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Help make this gimmicky tournament team into a competitive one!

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
This team was made for a tournament using the standard clauses. I usually test out unique/gimmicky/crappy sets with them since we're not hyper competitive, but I think this team could turn into something useful.

Oh, and I will make any changes in the OP rather than in responses. Rest assured that what you see here will reflect any changes from raters.

And as a random question: Has Pursuit fallen in use? It's on tons of Tyranitars, but I don't remember the last time I faced a Metagross or Snorlax with it.

Wi-Fi team, but that doesn't mean much besides Celebi and Jirachi don't really register as threats. Platinum move recommendations can now be made:

Heatran w/ Choice Scarf
Modest
Flash Fire
252 sp atk/252 speed/4 HP
- Fire Blast,
- Dark Pulse,
- Earthpower,
- Stealth Rock

This often served as my starter. I initially ran it with Dragon Pulse, but all that would be hitting would be Kingdra, and Heatran shouldn't be staying in on Kingdra anyway. If I was able to force a switch, I set up Stealth Rock and got out. Otherwise, I switched to an appropriate counter, since really only Heatran's weaknesses are used against it.

What really hinges on it's ability as a starter is being able to deal with Metagross. Can Heatran (without a Scarf, obviously) outrun the standard lead Metagross and have enough sp atk EVs to OHKO with Fire Blast. Azelf is obviously a much lesser worry, but Metagross' earthquake is a big concern.

It also served as a pseduo-status absorber due to it's steel typing and ability.

This set, upon reflection, could've greatly benefited from Taunt, but I couldn't come up with a good spread with decent speed while still having bulk to withstand hits.

It often survived past the first turn, and then it was a great revenge killer.

Gyarados w/ Leftovers
Adamant
Intimidate
100 HP/200 DEF/210 speed
- Dragon Dance,
- Stone Edge,
- Ice Fang,
- Waterfall

The EVs are poorly done because they aren't divisible by 4. No attack EVs was a huge hinderance, because it needed at least 2 dragon dances to do any real damage. I'm torn between pouring in attack EVs, or ditching an attack for Taunt or Thunder Wave. But I would like to keep a general idea of a bulky Gyarados around.

Starmie w/ Leftovers
Bold
Natural Cure
104 HP/154 DEF/252 speed
-Surf (originally Confuse Ray)
- Ice Beam (originally Icy Wind)
- Toxic (originally Thunder Wave)
- Thunderbolt​

Support Starmie, absorbs status. In theory, Icy Wind lowers speed on a switch, but that hasn't been happening as I've wanted it to. Icy Wind is certainly going to be replaced with Ice Beam since Thunder Wave already does the same job. Toxic is something I've been thinking of, because bulky waters will just laugh off a Thunderbolt with no EVs invested in special attach. And even though Confuse Ray + Thunder Wave is appealing, it's rare that an opponent will actually stay in. So the moveset is likely to change to Surf/Toxic/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt. Thunder Wave is dropped because Dragonite probably does it better.

Dragonite w/ Leftovers
Bold
Inner Focus
80 HP/172 Defense/252 Speed
- Thunder Wave (was Agility),
- Attract,
- Fire Blast/Draco Meteor (was Icy Wind)
- Safeguard​

Dragonite's role is support. Safeguard is vital for Shedinja. Agility and Icy Wind weren't useful at all, and Thunder Wave + Attract worked out well in some test battles I did.

Light Screen is something I've considered but I don't know wear to put it.

This is planned on being played in the late game, so Taunt shouldn't be too much of a worry.

Donphan w/ Leftovers
Impish
Sturdy
252 HP/252 DEF/4 atk
- Sunny Day,
- Rapid Spin,
- Ice Shard,
- Counter.​

EVs are the basic Smogon set, but the moves are there for a reason.

Sunny Day is to support Shedinja to get rid of Blizzard and Sand Stream. Rapid Spin to support the entire team, Counter because I couldn't pick between Earthquake and Stone Edge (and was able to KO a DDdos that hit it around with Water Fall), Ice Shard can knock out focus sash holders.

However, Toxic Spikes annoyed me to no end, which is why I'm looking into Claydol sets that can play a similar role.

Star of the team (black like Shedinja's soul):

Shedinja w/ Focus Sash
Adamant
Wonder Guard
252 atk/252 speed/4 HP
- Sword Dance - changed due to Femme's advice
- Will O Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- X-Scissor​

Standard set. It worked great in test battles, but my downfall was playing it too early in the tournament. Choice band with Trick? Sword Dance?
Confuse Ray has been scratched for Swords Dance, since ideally Shedinja won't need to force many switches when it gets played.

I also got completely destroyed by a Breloom packing Leech Seed, Focus Punch and got a sub up. I need a way to get around that.

My main concern is that it's too defensively oriented. I want to modify these sets (or use different Pokes all together) that have some more offensive punch with them. I'd love to get a Baton Passed sub to Shedinja, but too many Baton Passers share weaknesses with Shedinja. Can anyone safely BP to Shedinja? Safeguard was very useful to the team, but I'm not sure if Dragonite is the best Pokemon for all this support stuff.
 
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sangeli

Ex KGB (now janitor)
As a fan of Heatran, I don't like how he has stealth rocks. If you can get Hidden power, ice, electric, or grass, I'd use that. Personally I don't like to lead with Heatran becuase I like having the oppurtunity to switch into a fire attack. Also, with Starmies ability to use rapid spin I'm sure you can find a better pokemon than Donphan.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
As a fan of Heatran, I don't like how he has stealth rocks.
I want to get it out early in the game and since Heatran isn't a suicide lead, I can set it up again if it's spun away.

If you can get Hidden power, ice, electric, or grass
I'll see what I can do. But none of those help out against the most common starters like Azelf and Metagross, both of which are (kind of) already covered in the set. But if I want to use it as a starter with Stealth Rock, Taunt, etc..., it's not likely to have room for HP.

Personally I don't like to lead with Heatran becuase I like having the oppurtunity to switch into a fire attack.
Doesn't prevent me from doing so later in the game, though this team doesn't have anyone who really attracts fire besides Shedinja, which could be a concern.

Also, with Starmies ability to use rapid spin I'm sure you can find a better pokemon than Donphan.
But Starmie can do so much more than Donphan. Donphan can spin, take hits, Counter. Starmie can set up screens, Thunder Wave/Confuse Ray/Toxic, absorb status, blah blah blah. I know it seems redundant if you go into the mindset of Starmie=rapid spinner, but they're both serving a very different role, and I can't spare a move slot on Starmie for Spinning.

You're right that Starmie COULD spin. But I need a more substantitve reason to consider changing it's role other than "It can do it."
 
As a mild note:

Shedinja will want Swords Dance. Without it, you'll find your offensive potential completely ruined and you'll lose out a lot of times when they may not be able to hit you but you can't do any appreciable damage in return. Arguably, WoW ameliorates this somewhat but things that are either immune to its effects or pack Rest will be a thorn in your side (A good example is a ResTalk Suicune who can't hit you but without SD you won't be winning the war).

Secondly, Trick on Shedinja is a vastly overrated move. I'm not exactly sure why Smogon suggest a set for it; it's incredibly unlikely that Shedinja will receive an item it can actually make use of (Focus Sash and Lum Berry really, both of which are uncommon in relation to others). Essentially, if you grab Leftovers, you're stuck without and item and if you pack a Life Orb, you can't attack. If you want a gimmick set, by all means give Sheddy a Life Orb and Trick that - you'll get a few laughs, at least ;]

Thirdly, I would seriously consider splitting your weather setter and spinner. I've been using Shedinja for my entire battling career so I can tell you that it's very unwise to "put all your eggs in one basket" as it were. Starmie can pack Rain Dance or Dragonite can take Sunny Day (sorry I'm totally ignoring the effects on their overall sets) but it's something I would highly recommend.

Also, given you're using Shedinja, a SubPasser never goes amiss. Particularly something speedy like Jolteon to get a Sub, regardless of its strength, straight to Shedinja. This protects him from Status, Seeds AND, importantly, Toxic Spikes. It's not the most necessary support element but it helps easy prediction when you're in to a degree.

It's not much but if I go more in depth there'll be a host of people jumping up screaming "THAT'S WRONG D:<" so I'll stick to supporting sheddy...thngs I know ;]
 

sangeli

Ex KGB (now janitor)
My point is that while starmie's ability is limited by rapid spin, the replacement for Donphan could be well worth it. For example, even staying within Donphan's ability and type, Rhyperior would be a great addition (not saying I think that you shouldn't change types). Personally, I would replace Donphan with Cresselia to better counter dragons. Although, if you really think that Starmie's ice beam is so important, don't do it.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
Shedinja will want Swords Dance. Without it, you'll find your offensive potential completely ruined and you'll lose out a lot of times when they may not be able to hit you but you can't do any appreciable damage in return. Arguably, WoW ameliorates this somewhat but things that are either immune to its effects or pack Rest will be a thorn in your side (A good example is a ResTalk Suicune who can't hit you but without SD you won't be winning the war).
This is true, and something I forgot in the first tournament battle with it. Shucke w/ Toxic. I only won because I had Heatran to absorb toxic. It would be devastating to be pressure stalled out of PP by something that couldn't actually hurt me. The change will be made.

Secondly, Trick on Shedinja is a vastly overrated move. I'm not exactly sure why Smogon suggest a set for it; it's incredibly unlikely that Shedinja will receive an item it can actually make use of (Focus Sash and Lum Berry really, both of which are uncommon in relation to others). Essentially, if you grab Leftovers, you're stuck without and item and if you pack a Life Orb, you can't attack. If you want a gimmick set, by all means give Sheddy a Life Orb and Trick that - you'll get a few laughs, at least ;]
That was just me thinking out loud. Looking at Shoddy stats, Trick really doesn't seem to be dominating the metagame even though a number of Pokes got it.

Thirdly, I would seriously consider splitting your weather setter and spinner. I've been using Shedinja for my entire battling career so I can tell you that it's very unwise to "put all your eggs in one basket" as it were. Starmie can pack Rain Dance or Dragonite can take Sunny Day (sorry I'm totally ignoring the effects on their overall sets) but it's something I would highly recommend.
I'd be up for considering a Rain Dance/Thunder set on Starmie, which could possibly free up Thunder Wave. But I could also see that leading to Kingdra abuse.

The affects on their overall stats really don't matter. It's there purely to clear up Hail/Sand storm for Shedinja. If it just so happens to benefit another Poke, then all the better. But if it does nothing, fine, as long as it doesn't hurt Shedinja.

What set do you use? If you were using my team, how would you change my team (or your Shedinja) to make it work?

Also, given you're using Shedinja, a SubPasser never goes amiss. Particularly something speedy like Jolteon to get a Sub, regardless of its strength, straight to Shedinja. This protects him from Status, Seeds AND, importantly, Toxic Spikes. It's not the most necessary support element but it helps easy prediction when you're in to a degree.
My only concern is Jolteon is so frail it relies on an opponent switching out. What can Jolteon force come in on, and how many HP EVs does it need to carry and still be able to set up a sub? I'm probably limited to coming in on steel and electric, and hope they're stuck on that move due to Choice, right?

Vaporeon and Umbreon also don't share any of Shedinja's weaknesses, and both are bulkier than Jolteon. Any ideas there?

(Now I'm sure Rhys will pop in upon mention of Umbreon).

My point is that while starmie's ability is limited by rapid spin, the replacement for Donphan could be well worth it. For example, even staying within Donphan's ability and type, Rhyperior would be a great addition (not saying I think that you shouldn't change types). Personally, I would replace Donphan with Cresselia to better counter dragons. Although, if you really think that Starmie's ice beam is so important, don't do it.
Cress is certainly something to consider since I don't have a direct counter to Salamence and, to a lesser extent, Flygon. Even though it shares some weaknesses with Starmie, it'd make a great partner to Heatran. Any particular sets?

You'll need to make a convincing argument for Rhyperior. It's multitude of weaknesses puts me off. I can't possibly see him being used anything outside of a late-game sweep where I know all the HP Grass Zapdos and STAB Surf users are gone.

As for Starmie, what set should I go with, if you were handling this team.
 
Bascially anything that can pass a Sub can viably pass it to Shedinja; Vappy and Umbreon do have the advantage of not sharing any weaknesses, both of whom can beef up the Substitute (Acid Armour, Curse) to make it last a little longer if you're so inclined to try that.

The main issue in regards to using Vappy or Umby is that a lot of Shedinja-based teams are so focused on supporting Shedinja (lets face it, it needs a lot of help XD) that they lose a lot of offensive and/or defensive power. In these cases, once Sheddy dies, the teams tend to crumble apart. The major case with Jolteon is that it makes a fairly decent offensive Pokemon too.

Togekiss may find itself in the happy medium. It is quite bulky, can pass Substitutes, shares no weaknesses with Shedinja and can attack in its own right. So for those reasons alone, it may be worthwhile to check her out. She can, of course, learn Sunny Day if you so wish to have that on her. If not, Vaporeon can take Rain Dance to further compound the team.

~

I've personally found Tentacruel to be incredibly useful on my team. It allows me to run Rapid Spin and Rain Dance (which isn't a huge issue since I have Forry with Spin also) but with Liquid Ooze, anything trying to hit Shedinja with Leech Seed can be predicted around. It also provides quite a nice counter to MixApe. If you're looking for something that can easily support Shedinja and tank well, Tenta isn't a bad choice.

Though I'm confused as to what purpose Gyarados serves to the team. I'm sure it's there for a reason but its description doesn't mention why it's here or why it's EV'd to be bulky. If it's countering certain threats, it might be worthwhile to shuffle things around to have Pokemon that can directly take out Tyranitar (Gyarados with or without Atk EVs fall short of KOs on the more defensive ones), Hippowdon (this will be no issue if you have Taunt on Gyarados to prevent Roaring) and Abomasnow.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
Bascially anything that can pass a Sub can viably pass it to Shedinja; Vappy and Umbreon do have the advantage of not sharing any weaknesses, both of whom can beef up the Substitute (Acid Armour, Curse) to make it last a little longer if you're so inclined to try that.

The main issue in regards to using Vappy or Umby is that a lot of Shedinja-based teams are so focused on supporting Shedinja (lets face it, it needs a lot of help XD) that they lose a lot of offensive and/or defensive power. In these cases, once Sheddy dies, the teams tend to crumble apart. The major case with Jolteon is that it makes a fairly decent offensive Pokemon too.

Togekiss may find itself in the happy medium. It is quite bulky, can pass Substitutes, shares no weaknesses with Shedinja and can attack in its own right. So for those reasons alone, it may be worthwhile to check her out. She can, of course, learn Sunny Day if you so wish to have that on her. If not, Vaporeon can take Rain Dance to further compound the team.
The problem with Togekiss is the Rock weakness. The rock weakness was my biggest problem in making a balanced team. I know it can take a beating from special attacks, but the physical attacks put her usefulness into question.

Jolteon does seem like the best bet, since my team lacks offense. But the questions now are what set can I run and who do I replace.

I've personally found Tentacruel to be incredibly useful on my team. It allows me to run Rapid Spin and Rain Dance (which isn't a huge issue since I have Forry with Spin also) but with Liquid Ooze, anything trying to hit Shedinja with Leech Seed can be predicted around. It also provides quite a nice counter to MixApe. If you're looking for something that can easily support Shedinja and tank well, Tenta isn't a bad choice.
But on a team with Jolteon and Heatran, that raises my ground weakness to 3, which unnerves me a bit. But make a good case with a set, and what should be taken out, and I'm open to hearing it. None of the Pokes in the OP are set in stone, but I do need some logic behind any changes I might make.

Though I'm confused as to what purpose Gyarados serves to the team.
Its purpos was to be bulky and take enough hits to get at least 2 DDs in, but that never worked. I admit in the OP the EVs suck, and I need a much better spread so it won't be so offensively weak. Basically, I want to run a Bulkydos set, but don't know what to do with it. The EVs need to be overhauled, and I also question how viable a bulky Gyarados would be without Taunt or Thunder Wave (but then I lose a lot of coverage working with only two attacks)
 
Oh yeah..I forgot about Rock o_O Blonde moment XD

Well, assuming you don't need Gyarados for anything in particular, you could always change it for something else. A Machamp may not be a bad idea given its resists to both of TTar's STAB attacks (both of which Shedinja is weak to). The only real reason to keep Gyara over something like that is because of its typing; but if you're not relying on it to counter things like Scizor or Heatran, it can easily be substituted.

Also, why is Starmie running max Speed? Defensive ones can cut their speed to 216 EVs (Outrun Timid Gengar) or 200 EVs (Outrun Naive Infernape). It can give you more HP, Defence or some SpAtk. 40 EVs won't be enough to guarantee you a OHKO on standard offensive Gyarados without SR. On the other hand, Thunder will always OHKO (105% minimum) a 6 HP / 0 SpDef Gyara. For that reason alone, you might want Starmie to run a Rain Dancing set. It means you no longer need Counter on Donphan (see below) to take on Gyara.

I would possibly consider replacing Donphan with Claydol as you mentioned in the OP to give more room to move with Ground attacks. This would only be the case if you didn't need Counter to take on Gyarados. This would create a massive (3) weakness to Dark, Rock and Ghost so I would again highly advise changing Gyarados to Machamp. While it won't fix the issue (being resistant to Dark, not Ghost), it will help to a degree.

Without trying to oversimplify things, a setup similar to:

Heatran - SpAtk | SR
Starmie - Spin? | Rain
Shedinja
Dragonite - Support
Claydol - Spin | SR?
Machamp - Atk

(It helps me learn with really big categories XD)

From there you can either remove SR from Tran and give it to Claydol but you'll have to forego Rest or an attack (Ice Beam or EQ) to do that. So you're perfectly fine keeping it on Tran there.
The next question is whether you want Claydol or both Starmie and Claydol to spin. It never hurts to have two Spinners but you'll need Starmie to have Thunder (Gyara) and possibly Surf just for STAB and Rain boost.
 

UltimoVenusaur

DracoFist FTW
Regardless of how well T-Wave and Attract worked in a test battle, the fact is that Attract only works on less than half the competitive roster. I know what your intent is, so why not use Swagger in place of Attract? If not, Dragonite can set up Light Screen, which would help your team immensely. You really don't have much of a special wall on there. Rather than suggesting the boring option of adding Blissey or even Tentacruel or Snorlax, why not take out Attract and replace with Light Screen.

EDIT: I can't read. This is a Wi-Fi team, and I guess Light Screen would be a pain to add since it's an exclusive breed move. Still, it's an option to consider.
 

Rhys29

Encore
Very gimmicky. I feel bad that all I can really do is nitpick, but Shedinja really really wants that Sub/Pass. I also feel that Dragonite turns out to be more of a brick than actual support, but that's me.
 
I really don't like Scarf Heatran as your lead, because as you said on your OP, Metagross leads will quickly OHKO you with Earthquake. However, you have something going for your Heatran lead - the element of surprise, most people will assume you're a Shuca Berry Heatran. That's why I'm not sure wether to use Heatran as your lead or not, and I will leave that to your own judegement. About your Ev's: With 252 Speed you outspeed nothing, wasting Ev's. Use 238 Speed Ev's to outspeed all base 125 like Timid Alakazam and Jolly Dugtrio. You can now move those extra 14 Ev's to Hp, making your spread 18 Hp/ 252 Sp.A/ 238 Spe.

As you said, your current Gyarados' spread really suck. Since this team is for Wi-Fi, I'm assuming that you have the berrys that reduce your Ev's so you can edit them, if you don't scrap Gyarados all thogether. Use the standard Bulky Gyarados since you want some immediate offensive potential. Taunt is simply too useful imo for it not to be used with Bulky Gyarados, also, Ice Fang and Stone Edge provide similar coverage, but with a difference, the former hits Celebi and Dragons harder while the latter hits Salamence for SE damage and Zapdos and other flyers harder. That means you won't need both and can replace one of them with either Taunt or Thunder Wave, I like Taunt better though.

As Femme said, there's no need for max Speed. Use either 216 Speed or 200 Speed to outspeed positive base 110 or positive Infernape respectively. As far as moves go, well... I'm not the most experinced person using Shedinja (like Femme clearly is =D), but I know Sheddy really appreciates the Rain/Sun support so I'd say use Rain Dance/ Thunder/ Surf/ Rapid Spin.

I think Dragonite and Donphan should be replaced, because Starmie is already spinnig and setting up Rain Dance, however, once again Femme is the most experienced with Shedinja and she suggested that two spinners wouldn't hurt so I really don't know what to do. If you go with my suggestions change Dragonite for the Vaporeon/Umbreon to Baton Pass Substitutes. While Donphan can be replaced for the Machamp so you have a Rock resist/Tyranitar counter.


randomspot555 said:
(Now I'm sure Rhys will pop in upon mention of Umbreon).
Also, that was very funny.
 
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sangeli

Ex KGB (now janitor)
Cress is certainly something to consider since I don't have a direct counter to Salamence and, to a lesser extent, Flygon. Even though it shares some weaknesses with Starmie, it'd make a great partner to Heatran. Any particular sets?

You'll need to make a convincing argument for Rhyperior. It's multitude of weaknesses puts me off. I can't possibly see him being used anything outside of a late-game sweep where I know all the HP Grass Zapdos and STAB Surf users are gone.

As for Starmie, what set should I go with, if you were handling this team.
Ok, first off I actually wan't suggesting Ryhperior, just that it is superior (no pun intended) to Donphan in every way except rapid spin ability. I am suggesting Cresselia. There are two sets to consider, a calm mind-moonlight set or the rest-talk set. If you are confident that Starmie is a sufficient status absorber and you're not worried about hail and sandstorm then use calm mind-moonlight. Otherwise use rest-talk. Either set uses Ice Beam and Psychic standard.

As with Starmie, I don't have any experience in using him. But, simply judging from his current set and that you'll now have Cresselia with Ice Beam, replacing Starmie's Ice Beam with Rapid Spin sounds safe.
 

Rhys29

Encore
I actually didn't notice that quote at all. Go me. Umbreon is okay at Sub/Passing, I believe it is just supposed to be used for trap passing.

Woah, you need a Salamence countering Cresselia set? WHO THE F*CK WOULD HAVE MADE ONE OF THOSE HMMMMMMMMM?!?!?!?
 
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