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have the current game mechanics made competitive play less fun?

People take the game seriously but that doesn't make it not fun. I think being serious is part of the fun because it's a challenge to overcome your opponent.

Competitive battling is great right now. Nowadays people use ev's and iv's for all the pokemon games because it is a necessity. It plays a big part in the meta. A person without ev's and iv's will surely lose to a person with ev's and iv's assuming both players are equally good at competitive play.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
How's competitive battling in itself 'elitist'?

The word 'competitive' implies that you are competing, ie you are battling seriously. That in and of itself can be considered elitist in the same way that making anything else into a competition can be (reference Smash Bros), though there are more reasons than because of the meaning of one word. I don't want to be unfair and only use that word to illustrate the whole elitism thing.

Here's a small sample of the reasons why it's elitist to me. In my experience (and right on this site many many times, for that matter), competitive battlers tend to think they're better than everyone else. Whenever someone criticizes an aspect of competitive battling (especially with Smogon-related things; no fooling, competitive battlers worship those people) even in a minor sense, they're confronted about it by the competitive battling crowd, like they're somehow the bad guy. Competitive battlers are really good at playing the victim. I've seen this right on this site. I've literally watched people that criticize competitive battling get chased off this site because of it.

Another reason is the whole 'hardcore fan' thing. Hardcore fans of anything tend to act elitist, and you won't find a bigger forum for hardcore Pokemon fans than in the competitive battling section. Seriously, hardcore fans scare me. And I really wish you had been around here in 2006, because if you were you would probably know why.

Those are just a couple examples. If I listed all the reasons why I consider it to be elitist, this would be a tl;dr post.

Granted, there are some people that aren't like that, but not many. An overwhelming majority of competitive battlers act like that.
 
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randomspot555

Well-Known Member
The word 'competitive' implies that you are competing, ie you are battling seriously.

Are you not competing against the Bug Trainer on Route 1? They give you prize money if you win. You give them prize money if you lose.

Here's a small sample of the reasons why it's elitist to me. In my experience (and right on this site many many times, for that matter), competitive battlers tend to think they're better than everyone else.

Some people are jerks. Sorry, but that's life. That doesn't mean their activites make them jerks. That doesn't mean only jerks do those activities. It just means those are jokes who participate in an activity. Generalizing and stereotyping is not exactly a good way to make it seem like you are truly the victim and those other guys are bullies.

I'm sorry some guy from some website was mean to you. That doesn't mean competitive battling is somehow inherently horrible and only attracts jerks, or that they "chase" people off of websites, or that they "attack" people in forums. In my observance, a lot of people here view a discussion involving other opinions and you know, discussion, as being "attacked".
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Are you not competing against the Bug Trainer on Route 1? They give you prize money if you win. You give them prize money if you lose.

No, you load the game when you lose. Not to mention, you're battling them to get them out of your way. Difference. Plus, you're not going to lose against an AI-controlled Bug Trainer, unless you're doing it deliberately. This is really grasping at straws to rationalize the concept of competitive battling.

Understand that I personally have no problem with the actual concept of competitive battling. Other than a few aspects of it that I would personally change (such as introducing the idea that it's not true competitive battling if you ban moves or Pokemon that are used in-game; and this is what caused them to start bashing me and acting like they're better than me, by the way, which I had come to expect from the competitive battlers by that point). No, it's those kind of people you tend to see in that forum, and not the concept that I take the biggest issue with.


Some people are jerks. Sorry, but that's life. That doesn't mean their activites make them jerks. That doesn't mean only jerks do those activities. It just means those are jokes who participate in an activity. Generalizing and stereotyping is not exactly a good way to make it seem like you are truly the victim and those other guys are bullies.

I'm sorry some guy from some website was mean to you. That doesn't mean competitive battling is somehow inherently horrible and only attracts jerks, or that they "chase" people off of websites, or that they "attack" people in forums. In my observance, a lot of people here view a discussion involving other opinions and you know, discussion, as being "attacked".

It was several people here, on this site, and it wasn't necessarily all to me personally. The only thing that was said to me here, was that I was 'ganging up on them', when I was bringing up criticisms of competitive battling. And the thing is, competitive battlers love to do exactly what you are doing here, with the whole 'generalizing' and 'stereotyping'. Whenever someone brings up the elitism of it, it's always 'stereotyping'. Though you may have done it inadvertainly (ie I don't think you're elitist), you've provided a classic textbook example of what I mean when I say they're good at playing the victim. Sorry, but they do this all the time, and it really just seems like an excuse they use to avoid having to defend their position.
 
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Zenotwapal

have a drink on me
I'll be honest. I never really liked competitive battling. I tried it, but it's way too elitist. If it ever stopped being elitist, maybe I'd try it again. But I don't think that's going to happen.

So I just play the games normally and only battle people that I've actually met in real life. It's pretty much the same thing anyway in terms of mechanics, when you think about it. Not to mention, it's more fun to see their faces as you battle them, rather than battling names with no faces.

Well then you call someone an "elitist" you're pretyt much warranting a negative reaction out of them.
Maybe YOUR the elitist here. Your opinions on this matter sure are accusatory.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
Well then you call someone an "elitist" you're pretyt much warranting a negative reaction out of them.
Maybe YOUR the elitist here. Your opinions on this matter sure are accusatory.

My 'opinions' on the matter are observations moreso than 'opinions'. But again, this is what I've come to expect, so I'm not surprised. My mention about elitism isn't something I simply 'decided' to use. A majority of competitive battlers act that way. Therefore, that must mean it is by in large elitist. Therefore, that is why I don't do competitive battling anymore.

If this changes, then I might go back to it. But I don't foresee that happening.

Again, I'm not saying it's everybody. But it's definitely a vast majority of them.
 
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randomspot555

Well-Known Member
It is so such an elitist thing that they provide tutoring programs for those new to competitive battling to learn. Man, what a bunch of elitist jerks!

I'm sure your interactions with like, 12 or 15 or 25 people or whatever, are totally representative of the thousands of people that participate in competitive battling on Wi-Fi, in simulators, and at official tournaments and are substantial to make factual statements such as those you've made.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
It is so such an elitist thing that they provide tutoring programs for those new to competitive battling to learn. Man, what a bunch of elitist jerks!

I'm sure your interactions with like, 12 or 15 or 25 people or whatever, are totally representative of the thousands of people that participate in competitive battling on Wi-Fi, in simulators, and at official tournaments and are substantial to make factual statements such as those you've made.

You do realize that I have not once mentioned Smogon when talking about competitive battling on this topic, right? You should understand that this in and of itself is an accomplishment. No, what I'm talking about in this case are things that I've seen here, right on this site. So it really has relatively little to do with other forums or sites.

Anyway, I was weighing whether or not I should respond to the rest of your remark, since said remark is purely speculative and not factual (not to mention you're really grasping at straws here, bringing tournaments into the argument to try and make it sound like you've got DNA evidence to argue my point). There is no way for you to tell how many competitive battles I've been in, because I've never told anybody how many competitive battles I've been in. But no matter what number I could conceivably give, I'm sure you'll try and discredit what I've said by bringing up things that quite frankly I really don't care about. Give up, seriously. It's an excercise in futility, and you're not going to convince me until you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's changed. Instead, I'll say this much. I'm not the only person that views competitive battling in this manner.


Anyway, getting back to the original topic at hand (since this has gone waaaaaaaaay off base). As far as whether or not I think the current game mechanics have made it less fun, I'm probably not the right person to ask this. It's probably better to ask people that are more involved in competitive battling, since they would have better input than I would regarding the matter.
 
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Zenotwapal

have a drink on me
You do realize that I have not once mentioned Smogon when talking about competitive battling on this topic, right? You should understand that this in and of itself is an accomplishment. No, what I'm talking about in this case are things that I've seen here, right on this site. So it really has relatively little to do with other forums or sites.

Anyway, I was weighing whether or not I should respond to the rest of your remark, since said remark is purely speculative and not factual (not to mention you're really grasping at straws here, bringing tournaments into the argument to try and make it sound like you've got DNA evidence to argue my point). There is no way for you to tell how many competitive battles I've been in, because I've never told anybody how many competitive battles I've been in. But no matter what number I could conceivably give, I'm sure you'll try and discredit what I've said by bringing up things that quite frankly I really don't care about. Give up, seriously. It's an excercise in futility, and you're not going to convince me until you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's changed. Instead, I'll say this much. I'm not the only person that views competitive battling in this manner.


Anyway, getting back to the original topic at hand (since this has gone waaaaaaaaay off base). As far as whether or not I think the current game mechanics have made it less fun, I'm probably not the right person to ask this. It's probably better to ask people that are more involved in competitive battling, since they would have better input than I would regarding the matter.

This is a SEVERE case of the hypocrisy. You practically ooze it.

Current Game mechanics have enhanced competitive play by the way.
 

Inferno Vulpix

Despicably Average
I think that, disregarding minority extremes, the term 'elitist' referred to the average competitive battler is not incorrect. It's a little exaggerated, since the word has some negative connotations with it, negative connotations that are not fully shared by the average competitive battler, but, to an extent, that is what they are.

Since a player starts off almost always as a casual player, going through the game sometimes with only a rudimentary grasp of strategy. Later on, after a few years of owning the game, it's natural for the person to develop better skills for the more tough challenges, and see themselves as better than they once were.

This pattern continues for when they decide to test their skills against real people. They see themselves face people of equal and greater skills, and soon see their current tactics to be insufficient for the challenge. Thus, as they had done when facing, say, the Battle Frontier, they improve their strategy. And, as with the Battle Frontier, they end up considering themselves better players because of it.

Just as we tend to look upon trainers who beat the game with an overleveled Charizard and see ourselves as better, with our more balanced and effective teams, with pity for their ignorance and a little condescension for us being 'better', so such competitive battlers tend to look upon those who build their teams with sweepers and don't use ultra-complex strategies with pity and condescension. While in this case there is something to be said for playing both styles, I can't begrudge the competitive battlers for feeling the way they do, seeing as we feel the same way towards another simpler style of playing.

Also note that when I say 'we', I use it for the fanbase as a whole and I recognize that exceptions do exist, so there's no reason to speak up if, on those grounds, you feel differently from what I've stated.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
You do realize that I have not once mentioned Smogon when talking about competitive battling on this topic, right?

That's nice. But they are the largest community that is specifically and almost exclusively dedicated to competitive battling. Sure there's other things they do, but just like SPP is dedicated to the games and the anime, Smogon is dedicated to competitive battling.

So yes, when I bring up something to counter your factual statement that the majority of competitive battlers are elitist jerk meanies, I think that it coming from the largest community of competitive battlers refutes it quite well.

Anyway, I was weighing whether or not I should respond to the rest of your remark, since said remark is purely speculative and not factual

I'm not claiming any facts. You are. You are saying the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitist. So prove it.

And no, your anecdotal interactions of battling experience with people is not at all representative of the thousands upon thousands of competitive battlers. So don't try to pass off your factual statement that the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitists due to your personal experience .

(not to mention you're really grasping at straws here, bringing tournaments into the argument to try and make it sound like you've got DNA evidence to argue my point).

The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. You made the claim. I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to proof your statement correct.
 

Pkmn Breeder Jack

Static owns you.
My thoughts as a former casual-turned-competitive player that quit competitive play near the end of 4th gen era who hardly plays anymore:

The nature of being competitive means looking for better ways to do something to get an edge on the competition. In pokemon battling, Natures, IVs, EVs, Held Items, Damage calcs, etc. are all ways for a player to have an edge against opponents. By default, this results in the competitive player being strictly better at battling in PvP matches than a non-competitive player. This is not elitism, as it seems to have been postulated above. Elitism results when a competitive player views non-competitive players as inferior gamers and excludes or insults them for this reason. This does not happen to every competitive player ever.

To compare, I personally love playing (American) football. I love playing catch, running plays in my backyard with friends, and improving my ability to play the game, but I've never played it in an organized league of any sort. Random NFL player is better at football at me. Being an NFL player doesn't make him an elitist. You cannot categorically assume that all NFL players are elitists because they are better at football than non-NFL players. In the same way, you can't make the assumption that all competitive battlers are elitist, or that competitive play makes people elitist, just because they are better at battling than non-competitive players.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
That's nice. But they are the largest community that is specifically and almost exclusively dedicated to competitive battling. Sure there's other things they do, but just like SPP is dedicated to the games and the anime, Smogon is dedicated to competitive battling.

So yes, when I bring up something to counter your factual statement that the majority of competitive battlers are elitist jerk meanies, I think that it coming from the largest community of competitive battlers refutes it quite well.



I'm not claiming any facts. You are. You are saying the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitist. So prove it.

And no, your anecdotal interactions of battling experience with people is not at all representative of the thousands upon thousands of competitive battlers. So don't try to pass off your factual statement that the "vast majority" of competitive battlers are elitists due to your personal experience .



The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. You made the claim. I don't have to prove you wrong, you have to proof your statement correct.

Make no mistake. I'm not saying that Smogon is Prince Charming. I'm just trying to leave them out of it this time.

You can say 'a few people don't represent everybody' until you're blue in the face. But at the end of the day, every person that does competitive battling represents it, much in the same way that every person here represents the Pokemon fanbase. So the way they act is going to be an indication to people of how things are run. That's the way it is.

And finally, I shouldn't have to prove anything. All I'm doing is telling you why I don't like competitive battling. I know it's an unpopular view. I admit it. But that's the way I see it.
 
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telivisionhead

Well-Known Member
Not really. They aren't really anything, the thing that bothers me is hacking if anything!
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
Make no mistake. I'm not saying that Smogon is Prince Charming.

Yeah, those elitist jerks poopie heads! What a bunch of horrible monsters they are for tutoring people who want to get into competitive battling! They're so elite, they try to teach newcomers how to do it!

Wait, that's like, the opposite of elite.

You can say 'a few people don't represent everybody' until you're blue in the face.

It also helps that it is, in fact, true. Your personal experience is known as anecdotal evidence, and is in no way, shape, or form, a scientifically balanced sample where you can draw conclusions based on.

And considering your tone and demeanor, I'm not entirely ruling out that you're the reason why your experience with competitive battling is horrible. You go into it with the mindset that only elitist jerks play it. And surprise! Your experience is a bad one! This is known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

the person who ruined But at the end of the day, every person that does competitive battling represents it, The

No they don't. Each person represents themselves.

much in the same way that every person here represents the Pokemon fanbase.

Again, no, they don't. If someone from this forum went on a shooting rampage, then by your logic, all Pokemon fans are now serial killers, or at least potential serial killers.

So the way they act is going to be an indication to people of how things are run.

Again, those horrible elitist jerk poopie heads try to help people learn competitive battling! Man, they are so horrible!

I know it's an unpopular view.

You know why it's an unpopular view? Because people typically don't like when you make broad generalizations about a huge group of people based on hearsay.

And finally, I shouldn't have to prove anything. All I'm doing is telling you why I don't like competitive battling.

Yes. We understand. Some guy or guys somewhere were "mean" to you and therefore you hate everything they're associated with.
 
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SBaby

Dungeon Master
Yeah, those elitist jerks poopie heads! What a bunch of horrible monsters they are for tutoring people who want to get into competitive battling! They're so elite, they try to teach newcomers how to do it!

Wait, that's like, the opposite of elite.



It also helps that it is, in fact, true. Your personal experience is known as anecdotal evidence, and is in no way, shape, or form, a scientifically balanced sample where you can draw conclusions based on.

And considering your tone and demeanor, I'm not entirely ruling out that you're the reason why your experience with competitive battling is horrible. You go into it with the mindset that only elitist jerks play it. And surprise! Your experience is everyone (I'm sorry, "vast majority") is an elitist jerk doo doo head.



No they don't. Each person represents themselves.



Again, no, they don't.



Again, those horrible elitist jerk poopie heads try to help people learn competitive battling! Man, they are so horrible!



Yes. We understand. Some guy or guys somewhere were "mean" to you and therefore you hate everything they're associated with.

Alright. Since you're essentially doing nothing more than trolling at this point, I don't see a reason to continue this discussion. The fact is, I don't like competitive battling. And to be completely honest, you've convinced me more than ever that it is still elitist and I should continue to avoid it.
 
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T-Bolt

Electrifying.
Alright. Since you're essentially doing nothing more than trolling at this point, I don't see a reason to continue this discussion. The fact is, I don't like competitive battling, and frankly, you've convinced me more than ever that I should still avoid it.

He isn't trolling at all. Those are all valid counter-arguments. You're the one who refuses to accept them.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
He isn't trolling at all. Those are all valid counter-arguments. You're the one who refuses to accept them.

It's quite simple. When the elitism stops, I may consider trying it again. I honestly can't figure out why that's so hard to understand.
 
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randomspot555

Well-Known Member
^^^ Again, what elitism? I don't see any of it. They are literally trying to teach new people. That is the exact opposite of what an elitist community would do.

Alright. Since you're essentially doing nothing more than trolling at this point,

I'm sorry you think "responding" and "conversation" is trolling. I could've sworn this is a discussion forum or something.

If you can't take the heat of *gasp* someone quoting you and responding to you, then get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.

And to be completely honest, you've convinced me more than ever that it is still elitist and I should continue to avoid it.

I haven't done any competitive battling in like, 4 years. I probably have spent more time watching the anime than EV training Pokemon.

OMIGOD anime fans are elitists!!!!
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
I haven't done any competitive battling in like, 4 years. I probably have spent more time watching the anime than EV training Pokemon.

OMIGOD anime fans are elitists!!!!

It's not what a person is a fan of that makes them look elitist. It's their attitude toward others. But it does strike me as odd why you defend competitive battling so fiercely if you haven't done it in 4 years. This is more of a curiosity than anything else, though.

Wow, I think this is the most I've posted on this site in quite a long time.
 
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