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~*~ HG/SS Speculation / Idea Thread 2.0 ~*~ [READ THE FIRST POST OR ELSE]

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FloofehKitteh

Dawnflower
I picked up Platinum last night, and was flicking through the little manual included and realized something.

It's highly unlikely they'd make a new HM, whether it be Whirlpool or Dive. (by new I mean HM09) Because then how would they make it you can use it? There are only 8 Gyms in one League, and waiting until you hit Kanto to be able to use it seems kinda silly.

I think the moves will become move tutor moves. Don't certain Pokemon already learn Whirlpool through leveling anyway?
 

Macks

Macks Attacks
Don't certain Pokemon already learn Whirlpool through leveling anyway?
None of the Gen II Pokemon learn it by Level Up.
And the only Gen I Pokemon who does is Shellder. It would be ludicrous if they made us go out to find a Shellder just to get to the Whirl Islands.
 

Aielyn

Well-Known Member
Actually it's really hard to localize a Pokemon game. There is so much more going on in Pokemon than meets the eye, and it all takes a long time to translate and localize.

And as you pointed out there has not been a game that didn't take around six months to localize.

Pokemon XD took a little over two months to release in all major regions. And don't try to flip to "but it's not a main handheld game", because it's still a full story with a lot going on, and plenty of content to localise. Plus, you also get all the technological localisation issues (NTSC -> PAL, etc) that don't happen with handhelds.

They can get games out quickly in all regions.

More importantly, though, they can translate to all the western languages at the same time, and save time with the localisation further by starting the translation process while the game is still in the beta stage (because the text won't change much by that time). Pokemon Fire Red and Leaf Green released in Europe just over a month after releasing in America. If the localisation process is further streamlined, that gap can be further reduced.

I can honestly see the game releasing in western regions near-simultaneously (D/P saw a 2 month delay, as did Platinum, which is significantly shorter than most previous cases, excepting Pokemon XD). Whether it happens in 2009 or 2010 is harder to judge, but if Nintendo have put effort into streamlining it, I could see a December release, potentially bringing the release period down to less than 3 months to get it out in all major regions.

Note that Australia typically got Pokemon games closer to America's release date than Europes... until DPPt, where our releases aligned with Europe's. This suggests that they are making efforts to shorten the delays.

EDIT:
None of the Gen II Pokemon learn it by Level Up.
And the only Gen I Pokemon who does is Shellder. It would be ludicrous if they made us go out to find a Shellder just to get to the Whirl Islands.

The level-up moves can change between games. They did it for FRLG.

But the problem is, it's unreasonable to expect people to have to get a move by level-up, in order to get to a particular location.

One interesting solution we could conceivably see is a gift pokemon gotten in Olivine having the move.
 
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Thriller

Its almost time
It's not just translation that makes games take awhile.

Ever heard of marketing? They (as in a whole branch of NoA) have to come to a consensus when to release the games, form a marketing plan, and make sure all bugs in the games are worked out.

Trust me, we won't be seeing the American adaptations until March 2010 at the earliest.
 

Aielyn

Well-Known Member
It's not just translation that makes games take awhile.

Ever heard of marketing? They (as in a whole branch of NoA) have to come to a consensus when to release the games, form a marketing plan, and make sure all bugs in the games are worked out.

Trust me, we won't be seeing the American adaptations until March 2010 at the earliest.

How does pokemon marketing differ from any other game? Why would Pokemon take longer to go through the marketing process than any other title? You know, like all those games released near-simultaneously in all regions (such as Mario Kart Wii, which was in all regions within less than 3 weeks, or Super Mario Galaxy, which would have been in all regions in just over 2 weeks if not for the delay in Australia)?

Also, if pokemon games take so long to get the marketing going, why did Pokemon XD release so quickly? If HGSS takes as long as Pokemon XD, and releases in Japan by mid-October, it'll be in all other regions before the end of the year.
 

FloofehKitteh

Dawnflower
None of the Gen II Pokemon learn it by Level Up.
And the only Gen I Pokemon who does is Shellder. It would be ludicrous if they made us go out to find a Shellder just to get to the Whirl Islands.

Ah. Now that I didn't realize. Maybe what Aielyn said, receiving a Pokemon with the move Whirlpool for doing something. It would prove for something interesting.

Then again, the moves Pokemon learn can change, they did between DP and Platinum, why not between DPPt and HGSS?
 

m190049

Local psychopath
So Genius Sonority can localise quickly, but Game Freak can't?
They have different development schedules. Many game makers can make games in multiple languages at the same time.
For example, Animal Crossing: City Folk released in America before Japan.
Game Freak doesn't have the resources for this.

Also, having released the same on both areas usually means releasing the Japanese game a little later than they probably could have.
Game Freak, in all plainness... Chooses not to do this. Sure, they could, but it would slow down production immensely.
They're a Japanese company, and they choose to release in Japan first.
 
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BCVM22

Well-Known Member
How does pokemon marketing differ from any other game? Why would Pokemon take longer to go through the marketing process than any other title? You know, like all those games released near-simultaneously in all regions (such as Mario Kart Wii, which was in all regions within less than 3 weeks, or Super Mario Galaxy, which would have been in all regions in just over 2 weeks if not for the delay in Australia)?

Because those franchises are not Pokémon and Pokémon is not those franchises. Core Pokémon titles have a plethora more text to not only translate, but rewrite, new core titles have countless names and elements that have to be approved for legalities and for standards and the games need to be positioned in order to maximize sales.

why did Pokemon XD release so quickly?

Because for what it was - a watered-down RPG side title with a fair number of Pokémon not found elsewhere in the 3rd generation for which sales expectations weren't sky-high - it was in the best interest to get it out worldwide as soon as possible, particularly in the whirlwind timeframe of the 3rd generation where five core titles were released in the span of about two years. No core title fits any part of the description assigned to XD.

If HGSS takes as long as Pokemon XD, and releases in Japan by mid-October, it'll be in all other regions before the end of the year.

You really need to divest yourself of this insane notion. There is absolutely no way these games see release anywhere besides Japan until the trees start to bloom again in 2010, when Nintendo of America's localization personnel and production facilities have had time to:

- Completely translate the script
- Rewrite the script as necessary
- Get legal and standards approval on any potential new names
- Fix any bugs and glitches found in the Japanese build
- Send the game to gold status and begin pressing copies
- Press, package and ship enough copies to satisfy what will be tremendous demand

That you refuse to understand this does not change it. And in addition to all that, Nintendo has no reason to think about releasing the game any time before the spring, when much of the target demographic happens to be on spring break (disposable time to purchase/play the game); this release frame also gives the production facilities time to press more copies and restock shelves before the summer consumer rush.

Continue thinking you'll have a North American copy in-hand before the New Year's ball drops, but you will find yourself sorely disappointed. Discouragement of suggesting this insanity should be in giant red text in this thread's first post along with the other crud.
 

Aielyn

Well-Known Member
Because those franchises are not Pokémon and Pokémon is not those franchises. Core Pokémon titles have a plethora more text to not only translate, but rewrite, new core titles have countless names and elements that have to be approved for legalities and for standards and the games need to be positioned in order to maximize sales.



Because for what it was - a watered-down RPG side title with a fair number of Pokémon not found elsewhere in the 3rd generation for which sales expectations weren't sky-high - it was in the best interest to get it out worldwide as soon as possible, particularly in the whirlwind timeframe of the 3rd generation where five core titles were released in the span of about two years. No core title fits any part of the description assigned to XD.



You really need to divest yourself of this insane notion. There is absolutely no way these games see release anywhere besides Japan until the trees start to bloom again in 2010, when Nintendo of America's localization personnel and production facilities have had time to:

- Completely translate the script
- Rewrite the script as necessary
- Get legal and standards approval on any potential new names
- Fix any bugs and glitches found in the Japanese build
- Send the game to gold status and begin pressing copies
- Press, package and ship enough copies to satisfy what will be tremendous demand

That you refuse to understand this does not change it. And in addition to all that, Nintendo has no reason to think about releasing the game any time before the spring, when much of the target demographic happens to be on spring break (disposable time to purchase/play the game); this release frame also gives the production facilities time to press more copies and restock shelves before the summer consumer rush.

Continue thinking you'll have a North American copy in-hand before the New Year's ball drops, but you will find yourself sorely disappointed. Discouragement of suggesting this insanity should be in giant red text in this thread's first post along with the other crud.

Let me start by saying I'm Australian, so your assumption that I'm wanting a North American copy or give a crap about the New Year's ball drop is deeply flawed.

Now, onto the rest of it.

Pokemon isn't the only franchise that has a lot of text to translate, so your argument there is moot. Most of the legalities for remakes have already been addressed (because either they were addressed when the originals were made, or they were addressed when the new games in the current generation were made) - the few remaining legalities are relatively easy to handle. As for game positioning, you have to be dense to think that it's better to release a pokemon game early in the new year rather than right in the middle of the holiday sales season, if it's ready earlier. Pokemon is one of those few franchises that can completely ignore the increased competition that occurs during the holiday period.

Pokemon XD is different from the handheld titles, you are right. But it doesn't change the fact that the key part of it - a game with a lot of text that needs translating - is the main argument being given for why it takes longer to release the main handheld titles. Let's go through the four parts you offered for why HGSS and other main handheld pokemon titles get the delay - you said it was localisation time, legalities, quality assurance, and game positioning.

Localisation time: XD and the handheld titles are comparable in terms of volume of text involved. No significant difference.
Legalities: XD was a new story, and thus was a potential source of significant legal issues, while HGSS is a remake, meaning only a small amount of new story/characters that could cause legal issues. Not as big an issue for HGSS as for XD.
Quality assurance: Nintendo's quality assurance would apply equally to both titles. No significant difference.
Game positioning: Pokemon XD was brought out quickly, in time to leverage the holiday sales season in both America and Europe. HGSS would profit similarly from such timing - note that the holiday sales season is far less significant in Japan than in the West. No significant difference.

So I don't see how any of those four can lead to longer delays for HGSS than for XD. The only one I see that could potentially require extra time is localisation, and that not by a huge amount.


You list off things that Nintendo of America's localisation people have to do. And how is that any different from Super Paper Mario - a title that was developed in Japan, with amount of text comparable to that in the Pokemon games (there was a massive amount of text in that game)? Super Paper Mario actually managed to release in America first, about a week and a half before Japan.

That you refuse to understand all this does not change it.
 

BCVM22

Well-Known Member
Let me start by saying I'm Australian, so your assumption that I'm wanting a North American copy or give a crap about the New Year's ball drop is deeply flawed.

The extrapolation is true, then - you want this to be true because it would, by proxy, narrow the gap betwee the North American release and the Australian release.

Pokemon isn't the only franchise that has a lot of text to translate, so your argument there is moot.

Compared to, say your average Mario title? It sure is.

Most of the legalities for remakes have already been addressed (because either they were addressed when the originals were made, or they were addressed when the new games in the current generation were made)

One would have thought that for Platinum as well, and yet two new characters and seven new formes later (a few of which actually did get new names), here we are.

As for game positioning, you have to be dense to think that it's better to release a pokemon game early in the new year rather than right in the middle of the holiday sales season, if it's ready earlier.

Pretty clear, then, that Nintendo doesn't consider it to be viably ready earlier. The Japan-North America gap's been about 6-7 months for every release since Ruby and Sapphire, and at least three of those releases adhered to the fall in Japan/spring in North America timeframe.

Pokemon is one of those few franchises that can completely ignore the increased competition that occurs during the holiday period.

They could, but when you've already found tremendous success with spring releases, why bother? You're already guaranteed great sales because of what you're selling, why not do the extra step and release when there's little to no competition? Again, this is what NoA looks at when they plot out their annual schedules and also again, given that they've done with spring releases for the last two 4th generation releases, that should give you a pretty good idea of what they'll continue to do.

I have a sad hunch it won't, but it should.

You can continue to cite XD all you like, despite the fact that it was the sole Pokémon title of any significance in the last five years to release in such short order worldwide.

All things considered, this is about as worth debating as is whether the moon is made of green cheese or not. You'll see the Japanese release sometime between September and November, the North American release sometime between March and May and the Europe/Oceania releases later in the summer. Complain about this all you like, but it's what'll happen.
 

BurnBabyBurn

Active Member
I picked up Platinum last night, and was flicking through the little manual included and realized something.

It's highly unlikely they'd make a new HM, whether it be Whirlpool or Dive. (by new I mean HM09) Because then how would they make it you can use it? There are only 8 Gyms in one League?

Defeat the Elite Four.
 

Takaru

Werk, Werk, Werk
R/S/E also all had Spring dates in NA. Anyways, in terms of NPCs do you think GSDS will have one atleast introduced or no one? I hope at least one more useless NPC is introduced. Aswell I'm hoping that we get a site of Leaf aswell. The narly thing is we could be getting yet again updated picture for the Kanto gym leaders
 

FloofehKitteh

Dawnflower
Defeat the Elite Four.

I guess. What would they allocate to that then (if this happened)? From memory you can access Lugia before the Elite Four, so they can't put Whirlpool to that then can they? Maybe Rock Climb. idk. I think Rock Climb will stay personally, just because they would easily be able to find somewhere to use it, like in caves and such.
 

Jasho

Active Member
It's highly unlikely they'd make a new HM, whether it be Whirlpool or Dive. (by new I mean HM09) Because then how would they make it you can use it? There are only 8 Gyms in one League, and waiting until you hit Kanto to be able to use it seems kinda silly.

No, they would just change the HMs. You can't let a Pokemon hold a HM, and when you trade it over to DPPt (if it were possible) it would be a normal move. Simple as that.
 

dannydstk

Well-Known Member
I guess. What would they allocate to that then (if this happened)? From memory you can access Lugia before the Elite Four, so they can't put Whirlpool to that then can they? Maybe Rock Climb. idk. I think Rock Climb will stay personally, just because they would easily be able to find somewhere to use it, like in caves and such.

it would depend on which game u were playing gold u got hooh before the ef and silver u got lugia first
 

FloofehKitteh

Dawnflower
No, they would just change the HMs. You can't let a Pokemon hold a HM, and when you trade it over to DPPt (if it were possible) it would be a normal move. Simple as that.

Oh, I think this is most likely to happen. Just throwing my point out there. I think (and hope x_x) it was in this thread that upping the amount of TMs and HMs was being talked about, and it came as a rather late afterthought tbh.

it would depend on which game u were playing gold u got hooh before the ef and silver u got lugia first

Ah, yeah I meant in Silver. x.x


On the topic of release dates, I agree with BCVM, that it'll be a spring release. Not for the points anyone's been making (both sides seem quite logical), but sheerly because it's always been a wait when it comes to Pokemon, and why would they bother changing it now? It's a nuisance and I'd rather they did, but they're stubborn buggers over there, and it's more likely they'll stick to what they've done in the past.
 
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Takaru

Werk, Werk, Werk
Plus imagine all the hype that will build. This game is a super hyped game before it was even annouced. Imagine from now til Spring?
 

m190049

Local psychopath
No, they would just change the HMs. You can't let a Pokemon hold a HM, and when you trade it over to DPPt (if it were possible) it would be a normal move. Simple as that.
Through hacking you can. (Or so I hear.)

Note that they never changed the HMs in between R/S/E/Fr/Lg. While the ones included are different, the HMs are the same.
In R/S/E, HMs 1-8 were included. In Fr/Lg, HMs 1-7 were included. Although HM 8 is actually still encoded into the game.

Changing an HM would create glitching.
 
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