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HO in the Metagame Today

complete legitimacy

pack that fudge
I understand the basis of HO is to ease prediction by Sweeping the crap out of everything, but I still think it's not fun at all. Battles pretty much become mindless, which I find to be a great aspect of Pokemon battling. I'll take a Stall team anyday over trying to Sweep everything.

Oh it's very fun in the sense where "Grrr, you killed my DD Salamence. Then I'll send out my DD Haxorus! Grrr, you killed my DD Haxorus, so I'll send out my Shell Smash Cloyster! SD Ape! Double-boosting Terrakion!" That's just my team, but you get the point. It also makes your opponent **** their pants like five times in a row.
 

Metal Bagon

Play the Guitar Rift
I base my teams around HO, but I have other roles.

Lead: Fake Outer/Weather/Hazards/Suicede (ambipom, Ninetales, Frosglass/Azelf)
Offense: 1 Choiced, One set up sweeper 1 Life Orb Attack/Bulky Attack (Hydregion, Scizor, Kojondo, Conkuldurr
2 Defensive: 1 Wall for common threats (HO gets stalled out here) (Ferrothorn), and one hazards setter/all out sattler (Skarmory/Ludicolo)

In the brakets are just examples of pokemon that fit into those roles, and really, I don't see HO teams breaking apart a defesive core such as Ferrothorn/Jellicent or Jirachi/Gilscor/Vaporeon.
 
I understand the basis of HO is to ease prediction by Sweeping the crap out of everything, but I still think it's not fun at all. Battles pretty much become mindless, which I find to be a great aspect of Pokemon battling. I'll take a Stall team anyday over trying to Sweep everything.

Oh it's very fun in the sense where "Grrr, you killed my DD Salamence. Then I'll send out my DD Haxorus! Grrr, you killed my DD Haxorus, so I'll send out my Shell Smash Cloyster! SD Ape! Double-boosting Terrakion!" That's just my team, but you get the point. It also makes your opponent **** their pants like five times in a row.

I agree with Aquadon. I played Hyper Offense in 4th gen for some time and I did like it since it was fun. However, it is a fact that HO is the mindless type of team when compared with the other types of teams. Hands down really.

Op, you said: "The point of playing HO is to minimize prediction, which increases your chances of winning because prediction is really just guessing."

Yes, the point of Hyper Offense is to minimize prediction, but prediction isn't guessing. Of course, at the start of the match you know nothing about your opponent's team or, and this is something of huge importance, your opponent's playstyle. At the start of the match, you don't really predict as much as you're guessing since nothing points towards what you are playing around for. Nonetheless, as the match progresses, your guesses become educated guesses, based on what your opponent's team looks like and what your opponent has or hasn't done. This is where predictions stop being guesses. When you evaluate what your opponent has done and act accordingly. With Hyper Offense this rarely becomes a factor and you only have to evaluate their team, not the player. This results in less thinking and thus less prediction. Predictions are just guesses when you don't know what to do or what to expect.
 

Mayu808

GIGA DRILL BREAK!!!!
For those ahead that say "stall team FTW" stall is basically dead this gen. There are great walls, but the metagame today spits out wall breakers and then says die. HO got way too much this gen and is a lot more alive this gen then some people are willing to admit. I will admit stall is fun, but nit the entire team. Is sitting there using protect and recovery every turn while you wait for burn or toxic to kill a person anymore fun? I enjoy the salt that the opponent has to eat when dealing with it but otherwise I get bored playing stall, whereas HO is pretty fun blasting through teams like almost nothing. So yeah, HO all the way XD
 

Witch of 'Cos

i love the pee pees
For those ahead that say "stall team FTW" stall is basically dead this gen. There are great walls, but the metagame today spits out wall breakers and then says die. HO got way too much this gen and is a lot more alive this gen then some people are willing to admit. I will admit stall is fun, but nit the entire team. Is sitting there using protect and recovery every turn while you wait for burn or toxic to kill a person anymore fun? I enjoy the salt that the opponent has to eat when dealing with it but otherwise I get bored playing stall, whereas HO is pretty fun blasting through teams like almost nothing. So yeah, HO all the way XD

you do realise that rain stall is one of the more dominant and reliable playstyles atm, right?
 

Mayu808

GIGA DRILL BREAK!!!!
I don't call that stall I call that being uncreative, but yes, technically it's stall. Most of the times though, I only see rain teams that abuse rain with thunderus, toxicroak, scizor, jirachi, and rotom-w. Outside of a rain stall though, it sucks and is REALLY boring IMO. I mean I get using a team to win but come on, can't we be a little more creative outside of tournaments battles? It's no fun seeing the same teams all the time anymore and it's no fun using the same team too after a long enough period of time.
 

windsong

WEST SIDE
I don't call that stall I call that being uncreative, but yes, technically it's stall. Most of the times though, I only see rain teams that abuse rain with thunderus, toxicroak, scizor, jirachi, and rotom-w. Outside of a rain stall though, it sucks and is REALLY boring IMO. I mean I get using a team to win but come on, can't we be a little more creative outside of tournaments battles? It's no fun seeing the same teams all the time anymore and it's no fun using the same team too after a long enough period of time.

The people laddering, especially with the intent to get voting reqs, aren't going to be testing out new random stuff on the basis of being creative, they'll be using solid teams that can consistently win for them.
 

Mayu808

GIGA DRILL BREAK!!!!
^sort of what I meant by tourneys but I get what you mean. I really just play for fun (not to say I don't try to make a good team) but I have this stupid mindset not to use the REALLY overused tactics. Basically in short I'm biased towards rain and ferrojelly. Oh, and blissey. I hate blissey, but that's off topic. HO, I believ, could also be good for laddering. Especially good that it's simple (helps an idiot like me do better) I'm rambling now so in short, I don't use a HO team as my main team but it's still quite fun.
 
^sort of what I meant by tourneys but I get what you mean. I really just play for fun (not to say I don't try to make a good team) but I have this stupid mindset not to use the REALLY overused tactics. Basically in short I'm biased towards rain and ferrojelly. Oh, and blissey. I hate blissey, but that's off topic. HO, I believ, could also be good for laddering. Especially good that it's simple (helps an idiot like me do better) I'm rambling now so in short, I don't use a HO team as my main team but it's still quite fun.

I like this guy :3 I wish I could play some PO (not really, I'd rather play Shoddy like old times). I may be able to play tomorrow or wednesday. Anyone feels like playing me? Preferably a 4th gen match and then a 5th gen (or the other way around). We could make some testing regarding HO and how much better it is in comparison with other types of teams.
 

DarumakkaImposter

Well-Known Member
IDK why people are having problems with HO. It's not like were cheating. It's a fun style to use. Like other people would say stall is fun to use. It's based more on an opinion I guess.... :/ But with the power creep it will find it's peak one day again, just like everything else has. And for those of you who don't understand HO, you can PM me, Oh, Romeo, or complete legitimacy.
 

Mayu808

GIGA DRILL BREAK!!!!
IDK why people are having problems with HO. It's not like were cheating. It's a fun style to use. Like other people would say stall is fun to use. It's based more on an opinion I guess.... :/ But with the power creep it will find it's peak one day again, just like everything else has. And for those of you who don't understand HO, you can PM me, Oh, Romeo, or complete legitimacy.

Or you could have them go to the OP and read the article about HO on smogon :D You know, save yourself or the others some time while still helping to add to someones competitive knowledge.
 
The only person here I would advise you ask about HO is Lizardman / Gamefreak (I forget what his name is here, too lazy to scroll up). He is the only one here with any degree of ladder achievements and overall experience.

And to whoever said stall is dead this gen, that's a joke. Stall is more powerful now than ever.
 

Mayu808

GIGA DRILL BREAK!!!!
^NOOOOO stall IS dead! XD Jk, that was me that said it and after looking into it, stall is pretty effective. I still hate it with a passion, but that's opinion.
 

Gamefreak

Well-Known Member
The only person here I would advise you ask about HO is Lizardman / Gamefreak (I forget what his name is here, too lazy to scroll up). He is the only one here with any degree of ladder achievements and overall experience.

And to whoever said stall is dead this gen, that's a joke. Stall is more powerful now than ever.

Aw thanks. I also have to give credit to OMN_Skynet though since he is also a very great Heavy Offense player, and introduced me to the playstyle ages ago. I feel that team preview really helps with the long term thinking aspect of Heavy Offense, but I also really feel other teams benefit more from it because they actually use prediction.

Stall is a lot better than what people give it credit for. Sure, there is less stall and there is more threats to cover. However, it just gives the team some suprise factor and the metagame tends to be pretty weak to stall.

SD Excadrill can get annoying with Rapid Spin, but it is not much different from LO Starmie + Rapid Spin in DPP OU. CM Reuniclus only beats bad stall. All the leaderboarding stall teams have been well modified to deal with it.

I just hate Nasty Plot Thunderus and those Magnezone teams. Bright side is Nasty Plot Thunderus is a plague to any playstyle. Magnezone is negligible if rain is up too. I just think the main complaint I hear about stall is "There is more broken sweepers, and stall barely got anything to compensate."

What more does stall really need though?
 

Aquadon

TCG Trainer
IDK why people are having problems with HO. It's not like were cheating. It's a fun style to use. Like other people would say stall is fun to use. It's based more on an opinion I guess.... :/ But with the power creep it will find it's peak one day again, just like everything else has. And for those of you who don't understand HO, you can PM me, Oh, Romeo, or complete legitimacy.

I guess I'm one of those people who have more fun with Stall, especially after stalling out Cynthia during the tail end of a 4th Gen Run. I can see how HO can be fun though, in the same way pyromaniacs like blowing **** up. Just not my cup of tea.
 
Heavy Offense is a playstyle. Middle Cup and Little Cup are tiers.

There's Middle Cup now? O_O That's cool.

I remember Skynet as well. I was going to mention him on my previous post but decided not to. What happened to him?
 

Gamefreak

Well-Known Member
There's Middle Cup now? O_O That's cool.

I remember Skynet as well. I was going to mention him on my previous post but decided not to. What happened to him?

Oh, he has a badge on Smogon now. :)

Him, and a few others decided to migrate to Smogon. Some still visit at times though. Skynet is usually on xat.
 

Oh - Romeo

Romeo Romeo...
HO may appear mindless compared to stall but my opinion differs.

With Team Preview, you get the chance to look at all 6 of your opponent's team. You can then take a few seconds to try and identify the opponent's team's biggest threats, and then identify which of your own Pokemon you need to 'save' in order to deal with said threats. You need to identify which Pokemon you are going to use as a lure and subsequent sacrifice in order to find space to set up.

Just earlier I was battling a sand team. Obviously Excadrill was present. I knew he'd bring it out late game, so I needed to save my Keldeo, even though Tyranitar is perfect set-up bait for it. I needed to resist the temptation to switch in Keldeo and go on a little sweep b/c I knew in the late game he'd send Drill in and nothing I have could check it. In short, I used Infernape's Grass Knot to counter the Tyranitar, and his final Pokemon WAS the Drill, mine Keldeo, he used Ariel Ace, I use Secret Sword and win. The only reason I won that battle is because I was visualising the final stages of the battle, even though it was only the beginning of the battle.

There is nothing mindless about literally having to 'visualise' almost the entire game within a few short seconds in order to achieve maximum success with HO. And it's certainly not mindless compared to 'Set up Toxic Spikes, set up spikes, set up ST, use whirlwind, use roost, use recover, use protect, use roar'.

Whilst the same could be said about HO - 'Use Swords Dance, use Bullet Punch, use Bullet Punch, use Bullet Punch', the fact is, a skilled HO player needs to know when to use what sweeper, when to sacrifice it and yes, even when to SWITCH it. It requires a player to see the battle as a whole, it needs a player to look more turns ahead than any other play style.

Thus, HO requires as much, or maybe even more, effort as any other style of play; the only difference is it wins in less turns ;)
 
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