He's Born! The Alolan League Winner! (1082)

[Ryu Taylor]

The suspense was undermined pretty big-time even for people watching the episode live when it first aired in Japan though, considering that they made the absolutely brilliant decision of showing footage of Satoshi holding the League trophy the day before the episode aired... Though at that point people hadn't 100% ruled out the possibility of it just being a very cruel misdirect.

Yeah, that spoiler is definitely in the top 3 biggest ****ups the JP version ever committed.

And in general, the dub's promotion campaign on social media in the week leading up to this episode was so much better executed than Japan's. In fact, other than outright spoiling the ending, what did the JP version even do to promote this episode??

This league is legitimate! Your opinions on this doesn't counter the fact it is legitimate. And this league wasn't bad writing, it was the opposite of bad writing. They actually paid attention to the writing and character arcs here. And please don't speak for the fandom when you say you don't like it...

League full of shonen tropes and the admittedly cathartic sight of a prophecized shonen Gary Stu of a Pokemon falling in defeat < League full of conclusions to lots of character arcs.

 

[Ignition]

Yeah, that spoiler is definitely in the top 3 biggest ****ups the JP version ever committed.

And in general, the dub's promotion campaign on social media in the week leading up to this episode was so much better executed than Japan's. In fact, other than outright spoiling the ending, what did the JP version even do to promote this episode??

I’m not going to lie: the picture of him holding the trophy literally the night before the episode aired was a bad decision but the JP dub did basically the same thing and more: a couple of AMVs reflecting on his past Leagues, sections of magazines hyping up the tournament and it’s participants, and even an official contest that promoted I believe a vacation for whoever could guess the winner.

 

[Ryu Taylor]

the JP dub did basically the same thing and more: a couple of AMVs reflecting on his past Leagues, sections of magazines hyping up the tournament and it’s participants, and even an official contest that promoted I believe a vacation for whoever could guess the winner.

Okay, then I stand corrected.

Who won that vacation?

 

[Ignition]

Okay, then I stand corrected.

Who won that vacation?

Didn’t check on that. There was a large amount of people who thought Ash would win (even more than Gladion) so it must have been a large pool of people to choose from

 

[Bguy7]

I actually disagree with you here and I have a whole new take on your dissatisfaction with this league that I wonder if even you've realized. I think a large part of it is just because you were spoiled beforehand as you said in your first post in this thread. There were moments even during this very battle that it looked like Dusk was going down. I bigtime fail to see how Ash had no choice but to win. I think you only think that because that was the lens through which you watched the whole league, since you already know Ash won, so it felt to you like every decision that was made was leading to an inevitable conclusion, but that's not the case at all.

I'm not going to lie, being spoiled did not help issues, as I was actively watching the league knowing he was going to win, and judging it on that basis. However, all the things I pointed out as problematic, I would have had issues with regardless of if I had known ahead or not. Battles with small amounts of Pokémon, or participants that have no right being in a league would annoy me regardless of if Ash won or not, as they make things less exciting. The fact that he won just compounded the issues.

And okay, yes, saying there's no way Ash could have lost is hyperbole, I will admit. Yes, it would not have been insane if Ash had lost to Gladion. But Ash making it to that point hardly matters when just about everything else was completely trivial. The league might as have just been a battle of Ash vs. Gladion, and it wouldn't have felt like Ash had any more or less of a chance of winning.

But the whole league IS a story, right? The whole thing is fiction! Why do you watch! Because you care about the STORY of Ash (at least I presume)

Yes, I do care about the story of Ash, and that is why it pains me that this league is his first victory. The league (or would you prefer me to just say tournament in order to exclude the rest of the league arc?) was a flawed part of Ash's greater story. Whether or not Ash gets an amazing battle against the Masked Royal doesn't change the fact that the stepping stone to his first major victory was inherently flawed. Maybe the Masked Royal battle makes the overall league arc better, and that's great, but it doesn't change the fact that Ash just won a league in one of the most disappointing ways possible, putting a flaw in his story.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I'm not going to lie, being spoiled did not help issues, as I was actively watching the league knowing he was going to win, and judging it on that basis. However, all the things I pointed out as problematic, I would have had issues with regardless of if I had known ahead or not. Battles with small amounts of Pokémon, or participants that have no right being in a league would annoy me regardless of if Ash won or not, as they make things less exciting. The fact that he won just compounded the issues.

And okay, yes, saying there's no way Ash could have lost is hyperbole, I will admit. Yes, it would not have been insane if Ash had lost to Gladion. But Ash making it to that point hardly matters when just about everything else was completely trivial. The league might as have just been a battle of Ash vs. Gladion, and it wouldn't have felt like Ash had any more or less of a chance of winning.

Battles with few Pokémon aren't a problem, that they are 6vs6 does not guarantee that they will be good, and that they are 1vs1 or 2vs2 or 3vs3 doesn't guarantee that they will be bad

Yes, I do care about the story of Ash, and that is why it pains me that this league is his first victory. The league (or would you prefer me to just say tournament in order to exclude the rest of the league arc?) was a flawed part of Ash's greater story. Whether or not Ash gets an amazing battle against the Masked Royal doesn't change the fact that the stepping stone to his first major victory was inherently flawed. Maybe the Masked Royal battle makes the overall league arc better, and that's great, but it doesn't change the fact that Ash just won a league in one of the most disappointing ways possible, putting a flaw in his story.

It's still less disappointing that Ash had won a run for only 2 Pokémon like Pikachu and Greninja. At least in previous leagues, other Pokémon had highlights such as the Johto, Sinnoh and Alola leagues, which I consider to be the 3 best so far

 

[Bguy7]

Battles with few Pokémon aren't a problem, that they are 6vs6 does not guarantee that they will be good, and that they are 1vs1 or 2vs2 or 3vs3 doesn't guarantee that they will be bad

Okay, we're talking about two different things here. In the post that you quoted, I was listing reasons why the league was designed as if to be as casual and non-testing of Ash as possible, and therefore felt like a farce of a league. Regardless of how entertaining they can be, a one-on-one battle does not test a trainer as much as a three-on-three, and likewise, a three-on-three does not test a trainer as much as a six-on-six. It's a simple concept. Six-on-six battles are meant to be the ultimate test of a trainer. They help to minimize the reliance on one or two strong Pokémon (even if it's still possible), and they make the trainer face a much more grueling task where they are forced to adapt to a much wider range of challenges over a shorter period of time. Just because a three-on-three can be entertaining, does not change the fact that Ash winning a league without a six-on-six feels much more empty, as it didn't test him in the same way.

But to address what you said, yes, you can have a good one-on-one and a bad six-on-six. The number of Pokémon does not determine the quality of the battle alone. However, it is no coincidence that some of the best battles in the series are six-on-sixes. When done right, those battles are simply better than anything else. The prolonged element of battles with more Pokémon, as well as the increased emphasis on strategy, naturally helps make the battle better. Yes, they can be done wrong, but the potential of them is so much greater that it's simply a waste to not have them.

It's still less disappointing that Ash had won a run for only 2 Pokémon like Pikachu and Greninja. At least in previous leagues, other Pokémon had highlights such as the Johto, Sinnoh and Alola leagues, which I consider to be the 3 best so far

Sorry, I'm not really sure how this is relevant to what I was saying.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Six-on-six battles are meant to be the ultimate test of a trainer. They help to minimize the reliance on one or two strong Pokémon...

In the Johto League, Charizard defeats 3 Gary's Pokémon, same with Infernape against Paul in the Sinnoh League, in the Kalos League, Pikachu defeats 1/3 of Sawyer and Alain's Pokémon in him 6vs6 battles
so yeah, a 6vs6 doesn't mean minimize the reliance
at least in the Alola League all Ash's Pokemon could shine

Sorry, I'm not really sure how this is relevant to what I was saying.

because that shows that his team wasn't strong outside those 2 Pokémon and some people overrate that team only because it's the unique Ash's team with full evolved Pokémon

EDIT: wow, this episode really became the second most commented episode of the main series, just behind "Down to the Fiery Finish!"

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

And yet, it cannot and will never match the hilariousness that is retreading that thread's first pages worth of posts.

 

[Bguy7]

In the Johto League, Charizard defeats 3 Gary's Pokémon, same with Infernape against Paul in the Sinnoh League, in the Kalos League, Pikachu defeats 1/3 of Sawyer and Alain's Pokémon in him 6vs6 battles
so yeah, a 6vs6 doesn't mean minimize the reliance

Hence the reason why I had the "even if it's still possible" in the parenthesis of my original post. I was speaking on a conceptual level of why six-on-sixes are a better test of a trainer. And really, it still does show, even in the examples you mentioned. If Ash vs. Gary was a three-on-three, like the Alola League, then Charizard could have just swept Gary, and no one wants to watch that, so the six-on-six still was better, even in that extreme scenario, as it made it so Ash couldn't rely solely on Charizard.

And regardless, I would definitely argue the greater tactical requirements is the much more important factor of a six-on-six that just can't be replicated in anything less.

at least in the Alola League all Ash's Pokemon could shine

And I never said that wasn't the case, but that's not my concern. Great for all his Pokémon, getting their moment, but that doesn't change anything about any of my complaints.

because that shows that his team wasn't strong outside those 2 Pokémon and some people overrate that team only because it's the unique Ash's team with full evolved Pokémon

Okay, but whether or not that is true has nothing to do with the Alola League being set up to be the most hollow victory of all time.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Hence the reason why I had the "even if it's still possible" in the parenthesis. I was speaking on a conceptual level of why six-on-sixes are a better test of a trainer. And really, it still does show, even in the examples you mentioned. If Ash vs. Gary was a three-on-three, like the Alola League, then Charizard could have just swept Gary, and no one wants to watch that, so the six-on-six still was better, even in that extreme scenario.

That's not necessarily true, because Gary could have used 2 other Pokémon other than the ones Charizard defeated

Okay, but whether or not that is true has nothing to do with the Alola League failing to be a true test for Ash thanks to its pathetic rules.

Ash had to defeat an opponent who had never defeated with a Legendary Pokémon and a leader of an antagonistic team with a Golisopod capable of tanking a Gigavolt Havoc
And especially after the Exhibition Match...yeah this was a true test for Ash's skills and him Alola's Team

 

[Bguy7]

That's not necessarily true, because Gary could have used 2 other Pokémon other than the ones Charizard defeated

Hence the reason I said "could" instead of "would." It was just an example how the numbers can change things.

Ash had to defeat an opponent who had never defeated with a Legendary Pokémon and a leader of an antagonistic team with a Golisopod capable of tanking a Gigavolt Havoc

A league is a whole lot more than just the semi-finals and finals. As far as testing its participants goes, the earlier rounds matter too. The league might as well have just been the last two rounds, and Ash wouldn't have been tested any less. And had those last two rounds been six-on-six battles like they should have been, they would have been a much better test for Ash as well. They were alright as test for him, but could have been so much better.

And especially after the Exhibition Match...yeah this was a true test for Ash's skills and him Alola's Team

And maybe the exhibition match is a true test for Ash (haven't seen it yet, so I can't attest for that), but that's not what I'm concerned about, as he's already been crowned the winner of the league before that match.

 

[RafaSceptile]

A league is a whole lot more than just the semi-finals and finals. As far as testing its participants goes, the earlier rounds matter too. The league might as well have just been the last two rounds, and Ash wouldn't have been tested any less. And for all we know, had those last two rounds been six-on-six battles like they should have been, they would have been a much better test for Ash as well. They were alright as test for him, but could have been so much better.

Again, a 6vs6 doesn't mean it will be a better battle, Ash vs. Guzma even being a 2vs2 is a better battle than some 6vs6 like Ash vs Cameron, and I dare to say that Ash vs Alain Stu for the fact that 4 of the 6 Alain's Pokémon were extremely weak (honorific mention to Weavile, at least he has 1 win againt...Noivern)

And maybe the exhibition match is a true test for Ash (haven't seen it yet, so I can't attest for that), but that's not what I'm concerned about, as he's already been crowned the winner of the league before that match.

Yes, but not as the strongest coach in the region, so yes, Ash became the champion of Alola before a real event worthy of a final battle, the best conclusion of a Pokémon League since the Sinnoh League

 

[Bguy7]

Again, a 6vs6 doesn't mean it will be a better battle, Ash vs. Guzma even being a 2vs2 is a better battle than some 6vs6 like Ash vs Cameron, and I dare to say that Ash vs Alain Stu for the fact that 4 of the 6 Alain's Pokémon were extremely weak (honorific mention to Weavile, at least he has 1 win againt...Noivern)

And once again, that's not the point I'm making (even if it is a point I believe in general). Go back and re-read what I said if you have to. I am saying that a six-on-six makes for a better test of a trainer. It is a better show of skill and ability to win one, and it makes the winner look all the more impressive. I am saying that had there been even one six-on-six, it would have felt like Ash was better tested, and therefore was more deserving of his victory. I am not in any way (in this train of discussion at least) making any claims dealing with how entertaining and/or well-written the battles are.

To put my argument a different way, I will always be left asking "what if?" What if Ash actually faced a competent opponent in the early rounds? Might he have been knocked out early? What if his fight with Gladion was a six-on-six? Might Gladion have been able to just barely pull ahead in the end, seeing as the two were so evenly matched to begin with? Had this been more of a traditional league, I would not be left with these and more "what if's."

 

[RafaSceptile]

And once again, that's not the point I'm making (even if it is a point I believe in general). Go back and re-read what I said if you have to. I am saying that a six-on-six makes for a better test of a trainer. It is a better show of skill and ability to win one, and it makes the winner look all the more impressive. I am saying that had there been even one six-on-six, it would have felt like Ash was better tested, and therefore was more deserving of his victory. I am not in any way (in this train of discussion at least) making any claims dealing with how entertaining and/or well-written the battles are.

To put my argument a different way, I will always be left asking "what if?" What if Ash actually faced a competent opponent in the early rounds? Might he have been knocked out early? What if his fight with Gladion was a six-on-six? Might Gladion have been able to just barely pull ahead in the end, seeing as the two were so evenly matched to begin with? Had this been more of a traditional league, I would not be left with these and more "what if's."

And once again, a 6vs6 doesn't make a better battle, just see Ash vs Cameron or Ash vs Alain
A 6vs6 battle isn't necessarily a better test for a trainer, even during a league, winning the other 5 Alain Pokémon didn't prove anything to Ash because only Bisharp was really strong, just beating Charizard ... and then Ash lost

 

[mehmeh1]

Yeah, that spoiler is definitely in the top 3 biggest ****ups the JP version ever committed.

And in general, the dub's promotion campaign on social media in the week leading up to this episode was so much better executed than Japan's. In fact, other than outright spoiling the ending, what did the JP version even do to promote this episode??


League full of shonen tropes and the admittedly cathartic sight of a prophecized shonen Gary Stu of a Pokemon falling in defeat < League full of conclusions to lots of character arcs.

The jp version had released an AMV recapping all the leagues with "Mezase Pokemon Master" around the time the league began. Also, Type:Wild (which was the ending during the Indigo League) returned as the ending for the league and goodbyes.

 

[Bguy7]

And once again, a 6vs6 doesn't make a better battle, just see Ash vs Cameron or Ash vs Alain

And once again, my post has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it's a better battle. I don't care if there have been bad six-on-six battles, as that doesn't effect the core of my argument in the slightest. I'm not sure I can be anymore unambiguous on that topic.

A 6vs6 battle isn't necessarily a better test for a trainer, even during a league, winning the other 5 Alain Pokémon didn't prove anything to Ash because only Bisharp was really strong, just beating Charizard ... and then Ash lost

Regardless of how much or how little of an extra challenge Alain's Pokémon provided Ash, there is no denying that a six-on-six battle is more of a challenge than a three-on-three. They are longer, face you against more variety, force you to think more strategically, and test how well you've trained your entire team. Had Alain been a three-on-three battle, then it would have been less of a test of Ash than it was as a six-on-six. Six-on-six battles were literally designed to be the ultimate test of a trainer. Clearly you don't like Ash vs. Alain. Okay, that's fine. But the quality of that battle has little bearing on the simple fact that six-on-six battles are inherently the toughest thing you can put a trainer through in the show.

 

[RafaSceptile]

And once again, my post has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it's a better battle. I don't care if there have been bad six-on-six battles, as that doesn't effect the core of my argument in the slightest. I'm not sure I can be anymore unambiguous on that topic.

You literally said:

I am saying that a six-on-six makes for a better test of a trainer.

and that isn't neccesary true. There are several examples of how several 3vs3 have been more challenging for Ash than some 6vs6 during the league.

Regardless of how much or how little of an extra challenge Alain's Pokémon provided Ash, there is no denying that a six-on-six battle is more of a challenge than a three-on-three. They are longer, face you against more variety, force you to think more strategically, and test how well you've trained your entire team. Had Alain been a three-on-three battle, then it would have been less of a test of Ash than it was as a six-on-six. Six-on-six battles were literally designed to be the ultimate test of a trainer. Clearly you don't like Ash vs. Alain. Okay, that's fine. But the quality of that battle has little bearing on the simple fact that six-on-six battles are inherently the toughest thing you can put a trainer through in the show.

Oh right, the common battle in the Pokémon Games agains't the trainer with 6 Magikarps is the pinnacle of the test for a trainer...
That isn't how this work, a 6vs6 isn't necesarily the best test for a trainer, just see the Battle Frontier battles in the games and in the anime, or how Ash became a champion by defeating a Legendary Pokémon and a rival that had never defeated, that was more dificult than some 6vs6 Ash's Battles during a league

 

[Bguy7]

and that isn't neccesary true. There are several examples of how several 3vs3 have been more challenging for Ash than some 6vs6 during the league.

Yes, I did say that. But what you said is a six-on-six isn't automatically a better battle. There's a difference between what's a better battle and what's a better test.

Oh right, the common battle in the Pokémon Games agains't the trainer with 6 Magikarps is the pinnacle of the test for a trainer...

Because a joke battle in the games is definitely a good example to bring in to a conversation about the show. I think it's pretty clear that I am referring to anime battles, which are completely different from game battles, and that I am making the fair assumption that Ash is battling a competent trainer with a competent team. Unless you want to argue that Gladion would bring a team of six Magikarp to the league, this example means absolutely nothing.

That isn't how this work, a 6vs6 isn't necesarily the best test for a trainer, just see the Battle Frontier battles in the games and in the anime, or how Ash became a champion by defeating a Legendary Pokémon and a rival that had never defeated, that was more dificult than some 6vs6 Ash's Battles during a league

I am not saying that a three-on-three can't be a good test, or that a six-on-six is automatically a good test. What I am saying is that a six-on-six has more potential, and that's what the heart of the issue is, missed potential. Whether or not Ash has good three-on-threes or bad six-on-sixes doesn't change the fact that there's more potential in a six-on-six.

Let's break it down in a different way. Let's say the Gladion three-on-three battle was indeed a good test, I don't entirely disagree with that statement. Had that battle been a six-on-six battle, it would not have been any worse of a test. Worst case scenario, it would have been the same level of difficulty for Ash and best case it would have been much better test. There is only room to improve when it comes to how good of a test it was. That leaves us with a major "what if" question. Since six-on-sixes are the standard in other leagues, we will always be left questioning how the battle would have gone differently if the Alola League had used standard rules.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Yes, I did say that. But what you said is a six-on-six isn't automatically a better battle. There's a difference between what's a better battle and what's a better test.

That is precisely why it makes no sense to say that these battles would have been better if they were 6vs6, nothing guarantees that.

Because a joke battle in the games is definitely a good example to bring in to a conversation about the show. I think it's pretty clear that I am referring to anime battles, which are completely different from game battles, and that I am making the fair assumption that Ash is battling a competent trainer with a competent team. Unless you want to argue that Gladion would bring a team of six Magikarp to the league, this example means absolutely nothing.

the battles in the anime, and especially in SM, also have moments of jokes like the fake KO of Rowlet vs. Hau, and yet they are great battles
the example is how a 6vs6 is not automatically a better challenge for a trainer than a 1vs1 or a 3vs3

I am not saying that a three-on-three can't be a good test, or that a six-on-six is automatically a good test. What I am saying is that a six-on-six has more potential, and that's what the heart of the issue is, missed potential. Whether or not Ash has good three-on-threes or bad six-on-sixes doesn't change the fact that there's more potential in a six-on-six.

Let's break it down in a different way. Let's say the Gladion three-on-three battle was indeed a good test, I don't entirely disagree with that statement. Had that battle been a six-on-six battle, it would not have been any worse of a test. Worst case scenario, it would have been the same level of difficulty for Ash and best case it would have been much better test. There is only room to improve when it comes to how good of a test it was. That leaves us with a major "what if" question. Since six-on-sixes are the standard in other leagues, we will always be left questioning how the battle would have gone differently if the Alola League had used standard rules.

If we talk about lost potential, other leagues like Indigo, Hoenn, Unova and Kalos had even greater lost potential.
We can even keep the last 7 episodes of the Alola league (Ash vs Gladion, Guzzlord and Ash vs Kukui) and the league surpasses all the previous ones, being at the level of the best leagues like Johto and Sinnoh
So no, the potential lost although it exists, isn't worse than in several of the previous leagues