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He's Born! The Alolan League Winner! (1082)

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
and that isn't neccesary true. There are several examples of how several 3vs3 have been more challenging for Ash than some 6vs6 during the league.

Yes, I did say that. But what you said is a six-on-six isn't automatically a better battle. There's a difference between what's a better battle and what's a better test.

Oh right, the common battle in the Pokémon Games agains't the trainer with 6 Magikarps is the pinnacle of the test for a trainer...

Because a joke battle in the games is definitely a good example to bring in to a conversation about the show. I think it's pretty clear that I am referring to anime battles, which are completely different from game battles, and that I am making the fair assumption that Ash is battling a competent trainer with a competent team. Unless you want to argue that Gladion would bring a team of six Magikarp to the league, this example means absolutely nothing.

That isn't how this work, a 6vs6 isn't necesarily the best test for a trainer, just see the Battle Frontier battles in the games and in the anime, or how Ash became a champion by defeating a Legendary Pokémon and a rival that had never defeated, that was more dificult than some 6vs6 Ash's Battles during a league

I am not saying that a three-on-three can't be a good test, or that a six-on-six is automatically a good test. What I am saying is that a six-on-six has more potential, and that's what the heart of the issue is, missed potential. Whether or not Ash has good three-on-threes or bad six-on-sixes doesn't change the fact that there's more potential in a six-on-six.

Let's break it down in a different way. Let's say the Gladion three-on-three battle was indeed a good test, I don't entirely disagree with that statement. Had that battle been a six-on-six battle, it would not have been any worse of a test. Worst case scenario, it would have been the same level of difficulty for Ash and best case it would have been much better test. There is only room to improve when it comes to how good of a test it was. That leaves us with a major "what if" question. Since six-on-sixes are the standard in other leagues, we will always be left questioning how the battle would have gone differently if the Alola League had used standard rules.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Yes, I did say that. But what you said is a six-on-six isn't automatically a better battle. There's a difference between what's a better battle and what's a better test.

That is precisely why it makes no sense to say that these battles would have been better if they were 6vs6, nothing guarantees that.

Because a joke battle in the games is definitely a good example to bring in to a conversation about the show. I think it's pretty clear that I am referring to anime battles, which are completely different from game battles, and that I am making the fair assumption that Ash is battling a competent trainer with a competent team. Unless you want to argue that Gladion would bring a team of six Magikarp to the league, this example means absolutely nothing.

the battles in the anime, and especially in SM, also have moments of jokes like the fake KO of Rowlet vs. Hau, and yet they are great battles
the example is how a 6vs6 is not automatically a better challenge for a trainer than a 1vs1 or a 3vs3

I am not saying that a three-on-three can't be a good test, or that a six-on-six is automatically a good test. What I am saying is that a six-on-six has more potential, and that's what the heart of the issue is, missed potential. Whether or not Ash has good three-on-threes or bad six-on-sixes doesn't change the fact that there's more potential in a six-on-six.

Let's break it down in a different way. Let's say the Gladion three-on-three battle was indeed a good test, I don't entirely disagree with that statement. Had that battle been a six-on-six battle, it would not have been any worse of a test. Worst case scenario, it would have been the same level of difficulty for Ash and best case it would have been much better test. There is only room to improve when it comes to how good of a test it was. That leaves us with a major "what if" question. Since six-on-sixes are the standard in other leagues, we will always be left questioning how the battle would have gone differently if the Alola League had used standard rules.

If we talk about lost potential, other leagues like Indigo, Hoenn, Unova and Kalos had even greater lost potential.
We can even keep the last 7 episodes of the Alola league (Ash vs Gladion, Guzzlord and Ash vs Kukui) and the league surpasses all the previous ones, being at the level of the best leagues like Johto and Sinnoh
So no, the potential lost although it exists, isn't worse than in several of the previous leagues
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
That is precisely why it makes no sense to say that these battles would have been better if they were 6vs6, nothing guarantees that.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is no guarantee, but there is still lost potential.

the battles in the anime, and especially in SM, also have moments of jokes like the fake KO of Rowlet vs. Hau, and yet they are great battles
the example is how a 6vs6 is not automatically a better challenge for a trainer than a 1vs1 or a 3vs3

A battle with a joke in it is a far cry from a full-on joke battle that has no elements which should be taken seriously. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A much better example of a joke battle would be Ash vs. Faba, which was a utterly ridiculous match that did nothing to show Ash or Meltan's strength and ability.

But fine, if you would rather me be more specific, I'll change my core statement to be "A six-on-six battle provides a better test of a trainer, assuming that the opponent is of a serious skill level and uses a team of competent Pokémon."

If we talk about lost potential, other leagues like Indigo, Hoenn, Unova and Kalos had even greater lost potential.
We can even keep the last 7 episodes of the Alola league (Ash vs Gladion, Guzzlord and Ash vs Kukui) and the league surpasses all the previous ones, being at the level of the best leagues like Johto and Sinnoh
So no, the potential lost although it exists, isn't worse than in several of the previous leagues

Yes, no league is perfect. I never claimed as much. Here's the point where we get into pure opinions. It is my opinion that the lost potential in this league is much worse than previous, and that it matters more because this is the league Ash won. Clearly that is not your opinion, and that's fine, but whatever you say isn't going to change the fact that the lost potential is there, and that to some this potential translates to this not being a good league.

Look, this is clearly going nowhere. The reason we're going in circles so much is because we're arguing two completely different things. I don't care if other leagues didn't meet their potential, I don't care if there have been bad six-on-sixes, I don't care if battles after the tournament help to make up for the tournament's deficiencies. None of that matters to my core argument. Clearly they are all reasons that you like this league, and that's great for you. I'm not trying to say there's anything wrong with you thinking that. Unless you have something new to say that's actually relevant to my perspective, I'm done with this circular debate.
 
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RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is no guarantee, but there is still lost potential.

And still less lost potential than some previous leagues

A battle with a joke in it is a far cry from a full-on joke battle that has no elements which should be taken seriously. You're comparing apples and oranges.

A much better example of a joke battle would be Ash vs. Faba, which was a utterly ridiculous match that did nothing to show Ash or Meltan's strength and ability.

But fine, if you would rather me be more specific, I'll change my core statement to be "A six-on-six battle provides a better test of a trainer, assuming that the opponent is of a serious skill level and uses a team of competent Pokémon."

Meltan had previously fought against Ryuki with Rowlet, he didn't have to try much more against Faba, who had previously done something before Gladio in the Aether Arc

Yes, no league is perfect. I never claimed as much.

Look, this is clearly going nowhere. The reason we're going in circles so much is because we're arguing two completely different things. I don't care if other leagues didn't meet their potential, I don't care if there have been bad six-on-sixes, I don't care if battles after the tournament help to make up for the tournament's deficiencies. None of that matters to my core argument. Clearly they are all reasons that you like this league, and that's great for you. I'm not trying to say there's anything wrong with you thinking that. Unless you have something new to say that's actually relevant to my perspective, I'm done with this circular debate.

This "circular" debate began by saying that this league is worse than the Unova League, when it's not even worse than this
Do you want to believe that this league is not good? great, but to say that this league is worse than the Unova League (or Indigo) is a total lie
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
This "circular" debate began by saying that this league is worse than the Unova League, when it's not even worse than this
Do you want to believe that this league is not good? great, but to say that this league is worse than the Unova League (or Indigo) is a total lie

At some point, way back in this debate, I gave up on arguing that point, admitting that it had been much too long since I've seen the Unova League to make any confident arguments on the matter. None of my posts since then have been about arguing that this league was worse than the Unova League. They've simply been about explaining my dissatisfaction of this league.

Also, it seems you missed an edit I made to my previous post, I suggest you read the second to last paragraph on that post again, where I talk a bit about the opinion-based nature of where our debate has lead. Actually, I just re-post it here for you:

Yes, no league is perfect. I never claimed as much. Here's the point where we get into pure opinions. It is my opinion that the lost potential in this league is much worse than previous, and that it matters more because this is the league Ash won. Clearly that is not your opinion, and that's fine, but whatever you say isn't going to change the fact that the lost potential is there, and that to some this potential translates to this not being a good league.
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
At some point, way back in this debate, I gave up on arguing that point, admitting that it had been much too long since I've seen the Unova League to make any confident arguments on the matter. None of my posts since then have been about arguing that this league was worse than the Unova League. They've simply been about explaining my dissatisfaction of this league.

Also, it seems you missed an edit I made to my previous post, I suggest you read the second to last paragraph on that post again, where I talk a bit about the opinion-based nature of where our debate has lead. Actually, I just re-post it here for you:

It is not very difficult to remember the disaster that was the Unova League *cough* Axew's filler *cough*. And again, look at the potential lost in other leagues: The Hoenn League was not treated as it should by giving priority to Battle Frontier Arc, the Unova League is a disaster, and the Kalos League suffers the same as the Hoenn League, but worse, because Alain vs. Trevor was relegated to Background while Ash faced the Furfrou trainer, they preferred to show Tierno vs Sawyer instead of Ash vs Astrid, and we skipped all the first rounds of the League just to see a unique victory for Ash to give it priority to Team Flare arc
 

Commander L. Halsti

Toxin Squad Cmdr.
Well, Ash was going to win something. Might as well have it be a mini-league, like Orange Islands. The Guzzlord appearance at the end probably means Team Rocket don't get to do some villainy.:(
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
It is not a "mini league, like Orange Islands" at all, but I'm sure this is exactly the kind of response you were going for when you typed that so congratulations I guess.

I watched the dub. As expected it's significantly worse in terms of music and performance (why does everyone in the dub have to be in a competition for "who can have the highest-pitched, screechiest, most irritating possible voice"? Though the terrible dialogue - a slave to the syllables of the character mouth movements, I know, but still awful - doesn't help. And I have to mention the direction of the voices, too, which I think is done with the specific aim of removing any kind of subtlety or range). But I will give props to Ash's VA's flabbergasted line read of "what just happened?" 10/10 delivery and literally the only part of the whole thing that captured the enormity of Ash's win.
 
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Ryu Taylor

Unwavering beliefs. Richter Taylor is my name now.
It is not a "mini league, like Orange Islands" at all, but I'm sure this is exactly the kind of response you were going for when you typed that so congratulations I guess.

I watched the dub. As expected it's significantly worse in terms of music and performance (why does everyone in the dub have to be in a competition for "who can have the high-pitched, screechiest, most irritating possible voice"? Though the terrible dialogue - a slave to the syllables of the character mouth movements, I know, but still awful - doesn't help. And I have to mention the direction of the voices, too, which I think is done with the specific aim of removing any kind of subtlety or range). But I will give props to Ash's VA's flabbergasted line read of "what just happened?" 10/10 delivery and literally the only part of the whole thing that captured the enormity of Ash's win.
Putting aside the fact that any complaint about any other version's voices being terrible is instantly invalidated by how awful Meowth, Bewear, and Guzzlord sound in Japanese (don't blame me; blame Inuyama and whatever poor soul voices the latter two), Ash's confusion was indeed perfectly delivered there.

Also, I've seen this episode's JP self. While that was a big mistake considering this is SM (the JP version's single lowest point that PM2019 rescued it from by some miracle), Ash wondering if he really won was just as fit for the moment as his dub line. Even in its lowest point, the JP version thankfully was able to at least have an iota of competence to it. I just wish it had more than that one iota.
 

TheNewGuy

Well-Known Member
Oh wow

Meowth, Bewear and Guzzlord

That's definitely directly comparable to *every single voice in the dub*. All of them, without exception, thanks to the godawful direction and line selection.
 

Ryu Taylor

Unwavering beliefs. Richter Taylor is my name now.
Oh wow

Meowth, Bewear and Guzzlord

That's definitely directly comparable to *every single voice in the dub*. All of them, without exception, thanks to the godawful direction and line selection.
Actually, they're comparable to things that cause physical pain to the ears: nails on a chalkboard, vuvuzelas (which I'm glad haven't been a thing for a decade), air horns, explosions happening yards away, a gun being fired in a closed space, dogwhistles (yes, only dogs can hear them, but it hurts them greatly)...
No actually, those three JP voices are worse than all that. It might take some time for tinnitus to set in upon hearing all that other stuff, but thise three JP voices cause it immediately.
Again, it's not your fault they invalidate any complaint about dub voices being annoying; it's those incompetent untalented VAs' faults. And Mima's, too, since he directs them.

But I do agree with you about the JP lines being awful (though that's just the icing on the asbestos cake that is SM's JP version).
 
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Jnmisty

Well-Known Member
You know each time Ash was in a Pokémon League tournament, he came out of it with things that will be waiting for him in a different place.

Indigo League: Losing in a battle before a major six on six battle. Then watching a full six on six battle

Orange League: Actually winning a six on six battle

Johto Silver Conference: New Pokemon from the Hoenn Region

Hoenn Region: Knowing a Pokémon’s battling style

Battle Frontier: Coming up with a battling style of your own

Sinnoh: The power of a pokémon especially in a legendary pokemon.

Unova: Evil teams and their dark and evil intentions

Kalos: Ash making it to the finals for the first time ever and lost to Alain and a regional crisis

Alola: Actually winning a league tournament and actually winning an exhibition battle.

Galar:??????
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
You know each time Ash was in a Pokémon League tournament, he came out of it with things that will be waiting for him in a different place.

Indigo League: Losing in a battle before a major six on six battle. Then watching a full six on six battle

Orange League: Actually winning a six on six battle

Johto Silver Conference: New Pokemon from the Hoenn Region

Hoenn Region: Knowing a Pokémon’s battling style

Battle Frontier: Coming up with a battling style of your own

Sinnoh: The power of a pokémon especially in a legendary pokemon.

Unova: Evil teams and their dark and evil intentions

Kalos: Ash making it to the finals for the first time ever and lost to Alain and a regional crisis

Alola: Actually winning a league tournament and actually winning an exhibition battle.

Galar:??????

Probably Ash will win a battle against an official E4/Champion Trainer (at least Leon) for the first time
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
If Down to the Fiery Finish has its anniversary reminder, this episode should have one too.

Congratulations Ash Ketchum, first Champion of Alola, after 22 years you finally became a champion and it was deservedly. Also happy #NationalAshKetchumDay to anyone that is glad about this moment.

800px-Ash_winning.png
 

TheCrazyMaster

Well-Known Member
Today marks the day of one of Ash's greatest achievements in his career as a Pokemon trainer, successfully winning a league conference, and I'm going to celebrate #NationalAshKetchumDay......
Oh wait, I was going to celebrate it on the day that Ash won his first league aka the Orange League like a true chad, but I missed it apparently because I got the Japanese and English dubs mixed up..... eh, this is also good enough.
Happy National Ash Ketchum Day everybody!
 
I'm sooooooooo ready to participate in this league. Already convinced this Pidgey to help me enter it with it. It's not in a ball, but, eh, I won't be stopped by security.
 
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