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Heavy Offense which peaked 1550 CRE on the Smogon Shoddy Ladder.

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Gamefreak, Jan 29, 2010.

  1. Gamefreak

    Gamefreak Well-Known Member

    Edit:This team reached 1550 on the Smogon ladder, beat several great names, went 3-3 in the Smogon Frontier, won two PBC annual tournaments, won the regileague open, was used by my friends on Smogon to great success, and like.. was very successful for me for its time overall in things I just can't remember.

    #20 LIZARD_MAN 1550.1240969

    Ok, here is my Heavy Offense team. I worked on it with my buddy Skynet, and it got him to number 10 on the shoddy ladder a while back. Heavy Offense is different from your standard team. It is all about setting screens, and you want all your sweepers to be walled by the same things. There is many kinds of HO teams. Physical Heavy Offense, Sub Special Heavy Offense, Fighting Heavy Offense, Water Heavy Offense/Rain Dance, Dragon Heavy Offense, etc. All those groups are walled by different things. You want all your stuff to be walled by the same things, simply because your opponent most likely will only have one wall who can deal with your sweepers. Most people run like 2 physical sweepers, which mean you only need one Physical Wall. However, this team is theorymon at its finest, it takes advantage of that fact. Your typical standard team cannot deal with 5 physical sweepers. You just keep on setting up, and break through that one wall, and the rest of your sweepers pretty much cannot be walled. In Heavy Offense, you rarely switch, only if you have to. You just want to think, sacerfice, and die. You don't want pokemon to set-up against your frail team, so we sacrifice instead. It also usually cripples the pokemon which tries to set-up against you. Just force switches, set up on those free turns, and when your pokemon die... simply send in something you can scare something off wise and get more free turns. You have to constantly think about the late game with HO, simply because if you sacrefice the wrong sweeper at the wrong time, you will probably be fighting an uphill battle, struggling to break through. Against offensive teams, you want to have your DDers late game to outspeed, and sweep their frail pokemon. Against defensive stallish teams, you want your SDers to break through their multiple walls with much more ease. You do not run choice pokemon in HO because it forces you to switch, giving them free turns, or worse... they can set up on you. So 5 set up sweepers is usually the way to go. The team also doesn't run bulk like other teams because you don't need to switch, and switching needs bulk. Dual screens also fortifies the aforementioned bulk that teams usually like.

    Anyways, I explained Heavy Offense since it is very different from your typical "balanced" team. This is my list. This is standard Physical HO. Minimizing prediction is very good. Why predict and play great all game only to get hax'd? Every player has a different opinion on the best play is. This is very relavent to the ladder considering you never know who you are fighting. You could lose to 5 idiots from overpredicting which isn't the case with this team. Oh, fighting Earthworm? Well, surely you can play great against him, but you won't have to worry about getting outrpredicted either! Short games are great for riding up the ladder, and this team is great at doing just that.

    Azelf @ Light Clay
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Light Screen
    - Stealth Rock
    - Reflect

    Azelf is probably the best lead HO has. It gives the team early rocks that HO needs, which is what other Dual Screen leads hold Bronzong lack. It is quick, so it at least gets Rocks down in the end. The EV's give bulk since I am not running an attack move, which means Sash isn't needed so I can run Light Clay. I also use Taunt because it stops Gengar from subbing against me, and it allows me to set-up on certain pokemon without getting burned. I considered Encore Ape, Dual Screen Bronzong, Dual Screen Latias and Alakazam, or Aerodactly as leads... however, Azelf has just been way too sexy besides the fact that Scarf Tar says gimme your ***. However, who cares? It lets me set up a Swords Dance with Lucario, or Scizor when they are locked into Crunch/Pursuit. Azelf has constantly came out on top against most leads hold Aerodactyl and Dragonite with getting 1-2 screens up alongside Stealth Rock, so it is probably here to stay. Dual screens make your sweepers twice as threatening. When your opponent's checks fail what they are meant to check, Heavy Offense can be very frightening to play against. I chose not to run Explosion on Azelf for one reason. You simply put yourself at a disadvantage. When you run Heavy Offense, you want to know what your opponent has early game so you can scare something off and get those free turns. If you kill something, and have to send something in when your opponent is doing the same, you simply cannot make a smart switching decision. You would much rather scare off your opponents lead, and get a free turn than just killing it to be honest. There has been plenty of times when I set up Lucario on lead Metagross's Earthquake and sweeped a good amount of their team.

    Kingdra (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage
    - Substitute

    Kingdra is great, plain and simple. I chose it over something like Salamence for a few reasons. I don't want to be 5-0'd by Rain Dance, and alongside Gyarados I would have a Stealth Rock weakness. It also a much better pokemon for blind switches over Salamence. Kingdra simply scares off fire types such as Heatran locked into Fire Blast, and can set up on practically anything with Screens up. It is usually the first sweeper I send out after dual screens. Most of Kingdra's checks like Skarmory, Metagross, Forretress, and Scarf Flygon can't exactly beat you outright. Kingdra makes the team water tight against Starmie, Suicune, and pokemon such as Life Orb Heatran. It also ravages many kinds of teams. Some games I easily get +2 and just run through entire teams alongside Gyarados with their double water STAB's. It lures Rest/Talk Gyarados and weakens it. It has amazing dual STAB which provides near perfect coverage as well. Kingdra has an excellent typing, and the only thing it really fears with blind switches is Latias. Substitute is chosen over something like Hydro Pump mainly because with Screens up, you Subs will be pretty damn hard to break, and it will let you get a DD or 2 more which pretty much allows you to smash through walls just right without the help of Hydro Pump. Lum Berry was chosen over something like Leftovers because of how dangerous it is to be locked into Outrage, and get confused. It can also help against random paralysis and burns, which is simply a perk. Toxic Vaporeon also gets set-up on by Sub Lum. Sub just isn't enough all the time, and Lum Berry is just standard for a reason. EV's are also standard.

    Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def / 88 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - Bug Bite
    - Superpower

    Scizor is probably one of the stars of the team to be honest, simply because so many people are unprepared for a Swords Dance Scizor. It has respectable coverage, and is bulky. It has a great defensive typing. It scares of Tyranitar, Celebi, Latias, and Gengar which can be scarfed and get quite annoying. Priority is an excellent asset for Heavy Offense teams, because just incase you make a fatal mistake, it can help you get back on your feet. Also, besides... we all do know Swords Dance + Priority is a no brainer, no? Bug Bite is ridiculous, and it can OHKO standard Bronzong, non tank Metagross, Swampert, and Vaporeon after a Swords Dance and Stealth Rock damage. With screens, it can virtually set up on anything without a fire move, and wreck havoc. Superpower is for the steels which wall this set obviously. Scizor checks Flygon, Celebi, Metagross, and can take random Outrages from Salamence and Kingdra. I don't use Quick Attack because Bullet Punch is usually good enough. I also don't use Roost because I would rather just attack, die, then sacrifice and not waste time. 152HP gives you some bulk behind the screens and hits a LO number, 252Atk is obvious, 16Def increases your ability to take physical hits by like 2%, and 88Spe is to outspeed base 70 pokemon who might invest 44Spe EV's like Skarmory if I recall correctly, most Tyranitar, and slow Steel Killer Magnezone. It can lure and take care of non Overheat Scarf Rotom. The best thing about this Scizor is on how it can set up so easily on other Scizors. I just love sending this Scizor in on the revenge, when they are locked into Bullet Punch, and getting a free Swords Dance.

    Tyranitar (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Crunch
    - Stone Edge
    - Fire Punch

    This is Tyranitar, hear him roar. This alongside Scizor are probably the stars of the team. I chose him as another check to Rain Dance teams which can easily tear through other offensive teams, and the fact that Sandstorm is so useful for breaking random sashes, and securing KOs. It has a great defensive typing. I also run two steel types, so it is good synergy. I was pretty Zapdos, Jolteon, and Rotom weak so Tyranitar was a no brainer. I chose Jolly over Adamant simply because with HO, I found it extremely helpful to screw speed ties, and the fact that Tyranitar has always been too slow with an Adamant nature for me. The cool thing about Tyranitar in HO is the fact that Scizor always tries to come in, when I have a Reflect up, and they do around 48%, and I pull a OHKO with Fire Punch. I didn't use Aqua Tail because Gliscor still loses and Hippowdon will not beat this team. Fire Punch is also usually enough for steels considering the get worn down really fast with 5 physicals so Earthquake isn't needed. Gliscor simply cannot defeat Tyranitar with Reflect up, simply because after a Dragon Dance you 2HKO standard Jolly versions of Gliscor, and they cannot kill you back. Lum Berry allows me to set up on Celebi, and Rotom without fear, and no need for Babiri with screens up. Life Orb was not chosen, simply because Lum Berry is usually more helpful for me, and it can cause a blind switch, which are bad with HO. Rotom-h, Celebi, Dusknoir, Cresselia can all cripple Tyranitar with status. Lum Berry helps you set-up and deal with them more easily. The EV's are standard, and Tyranitar I usually send out early game for the Sandstorm, and to easily set up on Scarfed Rotom, Latias, or get a free kill on Scizor with a Reflect up. DD Tyranitar can also lure and destroy Scarfed Flygon with Reflect. Tyranitar actually becomes bulkier than Swampert with Dual Screens up which is actually impressive.

    Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - Crunch
    - ExtremeSpeed

    Lucario is a real team player. This guy is capable of running right through stall if played correctly, has priority which is very helpful as previously states, has a very helpful typing, and sets up on most leads behind screens and starts running through their team. Lucario can OHKO every single member of the typical stall team, except Hippowdon after a Swords Dance, which is 2HKO'd since it cannot OHKO you with a Reflect up. Crunch was chosen simply because it rounds the set off for perfect coverage, and with a Reflect up you can 2HKO Jolly Gliscor with a +2 Extreme Speed. Crunch hits Celebi, Dusknoir, Cresselia, and Rotom-h which would beat you otherwise. Stone Edge could be useful too, but +1 Extreme Speed is usually enough for the 2HKO on Bulky Gyarados after SR. Offensive Zapdos also gets taken care of by Extreme Speed. Bullet Punch was considered for Scarfed Tyranitar, but it is usually set-up bait for the rest of my team. Extreme Speed is great for revenge kills, picking off weakened teams, and takes care of common scarfers, hold Jirachi and Gengar from stopping my sweep which is obvious. Lucario usually scares off Empoleon, Blissey, Tyranitar, and most steels. Lucario is great for busting major holes in their team early game, which lets make the rest of the late game planning alot easier, and much easier to rap the game up. EV's are standard like the rest of the team hold Scizor. I chose Adamant because I have Extreme Speed, and there is no worse feeling than missing a KO because you ran Jolly. It is very strong.

    Gyarados (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Bounce
    - Stone Edge

    Here is Gyarados, who is great at forcing switches through Intimidate, has great coverage with 3 moves, and helps me get back on me feet just in case I make a mistake because it is bulky, and has Intimidate. I chose Gyarados over Salamence because it is resistent to Bullet Punch, and has Bounce which makes dealing with Celebi alot easier. I chose Jolly just like Tyranitar simply because of screwing speed ties, which are a major pain for HO in my experience, and helps you beat scarfers which are the worst problem for HO. It also outspeeds Scarfed Heatran, Scarfed Heracross, and Jolteon which Adamant simply cannot do. Waterfall is your main attack, and has a handy flinch chance, Stone Edge is for other Gyarados, Zapdos, Salamence and water types like Suicune. Bounce gets a OHKO on Celebi, Latias, Breloom, and Starmie after Stealth Rock, and the Paralysis chance is always nice for my slower sweepers like Scizor. Ice Fang is too weak in my experience, and Earthquake is redundant coverage for the most part except on Empoleon, Magnezone, and Tentacruel, which is why I chose these moves. This guy usually sets up on Lucario, Scizor, Infernape, Gliscor, and Hippowdon. The EV's are standard as well.


    Infernape was not chosen as a sweeper simply because it is a huge turn-off that Latias is so common, and it is fool proof counter for the Swords Dance sets. Agility Metagross is another option over SD Lucario. They are both steels, both run through offense, and both are great at beating weakened stall teams. Agility Metagross can also outrun defensive Heatran for the suprise kill. Swampert is very easy to wear down with this team so Agility Metagross is a great nitpick to run through the rest of their team with great coverage, speed, and power. It also has the perk of dealing with Expert Belt Jirachi, which is useful.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  2. calze6

    calze6 Reclaiming da ladder

    Sub and lum isn't a great combo on kingdra. T-tar likes babiri berry. Sub over stone edge for bounce gyara.
  3. palingensia

    palingensia amends

    Five set-up sweepers? Even for HO that's a lot. You really need a dedicated revenge killer, like ScarfTran, Scarf Latias, CBScizor, etc. I actually think out of what you already have, ScarfTar would do you best.

    Tyranitar @Choice Scarf
    Sand Stream | Jolly | 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    ~ Crunch
    ~ Pursuit
    ~ Stone Edge
    ~ Earthquake

    It may be better to use a mixed ScarfTar, but I'm not sure of an EV spread or anything.
  4. Gamefreak

    Gamefreak Well-Known Member

    Actually, that defeats the purpose of HO. Why use a revenge killer, if they will never be able to set up because of the constant pressure? Also, using a scarfer lets them set up when you are locked into a move, forcing you to switch.

    If something goes haywire, Extreme Speed, Bullet Punch, and Gyara are usually enough to stop a sweep if any mistakes are made, which are very rare for me.

    Anyways, Lum Berry is fine, as it cures the confusion to your Outrage, and is just helpful in general just if you don't sub or something.
  5. Alcatraz

    Alcatraz 0.0

    -sigh- I really don't know who to rage about, Game or ^ this guy.

    First off why post this team here? you saw what happened to my RMT from months ago, as this is my team I built it for you...

    Ok, not much to rate on this team, old style HO has lost it potency in the current Metagame could aways place Agility Gross over SD Cario but its only a nit pick.

    Next....otaku guy do you even know how HO is played? Dual screens + 5 set up sweepers all walled by the same things, be that a single poke, type or a side of the attacking spectrum, Dual screens is optional but most old HO teams carry DS.

    Then read the first paragrapth as I CBA'd to type my version of if as it pretty much summarises HO up nicely.

    As you can see if you place a choice user on this team you open a massive 'can of worms' as a poke can come in onto a locked move and set-up. this could be the undoing of this team.

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