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Having more filler does more than just screw with plot and pacing

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Don't forget BW's Decolore Islands.

Anything after the BW League may count, since it was all awkwardly placed.
There was TP arc which was after the league but it was so boring except for few episodes that they were same as fillers. DA arc was a low point in the anime's history.

I don't know if it's just me, but early XY felt like a continuation of Decolore Islands at times with it's fillers.
The fillers of XY were also stale, thats pretty much the same with filler after AG. They could have probably given focus to serena during this time along with ash who was already busy. I think writers goofed up big time.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
In fairness we did get the male companion doing more for once during that early period, and more TR-centric fillers that didn't suck.

I dont thnk even clemont was also doing that much most of his focussed episodes were boring fillers as well, i think bonnie was more active during first 30 episodes.
 

Kintaro

Banned
Early XY was a bit slow, but there's still plenty of good eps there. Bonnie/Clemont had a lot of focus back then even if Serena didn't do much at first.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The fillers of XY were also stale, thats pretty much the same with filler after AG. They could have probably given focus to serena during this time along with ash who was already busy. I think writers goofed up big time.

Truthfully the fillers got worse when they switched focus from Clemont to Serena in XY. I don't think her character could handle the goofy storylines on her own compared to his 'nerdy scientist' persona. The Pokevision one and crossdressing one had the usual blunders of regular Pokemon filler.

I dont thnk even clemont was also doing that much most of his focussed episodes were boring fillers as well, i think bonnie was more active during first 30 episodes.

What I mean is Clemont's character was goofy and had niches, they were more capable of putting him in an episodic story and it'd be fun. Even against TR they thought of more creative or funny moments against him.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
There was TP arc which was after the league but it was so boring except for few episodes that they were same as fillers. DA arc was a low point in the anime's history.

Yeah, that's why I said "may." While the TP arc did happen, it was so heavily altered that it wanted to be its own thing and didn't feel like canon stuff because there really wasn't any progress done for the main group except for N.

It was a struggle during that period imo, and people were justifying that it was realistic for her to take her time like that.
She didn't seem to have any friends outside the ones she made in the journey.

That should have tipped us off she liked to take her sweet time. Realistically speaking, she was a slowpoke in her own life. No wonder she kept that old rag with her for years!

Anyhow, the filler in XY was bad. Really bad. It just made the writers run out of stuff after the 7th gym and could have developed all the grand schemes they were sure were what they were.
 
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Kintaro

Banned
Truthfully the fillers got worse when they switched focus from Clemont to Serena in XY. I don't think her character could handle the goofy storylines on her own compared to his 'nerdy scientist' persona. The Pokevision one and crossdressing one had the usual blunders of regular Pokemon filler.

The crossdressing ep was great.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The crossdressing ep was great.

But it was, like so many other fillers, a half finished plot. Serena couldn't finish the battle nor could they figure a funny way for things to reach breaking point for her, so they had TR intervene and Ash DEM cure himself.

Clemont at least had odd episodes he didn't rely on bad plot devices or at fail just had a GOOD Team Rocket face off. This is the likely reason they could think up a special for him first.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
She didn't seem to have any friends outside the ones she made in the journey.

That should have tipped us off she liked to take her sweet time. Realistically speaking, she was a slowpoke in life.
Maybe, but knowing the franchise market, taking time is a big no-no imo. The writers should have regretted not to get ahead of her development at the cost of realism.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Kintaro said:
Early XY was a bit slow, but there's still plenty of good eps there. Bonnie/Clemont had a lot of focus back then even if Serena didn't do much at first.

Pacing issues aside, I did think that XY had good fillers in the beginning such as the Rocket-dan cosplay episode. That was one of XY's few comedic highlights for me.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Pacing issues aside, I did think that XY had good fillers in the beginning such as the Rocket-dan cosplay episode. That was one of XY's few comedic highlights for me.

Since TR are so often used as plot devices and the twerps are usually goal focused rather than designed to hold episodic stories on their own, how well they are written often makes or breaks the filler material. Probably why XY's dropped like a rock when they dumbed them down again.

Johto is one of the most evident since the twerps were actually stuck in a rut for most of that series, with Ash's gym quest spaced out and the two companions only sporadically being much more than background exposition, but for many episodes TR were written well, having funny banter and face offs with the twerps that made them decent villain protagonists of sorts.

SM is a double edged sword since while it relies on them less in favour of making the twerps more vibrant, they are still generically handled as antagonists, meaning it's a very wobbly road whenever they go back to utilising them. You can often tell how well written each of the protagonists are by how much they rely on TR as padding.
 

pokedigijedi

Saiyan Jedi
Unfortunately most, if not all, shows have filler although some like Pokemon are worst with it than others. I know there's a reason for it but there comes a point when it just feels like the show is in love with filler, again Pokemon is easily one of the worst offenders of it.

But yes I agree it would be nice if there was less filler and more plot and development episodes, if we had more of those maybe Ash's Alola team (and some past teams) would be a lot more impressive looking, but no the writers always have way more filler episodes than they have Pokemon to debut, I honestly believe they prefer filler episodes over the plot relevant episodes and especially the development related episodes and there is no one out there who can change my mind on it (they're free to believe whatever they want, I'm just stubborn)
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I consider SM at least having a failsafe for it (even if it maybe over uses it) since it bothered to give Ash himself a more colourful personality that works better in more episodic stories. If they can get TR back to their OS glory, I'd dare say the filler would be as worthwhile as the better main arcs again.
 

Kintaro

Banned
I think a lot of hate for filler here is exaggerated. Sure some filler can be very boring, but a lot of it in any of the seasons isn't too bad. And when you marathon through older sagas and watch multiple eps in a row instead of waiting for 1 new ep a week, the fillers go by in a flash. There's always plenty of events between them, like new captures/evolutions, Gym, Contest, a character development ep, a recurring rival appears, a villain appears, etc.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Maybe, but knowing the franchise market, taking time is a big no-no imo. The writers should have regretted not to get ahead of her development at the cost of realism.
Less realism and more fatal character flaw at that point. I'm not quite sure we'd have been shown accurately that she struggled to commit to anything if she just decided on something right away. Whether that's lost in the shuffle for some is an entirely different issue, but I'd say the core of how she was meant to be represented was fine to be taking time with, and remained consistent through the whole series, rather than being dropped.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Less realism and more fatal character flaw at that point. I'm not quite sure we'd have been shown accurately that she struggled to commit to anything if she just decided on something right away. Whether that's lost in the shuffle for some is an entirely different issue, but I'd say the core of how she was meant to be represented was fine to be taking time with, and remained consistent through the whole series, rather than being dropped.
Meh, I still didn't like how she was handled overall. Once she got her goal they dedided to rush her goal so that she can stay as a background character once again, while they focus solely on Ash. Yeah, so much for making her goal progress unrealistic as well.

Oh well, what's done is done. At the time, XY being my 1st full series it was a shock to see those issues. But I got my fix about her and moved on, and kinda accepted the reality of the show, which is why I complain less about SM despite its issues.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Less realism and more fatal character flaw at that point. I'm not quite sure we'd have been shown accurately that she struggled to commit to anything if she just decided on something right away. Whether that's lost in the shuffle for some is an entirely different issue, but I'd say the core of how she was meant to be represented was fine to be taking time with, and remained consistent through the whole series, rather than being dropped.

I think the problem was that the dithering plot line only took up a handful episodes and even in some of those she felt a bit like a side attraction (the Pokevision episode was among the few early episodes where she was primary focus, and with it's jerkishly written Fennekin and standard TR structure, it's not exactly a standout one). Besides that slow buildup she didn't contribute much early on besides her love interest gimmick and occasional damsel in distress. Add to that XY's more enforced action and early episodes making even Team Rocket more of a struggle to stop, Serena wasn't really equipped to be proactive in the filler stories (compared to Clemont who was already a pro battler and had his inventing/smart guy niche on top of a comic relief personality).

I think there was a reason May's dithering was MUCH shorter and that's because the writers were struggling with twerp centric filler without some sort of goal focus. BW tried it full on a few times but it was still kind of in primordial stages, and even in SM you can tell some of the companions just aren't cut out for holding entire stories on their own.
 
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Apslup

Feelin' Fine.
I dont thnk even clemont was also doing that much most of his focussed episodes were boring fillers.

What about the episode where Clemont got Luxio? (XY48: Clemont's Campus of Memories! An Electrifying Reunion!) I thought that episode was pretty good and added a lot to his character.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
What about the episode where Clemont got Luxio? (XY48: Clemont's Campus of Memories! An Electrifying Reunion!) I thought that episode was pretty good and added a lot to his character.

He got an episode here and there after a while but i dont recall him being that active even at the start of the series, as for luxio it was good episode but in the long term it didn't do anythng major, luxray's only role was to be a legit threat to ash in the lumiouse gym and after that all the bonding was forgotten, if anything bonnie was more active than him and her focus started to diminish once serena started to get more active.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
It is trying to follow the games, though, so it really is filler when no visible progress is made.

I agree with you on what the definition of filler is in Pokémon. I'm saying that the definition is different in Naruto (and most anime).

Pokémon: nothing major contributing to the overall plot happens in this episode/you can skip this episode and not be confused on future episodes
other anime: this content did not come from the manga/it is anime-original content

Because of these two different definitions, I'm saying you can't really have the conversation y'all were having earlier this thread regarding filler percentages and stuff. You can't compare the two when the word filler means something totally different. Naruto having "more" filler than Pokémon means nothing when the word filler is talking about something totally different in Naruto.

Don't forget BW's Decolore Islands.

Anything after the BW League may count, since it was all awkwardly placed.

The villain team happening after the league isn't filler - Kalos did the same thing.

the Stolen Stones

is the worst episode in the history of Pokémon.

Pokevision one

This isn't even a filler. 3 key things happen in it. Aria debuts. Fennekin overcomes its fear of the mud. Fennekin learns Flamethrower.

Pacing issues aside, I did think that XY had good fillers in the beginning such as the Rocket-dan cosplay episode. That was one of XY's few comedic highlights for me.

I liked that Inkay kept dressing up as Pikachu multiple future times.

rush her goal so that she can stay as a background character once again, while they focus solely on Ash.

Rushing to finish the girl's goal to get to Ash is nothing new. Misty's Whirl Cup happened before Ash's 8th badge (actually way before, as he only had 5), May's Grand Festival happened before Ash's 7th Frontier Symbol, Dawn's Grand Festival happened before Ash's 8th badge. Girls' stuff happening before Ash's 8th badge has been the norm more than it has not, actually. Only twice has it been otherwise: Iris vs. Drayden happened after Ash's 8th badge, and in Hoenn, May's 5th ribbon actually happened after Ash's 8th badge, which was a nice change actually, to have that whole section of episodes just focusing on May with her 5th ribbon and her Grand Festival back-to-back with no Ash interruption. But in general, to pretend this is a Serena-only problem is a joke.

Wow, after typing that last paragraph, I actually took a look at the series of Hoenn episodes I mentioned to make sure I was right, and even THEN there was an Ash-centric interruption between May's 5th ribbon and Grand Festival, even though they happened back-to-back, as he met Morrison between Pacifidlog Jam and The Ribbon Cup Caper. Wow, so even the one time I thought they actually focused on the girl for an extended time, even that had an Ash interruption. Wow. Anyway, clearly not a Serena-specific issue.

her focus started to diminish once serena started to get more active.

I disagree. Bonnie played a key role in XY&Z as the caretaker of Squishy, without which a lot of crucial plot elements from that season couldn't have happened. If anybody took a back seat in XY&Z it was Clemont, but even for him they tried to play up the Xerosic rivalry a little and even gave him a post-arc fight with him. You know, for all the hate XY&Z gets from SM lovers on this forum, it really actually made an attempt to have all our characters do things, compared to let's say, Johto Misty, Max for his entire existence, or DP Brock.
 
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