He's Born! The Alolan League Winner! (1082)

[LilligantLewis]

What an episode. Had been waiting for 22 years, woke up Saturday morning giddy as a child, same feeling I had when I was waking up Saturday morning a long time ago as a kid to watch Ash vs. Gary on Kids' WB! Set up my laptop to put on Sarah Natochenny's twitch stream and my TV on Disney XD. What a way to kick off the weekend. I loved that so much of the cast came to Sarah's apartment Saturday morning for the episode too, waking up bright and early to get there, and even earlier for Lisa Ortiz Skyping in from the west coast.

As for ash vs gladion, thank you SM you undid one mistake XY did and that was not beating ash's rival even once.

Sorry, I disagree that Ash's main XY rival was Alain. It was Sawyer. I know a lot of people don't think it's Sawyer bc Ash beat Sawyer most of the time, but it was just a reversed rival storyline (befitting Ash tbh, since he was so advanced in his journey by this point) where the rival is the underdog rather than Ash being the underdog. They were still main rivals nevertheless. Alain is a league rival like Ritchie, Harrison, Tyson, Tobias, and Cameron. These are all characters Ash meets either at the league, or shortly before the league, within the last third or so of the saga.

When I was a kid I always thought Pikachu would be used during the final battle when Satoshi finally won the league.

Now I almost wish Team Rocket's Mimikyu would have been given to a serious rival instead since it's the closest thing Pikachu has to a rival.

Well at least the trial at the abandoned mall was the best Ash vs. TR battle in history! Without giving it to Jessie, that battle wouldn't have happened!

Still him sniffing the trophy for authenticity at the end was cute.

sniffing the sweet smell of victory!

Disney XD needs to broadcast this in primetime

The usual morning time slot will not do this episode Justice

I think it worked out perfectly tbh. People are usually at home on Saturday mornings. People have plans on Saturday nights hence why even the major broadcast networks air new episodes of shows usually on the other 6 days of the week. I'm glad it wasn't Sat night.

In kanto he lose to his clone which should be Shigeru Okido in first place

No, I'm fine with Ash surpassing Gary at the Indigo League. It gave the writers an opportunity for Ash to one-up Gary before outright beating him, similar to Ash beating Paul at Pokéringer.

Pokémon universe equivalent of Youtube

Pokévision? Then again, maybe Pokévision is more like Instagram than YouTube.. after all, Serena and Aria were basically competing ig models in XY21 and XY39.

Gladion's fatal error was probably keeping in Silvally after defeating Melmetal. If he recalled it and let it rest and regain strength it could have finished off an exhausted Lycanroc

literally only ONE battle had switching going on, and both cases were due to a move's effect or ability. Like is switching banned in Alola or something?

I'm starting to think it is.

Ash is the Champion of the Orange Islands yet never has to go battle anyone there, so...probably not?

He's immortalized in the Hall of Fame and has his Pity Trophy, so he can leave right after the Masked Royal fight

Really Pity Trophy? First pity badges and now this fandom is taking it to the level of pity trophy? will nothing satisfy this fandom?

Not sure how I feel about them having the audience going nearly a full series without knowing even half the team of one of the main characters,

They did this on purpose so that each time he sends out a Pokémon during the full 6on6, it will be (or most of them will be) a surprise. Same thing happened in Paul battle (using all new Pokémon) and Alain battle (we didn't know his team). I like that format as it's very exciting each time the trainer sends out a Poké Ball to have no idea what's going to come out of it.

We’re all men.

There are definitely a significant number of women on this forum.

• The first and second rounds were only one-on-one. What the heck? Who cares about a one-on-one match? In past leagues the final 16 would be three-on-three, and the top eight would be full six-on-six. One-on-ones were only used in the preliminary rounds.

• Then the semi-finals were two-on-two, not even three-on-three, let alone six-on-six.

• Even the final round, the single most important round of the entire tournament, was for some inexplicable reason a three-on-three. We don't get a single full six-on-six battle, arguably the best part about a league, for the entire thing. Why? Just why?

Everything you're mentioning here, one-on-ones showing up in later rounds than you expect, 2on2s and 3on3s also showing up in later rounds than you expect, and the 6on6 not showing up till post-league, NONE of these are just facets of this league. They are facets of the overall creep later-and-later each league, of important rounds. This is not new, and this is due to the writers' wanting to show Ash advancing each time, or most of the time (exception of Unova) but still only showing 1 or 2 6on6s because that's all they have the budget for. Think about it. If the Hoenn League rules had been used for the league that Ash eventually won, they would have had to show FIVE 6on6s for Ash since Hoenn League 6on6s started from the Round of 32! While I would love that as much as the next guy, it's just not feasible.

Indigo League: 6on6s start from quarterfinals onwards
Johto League: 6on6s start from Round of 16 onwards
Hoenn League: 6on6s start from Round of 32 onwards
Sinnoh League: 6on6s start from the quarterfinals onwards
Unova League: 6on6s start from the quarterfinals onwards
Kalos League: 6on6s start from the semifinals onwards
Alola League: 6on6s start from the post-league battle onwards

So don't **** on the Alola League alone. Complain about the overall creep later-and-later each league of 6on6s, which started in the Sinnoh League and has been going on for multiple generations now, and is not surprising at all.

Now let's talk about something else that's much more important than the nonsense you're spouting. This is a TV show not real life. In real life, if one season, a sport changed its whole rules, I would agree with you. However, this isn't real life, and this isn't a real sport, what matters is the narrative. Take a look at the numbers below.

Indigo League: 0 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s (2 if you count OI as the "true finale" of the Gen I anime)
Johto League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s
Hoenn League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s
Sinnoh League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s
Unova League: 2 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s (0 if you count it as a 6on5 not 6on6)
Kalos League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s (5 if you count Kalos League Passion with a Certain Flare!)
Alola League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s

Please now tell me what exactly the Alola League did so much worse than the other leagues?

This league was honestly worse than Unova's, and that's saying a lot

How is an 18-episode arc, the longest in the show's history, which also includes the longest battle in the show's history, comparable to 6 episodes, one of which was a useless Axew filler?

The Unova and Indigo Leagues were at least good up until the battles where Ash lost.

I'll give you the Indigo League especially since it was the first league, but how is having a 1on1 in the Round of 128 against your main rival to conclude the rivalry, skipping or barely showing ends of battles in the middle of an Axew filler, and eliminating a more fleshed out rival at the hands of a newer rival constructed just to be the dreamkiller, "good"?

That battle was bad and didn't show either of their battling skills at all, it was ruined by lack of episode time.

I actually thought they had Gladion swiftly eliminate Lillie so easily to hype up his power to get the audience scared for the Kiawe and Ash battles (and make him a legitimate dreamkiller in the audience's mind to make them think Ash could lose to him), not because they lacked episode time. And to be honest, considering the gap in battling prowess between Gladion and Lillie, any closer result wouldn't have made sense.

I'm not referring to the league arc though, I'm referring to the league itself.

This isn't a real life sporting event where the league is a real thing. It's one part of a living breathing document that is this show. Analyzing a league outside the context of its arc isn't an exercise that makes sense.

The league is over though. Ash won it. The story surrounding it continues, but that is not what I am focusing on. It doesn't matter if the follow-up battle takes place in the same stadium, it has no impact on deciding the winner of the league.

You're someone who, throughout this generation and even past generations on this forum, complain when things in the anime don't line up with the games. When you first realized during the Akala Island arc that Ash wouldn't be doing all the trials before the Olivia Grand Trial, you complained and complained and complained. When they are actually having Ash battle Professor Kukui the "champion" as his final test after winning the league, and it's about to be the longest and by some opinions best battle in the history fo the show, how on earth can you still be complaining? Is your whole goal in life to find something to complain about? My god

I never said the ones who made it to the semi-finals didn't deserve it. It's the first two rounds that were the issue.

Who cares about anything before the semifinals? You're someone who liked the Kalos League right? For example, if Ash had beaten Alain (everything up to the final moments happens the same way, except Charizard falls before Ash-Greninja), you would have been happy I presume? So, if you like the Kalos League, which wasn't a league at all it was just a semifinal and a final, then you must be someone who thinks everything before the semifinals is irrelevant. If everything before the semifinals is irrelevant, who cares about the first two rounds?

And btw, if you see my last paragraph as some twisted logic that is making false equivalences, that's fine, but I'm not out here just trying to **** with you. I genuinely believe that liking the Kalos League, and then complaining about pre-semifinals stuff in this league, is pure hypocrisy.

 

[Bguy7]

Everything you're mentioning here, one-on-ones showing up in later rounds than you expect, 2on2s and 3on3s also showing up in later rounds than you expect, and the 6on6 not showing up till post-league, NONE of these are just facets of this league. They are facets of the overall creep later-and-later each league, of important rounds. This is not new, and this is due to the writers' wanting to show Ash advancing each time, or most of the time (exception of Unova) but still only showing 1 or 2 6on6s because that's all they have the budget for. Think about it. If the Hoenn League rules had been used for the league that Ash eventually won, they would have had to show FIVE 6on6s for Ash since Hoenn League 6on6s started from the Round of 32! While I would love that as much as the next guy, it's just not feasible.

Indigo League: 6on6s start from quarterfinals onwards
Johto League: 6on6s start from Round of 16 onwards
Hoenn League: 6on6s start from Round of 32 onwards
Sinnoh League: 6on6s start from the quarterfinals onwards
Unova League: 6on6s start from the quarterfinals onwards
Kalos League: 6on6s start from the semifinals onwards
Alola League: 6on6s start from the post-league battle onwards

So don't **** on the Alola League alone. Complain about the overall creep later-and-later each league of 6on6s, which started in the Sinnoh League and has been going on for multiple generations now, and is not surprising at all.

All I can say is that at least the other leagues had six-on-sixes. It was always disappointing that they decreased the amount, but at least they didn't do away with them entirely.

Now let's talk about something else that's much more important than the nonsense you're spouting. This is a TV show not real life. In real life, if one season, a sport changed its whole rules, I would agree with you. However, this isn't real life, and this isn't a real sport, what matters is the narrative. Take a look at the numbers below.

Indigo League: 0 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s (2 if you count OI as the "true finale" of the Gen I anime)
Johto League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s
Hoenn League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s
Sinnoh League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s
Unova League: 2 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s (0 if you count it as a 6on5 not 6on6)
Kalos League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s (5 if you count Kalos League Passion with a Certain Flare!)
Alola League: 4 episodes spent on Ash 6on6s

Please now tell me what exactly the Alola League did so much worse than the other leagues?

I made it very clear earlier that I am referring specifically to the league tournament that lead to Ash winning his first league. and that tournament featured a grand total of zero episodes focusing on six-on-sixes. That's the difference.

How is an 18-episode arc, the longest in the show's history, which also includes the longest battle in the show's history, comparable to 6 episodes, one of which was a useless Axew filler?

I'll give you the Indigo League especially since it was the first league, but how is having a 1on1 in the Round of 128 against your main rival to conclude the rivalry, skipping or barely showing ends of battles in the middle of an Axew filler, and eliminating a more fleshed out rival at the hands of a newer rival constructed just to be the dreamkiller, "good"?

Yeah, I've given up arguing for the Unova League is better thing. That's probably just my mistake for not remembering it properly. I haven't watched it since it first aired, so it's the league that's been the longest since I've watched, and the only league aside from Kalos and Alola that I've never seen a second time.

However, I will still say that Unova League was better in one key point. It wasn't set up to make it feel like Ash had no choice but to win. Had that been his victory, it still would have been a relatively hollow one, but not as hollow as Alola.

This isn't a real life sporting event where the league is a real thing. It's one part of a living breathing document that is this show. Analyzing a league outside the context of its arc isn't an exercise that makes sense.

I disagree. My entire stance on this league is based around my opinion of it being disappointing that this is the league Ash won. And if we're analyzing what it means for Ash to win the tournament, then the tournament itself is what needs to be analyzed.

If I were casting judgment on how the league was as a story, then I would agree with you, but that's not what my focus is.

You're someone who, throughout this generation and even past generations on this forum, complain when things in the anime don't line up with the games. When you first realized during the Akala Island arc that Ash wouldn't be doing all the trials before the Olivia Grand Trial, you complained and complained and complained. When they are actually having Ash battle Professor Kukui the "champion" as his final test after winning the league, and it's about to be the longest and by some opinions best battle in the history fo the show, how on earth can you still be complaining? Is your whole goal in life to find something to complain about? My god

I think you're inferring something from my post that just isn't true. I'm very happy to see an interpretation of the pseudo-Champion battle in the games. And I'm not complaining about that battle at all, I'm doing quiet the opposite actually, as I'm claiming that that battle is separate from my complaints. I'm just simply stating that no matter how good the battle is, the league itself is over, as that battle is an extra add-on to main body of the league, and is not a physical part of the tournament. If it was, then Ash wouldn't be considered to have won his first league yet.

Who cares about anything before the semifinals? You're someone who liked the Kalos League right? For example, if Ash had beaten Alain (everything up to the final moments happens the same way, except Charizard falls before Ash-Greninja), you would have been happy I presume? So, if you like the Kalos League, which wasn't a league at all it was just a semifinal and a final, then you must be someone who thinks everything before the semifinals is irrelevant. If everything before the semifinals is irrelevant, who cares about the first two rounds?

I wouldn't say I like the Kalos League, but I don't dislike it either, and one of my major complaints was the lack of focus on the earlier rounds. However, the difference between the leagues is that Alola went out of its way to make the early rounds a joke that Ash should have absolutely no issues advancing through. Kalos may not have focused on its early rounds, and that was annoying, but we had no reason to believe that the early rounds were such a joke, given that people actually had to earn their way into the Kalos League.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Really Pity Trophy? First pity badges and now this fandom is taking it to the level of pity trophy? will nothing satisfy this fandom?

When Ash wins a legitimate league against more than one legitimate opponent, then we'll be satisfied

A farce is not an acceptable substitute

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I want a 6-on-6 final battle for the trophy; the true definition of combined team effort and camaraderie.

Not a 3-on-3 when both sides don't even have a full team and some members sit out.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

Really Pity Trophy? First pity badges and now this fandom is taking it to the level of pity trophy? will nothing satisfy this fandom?

Welcome to fandom life...

 

[RafaSceptile]

Of course, because Ash vs. Alain had so much effort and camaraderie...remember that half of the Pokémon of both trainers didn't have a simple victory

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Of course, because Ash vs. Alain had so much effort and camaraderie...remember that half of the Pokémon of both trainers didn't have a simple victory

Ash's team was ohana.

Alain's team was...

Uh...

When did he even get an Unfezant.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Ash's team was ohana.

Alain's team was...

Uh...

When did he even get an Unfezant.

Ash's only Pokémon in Kalos that really looked like ohana were Hawlucha and Noivern as father and son
And for some reason, Alain's team represented all the regions: Kanto (Charizard), Johto (Tyranitar), Hoenn (Metagross), Sinnoh (Weavile), Unova (Bisharp and Unfezant) and Kalos (Mega Charizard X)

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Ash's team was ohana.

Alain's team was...

Uh...

When did he even get an Unfezant.

Alain was a sledgehammer

Ash was a hammer

Sawyer was a scalpel

Welcome to fandom life...

You do know encouraging bad writing is not a good thing, right?

 

[Red and Blue]

When Ash wins a legitimate league against more than one legitimate opponent, then we'll be satisfied

A farce is not an acceptable substitute

Alolan League is legitimate. If it wasn't it would have been treated as such from the official sources.

 

[RafaSceptile]

When Ash wins a legitimate league against more than one legitimate opponent, then we'll be satisfied

A farce is not an acceptable substitute

"we will be?"
I'm more than satisfied with the Alola League because it has been the one that has shown the most things abput the tournament, even if you compare it with any of the 7 previous leagues (except the use of reserves)

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

I actually thought they had Gladion swiftly eliminate Lillie so easily to hype up his power to get the audience scared for the Kiawe and Ash battles (and make him a legitimate dreamkiller in the audience's mind to make them think Ash could lose to him), not because they lacked episode time. And to be honest, considering the gap in battling prowess between Gladion and Lillie, any closer result wouldn't have made sense.

I don't think the Lillie battle added to that. Gladion's accomplishments prior to the league, mostly his battles with Ash and also how he battled Totem Kommo-o, served much more to that end. If the intent had been to reaffirm Gladion as a legitimate threat, the battle had to have been better. Because Gladion didn't do anything in here. Lillie put up a defence with Aurora Veil and Snow Cloak, which is a solid defensive strategy, but Gladion did not overcome that defence. The hail just stopped very quickly because they didn't have more time in the episode, and that dismantled Lillie's defence. It wasn't something Gladion did, it was something the circumstances did. When Lillie and Snowy used their Z-Move, Gladion didn't do anything to overcome that attack, to deal with it. He just let Umbreon tank it. He didn't show any countermeasures.

And on Lillie's side, she went for a Z-Move too quickly, her hail ended too quickly (it lasted much longer when she battled Tyranitar), and she didn't manage to launch any attacks from underneath the Snow Cloak, even though stealth attacks would have been her best option against an opponent of superior level (and evolutionary stage) and Lillie is clever enough to figure that out. Lillie showed better battling skills before, she didn't manage to fight her best battle here. Had her hail lasted longer and had she managed to use Snow Cloak better to perhaps blindside Umbreon with a Z-Move, and had Gladion managed to overcome such a combination through his own skill and prowess, and overcome Lillie's Snow Cloak + Aurora Veil defence with his own tactics rather than just waiting out hail, it would have been a much better battle.

The simple thing is, this battle didn't come close to showing the best skills of either of them, and that makes it a bad battle. Gladion doesn't show nearly enough to sell him as a credible threat in this battle. He still is, but not because of this battle, but because of the things he showed before the league.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

This league is legitimate! Your opinions on this doesn't counter the fact it is legitimate. And this league wasn't bad writing, it was the opposite of bad writing. They actually paid attention to the writing and character arcs here. And please don't speak for the fandom when you say you don't like it...

(As for the moderator who deleted my previous comment i was wondering whether we could talk about it. I fail to see how I aimed to insult anyone through that comment and as for double posting, I'm confused by that, it may have been a glitch)

 

[LilligantLewis]

It wasn't set up to make it feel like Ash had no choice but to win.

I actually disagree with you here and I have a whole new take on your dissatisfaction with this league that I wonder if even you've realized. I think a large part of it is just because you were spoiled beforehand as you said in your first post in this thread. There were moments even during this very battle that it looked like Dusk was going down. I bigtime fail to see how Ash had no choice but to win. I think you only think that because that was the lens through which you watched the whole league, since you already know Ash won, so it felt to you like every decision that was made was leading to an inevitable conclusion, but that's not the case at all.

If I were casting judgment on how the league was as a story, then I would agree with you, but that's not what my focus is.

But the whole league IS a story, right? The whole thing is fiction! Why do you watch! Because you care about the STORY of Ash (at least I presume)

And for some reason, Alain's team represented all the regions: Kanto (Charizard), Johto (Tyranitar), Hoenn (Metagross), Sinnoh (Weavile), Unova (Bisharp and Unfezant) and Kalos (Mega Charizard X)

I liked this lol. Even now when I play the Pokémon games I try to use Pokémon from as many different regions as possible.

 

[Lord Starfish]

I actually disagree with you here and I have a whole new take on your dissatisfaction with this league that I wonder if even you've realized. I think a large part of it is just because you were spoiled beforehand as you said in your first post in this thread. There were moments even during this very battle that it looked like Dusk was going down. I bigtime fail to see how Ash had no choice but to win. I think you only think that because that was the lens through which you watched the whole league, since you already know Ash won, so it felt to you like every decision that was made was leading to an inevitable conclusion, but that's not the case at all.

The suspense was undermined pretty big-time even for people watching the episode live when it first aired in Japan though, considering that they made the absolutely brilliant decision of showing footage of Satoshi holding the League trophy the day before the episode aired... Though at that point people hadn't 100% ruled out the possibility of it just being a very cruel misdirect.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

It was a legitimate league, though a poorly structured one whose final match wasn't a full 6-on-6.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

It was a legitimate league, though a poorly structured one whose final match wasn't a full 6-on-6.

But it didn't need to be considering the scope of the story they were going for and the 4 part satisfying kukui 6 on 6 battle.

 

[Ignition]

Does it really matter if someone think it’s legit or the worst league yet? No one’s going to change their mind about it so why continue to argue over semantics? It’s just a children’s show at the end of the day. No need to be hostile

Now that we’ve went through the weekly “Is the Alola League legit?” tangent, when is the “Is Ash a real Champion?” argument?

 

[RafaSceptile]

I mean, the Alola League isn't the worst League, Just compare with the Kalos League for example:

XY125 vs SM128 (Inauguration)
XY126 vs SM138-139 (A good 3vs3 Battle)
XY129 vs SM140 (A decent? episode between the final Battle?
XY128-129-131-132 vs SM141-142-143-144 (Episodes with Full Battles)

But the Alola League has an extra Battle Royale, round of 16, quaterfinals and semifinals
The same applies to other leagues, but at least in Sinnoh Ash use reserves

 

[Ignition]

I mean, the Alola League isn't the worst League, Just compare with the Kalos League for example:

XY125 vs SM128 (Inauguration)
XY126 vs SM138-139 (A good 3vs3 Battle)
XY129 vs SM140 (A decent? episode between the final Battle?
XY128-129-131-132 vs SM141-142-143-144 (Episodes with Full Battles)

But the Alola League has an extra Battle Royale, round of 16, quaterfinals and semifinals
The same applies to other leagues, but at least in Sinnoh Ash use reserves

You’re free to think that. Doesn’t change what I said though