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Hoenn Region Discussion Thread

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Wulava

Chuffed to bits
Staff member
Moderator
Technically, but it's just another name for the Roughneck trainer class that's been around since 5th gen.
Since Gen 1 actually.
Originally Cue Ball and Bikers. Then DPPt changed it into Roughnecks.
 

Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
It's unlikely there actually is any joke on GF's part, but yes, that's the idea.
Especially since the Japanese games come first. If it is indeed a joke/reference, which I highly doubt, then it would be an independent one on the part of TPCi, I believe. (Or whoever it is that translates the games into English. I think it's them, but I don't recall for sure.)
 
It doesn't change the fact that Emerald and ORAS take place at the same time.

Also, seeing as Emerald is canon over RS, the Champion isn't the same.
Of course it's a remake, just not in a literal sense, it's a bit of the old with a bit of the new, like FRLG & HGSS were.

How can Emerald and ORAS take place at the same time? Let me recite the "irrelevant detail" that the characters are 2 years older in ORAS whereas in RSE they are 10, as in all games prior to Gen V. The Delta Episode hints that the differences, such as Wallace being Champion, between RS & E are sequel-istic in that key parts of Emerald could take place in a sequel environment (including evidence such as the Battle Frontier). To say that they take place at the same time is only the case if you completely overlook the evidence.

"Also, seeing as Emerald is canon over RS, the Champion isn't the same". Wow. It's a remake of RS, as you reiterated, that's why it has Steven, the champion of RS Hoenn, as it's champion. How is Emerald canon over RS? The champions of BOTH games are present in the Pokémon World Tournament (Champions), and in Emerald itself it's hinted that Wallace took over from Steven, with his former mentor, Juan, replacing him as the eighth gym leader, as opposed to Steven never being champion (as shown by both of their inclusion in the Champions Tournament).

Also, forget ORAS being based on games like DPPt, HGSS and BW/BW2. ORAS evidently takes place before XY (thanks to Mr Bonding), but only the games in Gen VI could be in this Mega Evo multiverse. Seriously, check the facts and opinions of characters in the Delta Episode before saying that "ORAS take place before every game in Gen order". It could be a different MULTIVERSE, meaning the events of Gens I through V could take place at any time in this continuum, and major differences could be present between how things played out in the other regions compared to this multiverse (I heard on this very forum of a very interesting point concerning Team Plasma). We know the majority of these teams did exist, but in what capacity, greater or lesser, we don't know yet.
 

Psynergy

Strong Winds
Staff member
Super Mod
Especially since the Japanese games come first. If it is indeed a joke/reference, which I highly doubt, then it would be an independent one on the part of TPCi, I believe. (Or whoever it is that translates the games into English. I think it's them, but I don't recall for sure.)
To be fair, localization teams have been known to do this sort of thing, especially more recently. Localization is the reason Henry and Gregor in Fire Emblem Awakening have an interesting personality at all. And I'm sure the myriad of references to media/memes in XY were also somewhat influenced by localization teams as well so this could also possibly be intentional. I personally doubt this instance was intentional but I think the possibility is there. If it is though it's definitely too subtle, otherwise this probably wouldn't a debate.

Of course it's a remake, just not in a literal sense, it's a bit of the old with a bit of the new, like FRLG & HGSS were.
While I'm not going to go into this since I know what you're trying to say, I think you're looking a little too deeply into what makes a remake or not. For all intents and purposes of classification, ORAS is a literal remake of RS. They just took a lot more creative liberties to make the game different than RS, more so than they've done in FR/LG and HG/SS which stay much more true to the originals (arguably to a fault). By definition a literal remake is allowed to do things differently than the original so this doesn't deviate from that definition.
 
While I'm not going to go into this since I know what you're trying to say, I think you're looking a little too deeply into what makes a remake or not. For all intents and purposes of classification, ORAS is a literal remake of RS. They just took a lot more creative liberties to make the game different than RS, more so than they've done in FR/LG and HG/SS which stay much more true to the originals (arguably to a fault). By definition a literal remake is allowed to do things differently than the original so this doesn't deviate from that definition.
We seem to have highlighted the same kind of points, so I admit they are remakes by definition. What I was trying to point out is that unlike FRLG and HGSS, which could replace the canon of their respective predecessors, ORAS doesn't have this liberty, taking place in a completely different point in time compared to RSE, as far as we know.
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
Of course it's a remake, just not in a literal sense, it's a bit of the old with a bit of the new, like FRLG & HGSS were.

How can Emerald and ORAS take place at the same time? Let me recite the "irrelevant detail" that the characters are 2 years older in ORAS whereas in RSE they are 10, as in all games prior to Gen V. The Delta Episode hints that the differences, such as Wallace being Champion, between RS & E are sequel-istic in that key parts of Emerald could take place in a sequel environment (including evidence such as the Battle Frontier). To say that they take place at the same time is only the case if you completely overlook the evidence.
Obviously I meant irrelevant in the sense that the main characters' age is irrelevant to the story. The events of the game are the same either way, and the differences you cited could just as easily be product of it being a different canon as it could be evidence of different timeline placement.

"Also, seeing as Emerald is canon over RS, the Champion isn't the same". Wow. It's a remake of RS, as you reiterated, that's why it has Steven, the champion of RS Hoenn, as it's champion. How is Emerald canon over RS? The champions of BOTH games are present in the Pokémon World Tournament (Champions), and in Emerald itself it's hinted that Wallace took over from Steven, with his former mentor, Juan, replacing him as the eighth gym leader, as opposed to Steven never being champion (as shown by both of their inclusion in the Champions Tournament).
I won't fully get into this, but it is known that the events of Emerald (both teams being at large, the existence of the Mirage Tower, etc.) are referenced in later games. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Steven is a former Champion in Emerald anyway, so his presence at the PWT contradicts nothing.

Also, forget ORAS being based on games like DPPt, HGSS and BW/BW2. ORAS evidently takes place before XY (thanks to Mr Bonding), but only the games in Gen VI could be in this Mega Evo multiverse. Seriously, check the facts and opinions of characters in the Delta Episode before saying that "ORAS take place before every game in Gen order". It could be a different MULTIVERSE, meaning the events of Gens I through V could take place at any time in this continuum, and major differences could be present between how things played out in the other regions compared to this multiverse (I heard on this very forum of a very interesting point concerning Team Plasma). We know the majority of these teams did exist, but in what capacity, greater or lesser, we don't know yet.
Could be; I won't deny this. But is there any grounds to say it's likely? We know that BW and B2W2 are still further ahead in the timeline by virtue of the Royal Unova still being in development, at the very least.

Also, what characters? If there's anything else besides what Zinnia had to say (which was that the two universes diverged solely in the existence of the Ultimate Weapon and Mega Evolution), I've somehow missed it or have forgotten all about it.

We seem to have highlighted the same kind of points, so I admit they are remakes by definition. What I was trying to point out is that unlike FRLG and HGSS, which could replace the canon of their respective predecessors, ORAS doesn't have this liberty, taking place in a completely different point in time compared to RSE, as far as we know.
Do we know that? We know it takes place in a separate continuity along with XY, but that it covers the same rough events (as well as the things Endolise pointed out, such as the development of the Royal Unova) suggests that it takes place at the same time in its continuity as RSE take place in the original continuity.
 
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Do we know that? We know it takes place in a separate continuity along with XY, but that it covers the same rough events (as well as the things Endolise pointed out, such as the development of the Royal Unova) suggests that it takes place at the same time in its continuity as RSE take place in the original continuity.
Well, let's take a look at the original timeline. Gen VI is sketchy in it, but if it's in there it's around the same time as BW2. RSE takes place at ~ the same time as FRLG, Gen I/Gen III. Gen II/IV take place 3 years later, at around the same time. It is unknown how long time has passed between the end of Gen II/IV and the start of Gen V (Black and White), but we can assume from the drastic advance in technology and the Team Rocket Grunt having a family, and more importantly a child, it could well be 5-10 years later. BW2 takes place 2 years after this, with XY either taking place around the same time or perhaps a little further on (most likely no more than 5 years due to the way in which Plasma, I believe, is referenced; however this could be thrown out of the water by the Multiverse theory, as the events of BW2 may or may not have taken place,and in what capacity the team was, we don't know - as far as we know they could just be protesting for Pokémon rights). That means that theoretically there is around 10 to 15 years inbetween the start of Gen I/Gen III and the end of BW2.

That's where it gets confusing though. We know it takes place before XY & BW/BW2 due to the Mr Bonding and Royal Unova events respectively (or at least this multiverse's version of Unova). Both XY and ORAS reference the war being 3000 years ago, but that doesn't mean they take place at exactly the same time - it's like saying Pokémon started 20 years ago; we round things in the same way NPCs would as opposed to being so perdantic. If we assume the events of RSE, or at least parts of it, take place as references (the continuous 10/11 year ago thing) then we could place it 10 or 11 years after when RSE takes place in the original timeline, meaning it takes place ~ the same time as Gen V, or slightly prior to it. Also, seeing as the Royal Unova is still being constructed, may I just point out that we have no clue as to how long it will take? That would help confirm the placing of the games in this timeline, sure, and I've just noticed the Royal Unova is being constructed in Unova...so what ship are they constructing in Stern's Shipyard?

Also, I very much doubt there's a 10 - 20 year gap between XY and ORAS (as this is around the size of the gap between Gen I and Gen V just widened a tad), considering the states of Mega Evolution in both games.
 

Endolise

TengenToppaBoogaloo
That's where it gets confusing though.
Not if you assume that Emerald and ORAS, in their respective timelines, take place at around the same year.

Also, seeing as the Royal Unova is still being constructed, may I just point out that we have no clue as to how long it will take? That would help confirm the placing of the games in this timeline, sure, and I've just noticed the Royal Unova is being constructed in Unova...so what ship are they constructing in Stern's Shipyard?
No, we do not know how long it will take for the Royal Unova to be completed. The plate with the description next to the model had "faded too much" to be read.

As for the ship in the shipyard, does it really matter? It's just a ship.

Also, I very much doubt there's a 10 - 20 year gap between XY and ORAS (as this is around the size of the gap between Gen I and Gen V just widened a tad), considering the states of Mega Evolution in both games.
What "states of Mega Evolution," though? The people who study Mega Evolution in XY know just as much as those in ORAS. They know all of what's required in order to make it happen, but that's been the case for hundreds of years, as evidenced by the Tower of Mastery. The Draconids have some hidden knowledge about it, but they're a secret society that isn't willing to share its information with the public. But if the general knowledge of it has been static for that long, then an additional 10-20 years probably won't make that much of a difference. By the time that XY ends, Sycamore is only just starting to make some breakthroughs regarding it.
 

Andrew Shard

Shards of Fury...
Not if you assume that Emerald and ORAS, in their respective timelines, take place at around the same year.



No, we do not know how long it will take for the Royal Unova to be completed. The plate with the description next to the model had "faded too much" to be read.

As for the ship in the shipyard, does it really matter? It's just a ship.



What "states of Mega Evolution," though? The people who study Mega Evolution in XY know just as much as those in ORAS. They know all of what's required in order to make it happen, but that's been the case for hundreds of years, as evidenced by the Tower of Mastery. The Draconids have some hidden knowledge about it, but they're a secret society that isn't willing to share its information with the public. But if the general knowledge of it has been static for that long, then an additional 10-20 years probably won't make that much of a difference. By the time that XY ends, Sycamore is only just starting to make some breakthroughs regarding it.

If I'm right, XY events take place 1 or two years after Unova. I think that on your way to Geosenge town, there is a man that tells you that Corless was there and there are more evidences throughout the game I think
 

Bakphoon™

Heated Fury
So apparently we can go to the SS Tidal in the games? Well, that seems fun, having a short trip in the boat along with another mega stone..
 

Akashin

Well-Known Member
Also, seeing as the Royal Unova is still being constructed, may I just point out that we have no clue as to how long it will take? That would help confirm the placing of the games in this timeline, sure, and I've just noticed the Royal Unova is being constructed in Unova...so what ship are they constructing in Stern's Shipyard?
Of course we don't know. I was under the impression that not knowing was a direct reference to not having a clear idea of how long after Platinum/HGSS BW take place.

Endolise covered everything else I had to say, so there's no real need for me to reiterate all of it. Like he said, issues only arise if we contest the idea that Emerald and ORAS are concurrent in their respective timelines.

If I'm right, XY events take place 1 or two years after Unova. I think that on your way to Geosenge town, there is a man that tells you that Corless was there and there are more evidences throughout the game I think
I could have sworn B2W2 and XY were confirmed to take place at the same time. Am I mistaken?
 
this has probably been mentioned before, but I just realized that the puddle at the very start of the intro seems to be the puddle on Route 103 - the view of the mountains in the background is the exact same, the foliage is the same. the only issue is that Skitty's tail can be seen in the intro, but it can't be found on Route 103.

not huge news by any means, I just never realized that scene in the intro was meant to represent an actual specific in-game location. a nice touch.
 
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Lorde

Banned
this has probably been mentioned before, but I just realized that the puddle at the very start of the intro seems to be the puddle on Route 103 - the view of the mountains in the background is the exact same, the foliage is the same. the only issue is that Skitty's tail can be seen in the intro, but it can't be found on Route 103.

not huge news by any means, I just never realized that scene in the intro was meant to represent an actual specific in-game location. a nice touch.
I also liked that touch. I realized that it was supposed to be the puddle from the start of the games right when I saw Brendan standing by it on Route 103 in Omega Ruby.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
I could have sworn B2W2 and XY were confirmed to take place at the same time. Am I mistaken?
One of the storyboard writers confirmed it on his twitter a while ago, but considering the recon, it's probably more along the lines that B2W2 takes place in its timeline at the same time that XY does in the parallel one (and vice-versa for their equivalents).
 
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Wulava

Chuffed to bits
Staff member
Moderator
A lot of references still point to ORAS taking years before BW and XY.
So the official timeline is still canon, regardless of parallel universes.

Original tweet:
赤緑≒RS→金銀≒DPPt→BW→BW2≒XY

RBYFRLG/RSEORAS > 3 years > GSCHGSS/DPPt > Caitlin's age difference > BW > 2 years > B2W2/XY
 
To be honest, I think the whole alternate universe theory is just ridiculous. The main series games should stay in the same universe as each other, the very idea is farfetch'd in my opinion. Also they should not have put the Battle Maison in these games , I don't see the point as it is likely to reappear in the next Kalos game. Game Freak made a bad call not putting the Battle Frontier in since Delta Emerald ain't likely to happen. The Soaring in Hoenn feature is good, but it doesn't make up for the BF being cut from the games.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
To be honest, I think the whole alternate universe theory is just ridiculous. The main series games should stay in the same universe as each other, the very idea is farfetch'd in my opinion. Also they should not have put the Battle Maison in these games , I don't see the point as it is likely to reappear in the next Kalos game. Game Freak made a bad call not putting the Battle Frontier in since Delta Emerald ain't likely to happen. The Soaring in Hoenn feature is good, but it doesn't make up for the BF being cut from the games.
Technically, there has always been parallel universes. In one, Red picks a Charamander as his starter, another it's a Bulbasaur. Sometime Calem fights Team Flare, sometimes it's Serena. One sees Lucas battle with Palkia, another he faces Dialga. Team Magma awakes Groudon in one, Team Aqua awakens Kyogre in another, and both are awakened and Rayquaza interferes in yet another. Every time a new game is started or alternate game versions are made, a new universe is born. As referenced in a funny easter egg in the Delta Episode, the Game Boy Link Cable, as well as DS/3DS wireless connection/wi-fi is a method of travelling between the universes, how else could two people who look exactly the same with virtually identical backstories battle each other? It just so happens that the fact that this happens is referenced in-game this time.
 

Emperor Empoleon

Honor of Kalos
I think the first in-game reference to that was in BW. There's a guy in Opelucid City who makes mention of the opposite version of the city, and wants you to find him Pokemon with Charge from the "other world" (the opposite game).
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I think the first in-game reference to that was in BW. There's a guy in Opelucid City who makes mention of the opposite version of the city, and wants you to find him Pokemon with Charge from the "other world" (the opposite game).
Black and White/Black and White 2 were actually pretty big on the parallel universe ideas, So big that even the movies reflected it (the Reshiram and Zekrom movies obviously took place in parallel universes).
 

TheDragonKing

King of dragons
I think this whole "alternate universes" thing was a long time coming. GF was bound to reference it at some point. There is a general timeline through the generations, and alternate histories for wether certain events happen the way they do. In one continuity Team Galactic could choose to go after Palkia, in another Dialga, and in yet another both. Then of course there's a completely different universe altogether where AZ ended the Kalosian War with the Ultimate Weapon, and Mega Evolution came to be. In a completely different universe the Kalosian War never happened, and Mega Evolution does not exist. And in each of those universes are separate continuities depending on what starter you pick, what legendary is the focus of the villains, etc. This is more confusing than Zelda. :/ The big question is, how do the events of other generations play out in the Mega Evolution universe? Kanto, Johto, Sinnoh, and Unova Confirmed!!
 
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