
Banning Pokemon and movesets from competitive play restricts freedom in competitive play. When you restrict freedom in anything, you alienate casual gamers. This is why competitive play will not win over casual gamers. And unfortunately, competitive battling does have a reputation for doing that.
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randomspot555
Well-Known Member
In what way were you forced into playing with rules you didn't agree to?
SBaby
Dungeon Master
The above post wasn't about my own experiences, but rather how casual gamers typically view competitive battling. I'm just providing an explanation of why they view it that way. Casual gamers take things like the Smogon tiers as an indication of how it's run everywhere. This is why it's hard to win them over.
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Ditto B1tch
Well-Known Member
1. Wheather affects every Pokémon in battle, any player can take advantage of it. I disagree about banning it.
2. I disagree about Stealth Rock.
3. Yes, I agree.
4. I disagree both about Kyogre and Ferrothorn.
But that's not what competetive battling is for. It's to create as much a level field as possible for anyone and whatever Pokemon they want to use. Things that are really random or overpowered are banned for that reason. Competitive battling doesn't have to be for you, and if you want to battle with other rules then nothings stopping you from finding likeminded people and creating a league.
Freedom isn't everything either. Technically if you play Ubers, you're free to play 99% of things that you could want. Would it win? No. I am a much bigger player of Yu-Gi-Oh! than Pokemon, and there decks are better than others, but people still play with their favourite decks, and win less. My point is that you can battle with whatever they allow you, and not just the best 6 Pokemon with the best movesets, IVs and EVs but you won't win nearly as often and due to this, you won't be playing competetively, you'll be playing casually in a competitive environment.
Play how you want. If playing on Smogon isn't for you, then it's not for you.
SBaby
Dungeon Master
You are correct. But the problem is, casual gamers don't care. They view it as an indication that this is how competitive battling has to be. So they don't do it. And yes, admittedly there is a little bit of a fear factor in it. But it comes down to one word, reputation.
It isn't really about me or how I play Pokemon though. It's about the casual gamers and how they choose to play the game.
Casual gamers do play the game the way they want to. But what ends up happening, because people are passionate about Pokemon and the way they feel it should be played, is they (casual gamers) end up in a situation where they start to talk about WHY they don't like competitive battling (usually when topics come up about such). And then competitive players try to justify why they have those rules in place like they do. But what they don't understand is trying to justify it is only going to further alienate casual gamers, because casual gamers don't care. They don't care about why they don't have freedom when battling competitively. They just want to have freedom.
What I am saying is if the competitive community wants to win over casual gamers, they have to give them freedom, instead of making excuses. It isn't an easy issue. I know. I've experienced the Prisoner Dilemma. I know how hard things can get when you have different people with different views. But there has to be some kind of compromise. Otherwise, nothing is going to change, and casual gamers are going to continue to feel alienated.
Anyway, what I personally choose to do isn't really that important, because I already said what I choose to do way back when. I was just trying to explain why it is that casual gamers don't do competitive battling. It's not a pretty explanation, but this is the truth. This is why they don't like it.
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randomspot555
Well-Known Member
I don't want to have the freedom of no rules if that means my opponent can bring Kyogre and I bring in my Butterfree.
Well perhaps they can bring back those special battle restrictions, like light cup, fancy cup, etc., so people who want to like battle with a butterfree or something can battle with people who use weaker pokemon...I think that might be a good idea.
NotSoSkilled
Active Member
As a casual, I really feel it takes too long to get a pokemon up to speed. I'm more of a chess guy; everyone can acess the parts from the get go, using them properly is how you win. Now, should we have all pokemon from the get go? No, but we should lean further in that direction. Chess is far from a casual game for many people, there are hundreds of extremely competitive leagues. Though you're no worse off if its your first time. You don't have to sit in your basement for hours on a DS, learning very little about the actual gameplay, catching the right chess peices. I'd rather spend my time developing my ability to battle, and not my Pokemons.
Restricting freedom can lead to enhancing fairness, and perhaps granting more true freedom. (Socialism! Muahahaha!) Look at the freedom to enslave. It's a freedom, but restricting it infact leads to many more freedoms. Sorry if that's an excessively heavy example, but it's the easiest real world situation to understand. If you ban legendaries, players get the right to use many more weaker Pokemon. Now technically they "could" use them right now, but they can't really have fun in the process. Now banning moves and non legendary Pokemon? I'm partially for that, but there are better ways to go about it. Balance is better than banning. Legendaries are supposed to be OP and in their own league, so it makes sense to actually keep them out of the regular league. Things like Ferroseed are supposed to be balanced with other Pokemon, they just aren't. That just needs fixing. Of course, that's the problem with console and handheld games. Developers can't really go out and change the product the way they can in online PC games. PC gamer master race.
Restricting freedom can lead to enhancing fairness, and perhaps granting more true freedom. (Socialism! Muahahaha!) Look at the freedom to enslave. It's a freedom, but restricting it infact leads to many more freedoms. Sorry if that's an excessively heavy example, but it's the easiest real world situation to understand. If you ban legendaries, players get the right to use many more weaker Pokemon. Now technically they "could" use them right now, but they can't really have fun in the process. Now banning moves and non legendary Pokemon? I'm partially for that, but there are better ways to go about it. Balance is better than banning. Legendaries are supposed to be OP and in their own league, so it makes sense to actually keep them out of the regular league. Things like Ferroseed are supposed to be balanced with other Pokemon, they just aren't. That just needs fixing. Of course, that's the problem with console and handheld games. Developers can't really go out and change the product the way they can in online PC games. PC gamer master race.
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randomspot555
Well-Known Member
But that's not freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!1!!!1!!!!! You're alienating casual gamers you elitist!!!
[this is sarcasm. I'm well aware of stuff like Little Cup and stuff like that. I just find it absurd the argument that's being pushed that the best way to play is with no rules at all. Pick apart some stupid ability ban all you want, but most attempts at re-doing the standard tier system used in competitive battling either fail or end up 95% the same because people like being able to use lesser powered Pokemon without the worry of Beedrill getting curbstomped by Heatran. I don't care how amazing you are. Assuming two opponents are of at least equal intelligence, the trainer with the Heatran will win against the Beedrill every single time]
Most competitive battles take place on simulators which are free and often open source so you get stuff like people designing simulators to play with Gen I in all of its glitch glory days, or where you use fake-mon in battles. Now that still leaves some variables that make it different from battling on a cart, but you can still battle without even owning the game.
The only bone I have to pick is the term Legendary being used, because the only solid rule of being a Legendary Pokemon is beeing deemed as such by Game Freak and co. Sure, they usually have a BST of whatever, but sometimes that distribution doesn't go over well or a typing makes it hard to use anyway. Typically, it is the Cover Legendaries and Event Legendaries (though not always) that are the overpowered ones, not the trios and whatnot.
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I'm just a casual gamer, but on a whim I decided to train an OU Sandstorm Team. I only worried about nature an EV spread, as I have no idea how the RNG software actually works (I've downloaded it twice now but can't figure it out). And you know what? I had a blast crafting my first official team. Trying to figure out what pokemon to add/subtract. What typing I had to account for. Which items to use with which pokemon.
Even if I start battling online and I never win a match, I know and understand the game mechanics so much better now and have tried out new moves I never would have explored in-game (substitute is pretty neat).
My team is all ev trained and now I'm just grinding them up to 100, and I'm looking forward to discovering how they battle as a cohesive unit finally (even if I get blown out of the water
).
Even if I start battling online and I never win a match, I know and understand the game mechanics so much better now and have tried out new moves I never would have explored in-game (substitute is pretty neat).
My team is all ev trained and now I'm just grinding them up to 100, and I'm looking forward to discovering how they battle as a cohesive unit finally (even if I get blown out of the water
).