Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

[Sadib]

Not reading this whole thread, but as an American, homosexuality SHOULD be a non-issue, as there are WAY more important things to worry about, such as jobs, the economy, the debt we're in, illegal immigration, foreign policy in the middle east, etc.

I don't support homosexuality, but I say let people do what they want and get back to worrying about things that matter.

I think gay rights are as or even more important than the issues you listed. Jobs? I'm a student. The economy? My dad's rich. The dept? Who cares? It's just going to grow forever. Illegal immigration? They're only stealing the jobs that no one else wants to do. The only other issue that I care is religious extremism, which is the reason that gay's don't have their rights in the first place.

 

[7 tyranitars]

Not reading this whole thread, but as an American, homosexuality SHOULD be a non-issue, as there are WAY more important things to worry about, such as jobs, the economy, the debt we're in, illegal immigration, foreign policy in the middle east, etc.

I don't support homosexuality, but I say let people do what they want and get back to worrying about things that matter.

For you those subjects are more important. but for others involved they are obviously not.

 

[ebevan91]

I think gay rights are as or even more important than the issues you listed. Jobs? I'm a student. The economy? My dad's rich. The dept? Who cares? It's just going to grow forever. Illegal immigration? They're only stealing the jobs that no one else wants to do. The only other issue that I care is religious extremism, which is the reason that gay's don't have their rights in the first place.

-If you're a student, how will you pay off tuition? You need a job to pay it off.

-Your dad isn't the only person in the country. Most Americans are middle or lower class.

-The debt is obviously going to keep growing but it needs to be slowed.

-There's more to illegal immigration than jobs.

 

[Malanu]

I lol'd
Well gay rights do matter. Until all rights are equal, the talk will never end. If you're a legal American, why should you lack a right just because of who you love? And hell. Gay marriages would stimulate even more money. Since marriages are costly and all.

I was watching a comedy movie about a family, and one of the sons happened to be gay. He got married to his fiance in the movie. His fiance got married in a pretty pink dress with brides maids. I felt uncomfortable with this. I felt the movie followed the " Who's the wife" stereotype. Considering one was all girly and snazzy and the other was bulky and tough. Meh. Thoughts? o3o

You do realize that for all rights to be equal, those who don't want to support gay rights, deserve an equal voice too?

I'm old school and it took quite a lot of soul searching to change my perspective (prejudice if you will!). However having Gay/lesbian friends did lot to educate me on the reasons equality is mandatory. But remember to look at history and see how long it takes to get change to really happen. I would be surprised if I will be alive to see gays finally gain their rights. That' a shame too.

 

[Sadib]

-If you're a student, how will you pay off tuition? You need a job to pay it off.

-Your dad isn't the only person in the country. Most Americans are middle or lower class.

-The debt is obviously going to keep growing but it needs to be slowed.

-There's more to illegal immigration than jobs.

I also have a job on campus, but I digress. Gay rights are still very important.

 

[7 tyranitars]

-If you're a student, how will you pay off tuition? You need a job to pay it off.

-Your dad isn't the only person in the country. Most Americans are middle or lower class.

-The debt is obviously going to keep growing but it needs to be slowed.

-There's more to illegal immigration than jobs.

First of all I don't ****ing care about Americans. Not everyone in the world is an american and ofcourse it have to be an american to be so damn america-centred here this thread isn't about AMURICA.

Secondly I am not rich but I think Gay rights are important.

 

[ebevan91]

First of all I don't ****ing care about Americans. Not everyone in the world is an american and ofcourse it have to be an american to be so damn america-centred here this thread isn't about AMURICA.

Secondly I am not rich but I think Gay rights are important.

Then why do you care about what I even posted? I clearly said "AS AN AMERICAN", and that should've implied that I was talking about AMERICA, not the rest of the world.

I simply stated my opinion in a non-hostile manner and you attacked me. Learn some respect.

Did you even read my entire post? I said I don't support homosexuality, but I never said I was against it either.

Imagine a sports team hundreds to thousands of miles away, do I support them? No probably not. Am I against them? Why should I be? I also said it' be best if we let people do what they want to, and start focusing on other issues.

 

[Psychic]

Calm down, everyone. This thread is about homosexuality, not other issues and whether or not they affect you. Also, while many of our members are American, posters should be aware that not all debtors are from the same country and so not all the same laws apply.

Please keep posts on-topic.

You do realize that for all rights to be equal, those who don't want to support gay rights, deserve an equal voice too?

I get the whole "free speech" thing, but free speech does not mean you are free of criticism or judgement. You can say you hate blacks and women and atheists and vegetarians all you want, but you should damn well expect the response you're going to receive to it. Personally, I don't think racism, sexism, homophobia or any kind of hate against a group of people is an acceptable stance to take, especially not in this day and age.

So yeah, you can talk about how much you don't believe in/like X, but prepare to get a less-than-pleasant response.

~Psychic

 

[Malanu]

I get the whole "free speech" thing, but free speech does not mean you are free of criticism or judgement. You can say you hate blacks and women and atheists and vegetarians all you want, but you should damn well expect the response you're going to receive to it. Personally, I don't think racism, sexism, homophobia or any kind of hate against a group of people is an acceptable stance to take, especially not in this day and age.

So yeah, you can talk about how much you don't believe in/like X, but prepare to get a less-than-pleasant response.

~Psychic

Precisely!If the gays and all the people fighting to make change, expect the hate to just roll over and die, they are sorely mistaken. AND the haters get to speak their mind and criticize that which they don't like just as those advocating change criticize the stubborn bigot. It's a two way street or as I prefer a double edged sword. Whats more once the tide changes, they get to bring up all the same arguments used to shame them, when they have to "fight the good fight." and FYI I do expect people to disagree with every stance I have. Why? Because there will always (Yes... faulty generalization) be someone who is opposed to what we believe!

 

[AlexandriaTheMixed]

You do realize that for all rights to be equal, those who don't want to support gay rights, deserve an equal voice too?

I'm old school and it took quite a lot of soul searching to change my perspective (prejudice if you will!). However having Gay/lesbian friends did lot to educate me on the reasons equality is mandatory. But remember to look at history and see how long it takes to get change to really happen. I would be surprised if I will be alive to see gays finally gain their rights. That' a shame too.

The only reasons people are against homosexuality are religion, and because "it's icky".

My religion says no one should eat cheese. I also don't like it. I think it should be illegal because of those reasons.

That didn't prove a thiong I just wanted to state an argument to the world.

Spoiler: USA stuff

But, while it is allowed, it's hate speech. And it should be unallowed because of the constitution. It drives people to kill themselves. Saying you don't like red shirts may be hate speech against red shirts, but it's not making anyone feel bad because they wear red shirts

If that type of speech is enough to make hundreds, even thousands of children and young adults kill themselves, why should it be allowed? Why?

I get the whole "free speech" thing, but free speech does not mean you are free of criticism or judgement. You can say you hate blacks and women and atheists and vegetarians all you want, but you should damn well expect the response you're going to receive to it. Personally, I don't think racism, sexism, homophobia or any kind of hate against a group of people is an acceptable stance to take, especially not in this day and age.

So yeah, you can talk about how much you don't believe in/like X, but prepare to get a less-than-pleasant response.

~Psychic

^ All of this. Just, all of it.

Precisely!If the gays and all the people fighting to make change, expect the hate to just roll over and die, they are sorely mistaken. AND the haters get to speak their mind and criticize that which they don't like just as those advocating change criticize the stubborn bigot. It's a two way street or as I prefer a double edged sword. Whats more once the tide changes, they get to bring up all the same arguments used to shame them, when they have to "fight the good fight." and FYI I do expect people to disagree with every stance I have. Why? Because there will always (Yes... faulty generalization) be someone who is opposed to what we believe!

It's a good thing people disagree on things. If they didn't, gays would have absolutely no rights, and would still be capitally punished for being gay in England. Someone had to start disagree'ing with slavery in America, and then more and more people did; and then it ended. And while racism may still be around it's not really heard of.

 

[Malanu]

The only reasons people are against homosexuality are religion, and because "it's icky".

That's a faulty Generalization. But that's ok!

My religion says no one should eat cheese. I also don't like it. I think it should be illegal because of those reasons.

Folks can't eat cows or grapes for those reasons, so I don't see why your point is unreasonable.

That didn't prove a thing I just wanted to state an argument to the world.

Feel better now?

But, while it is allowed, it's hate speech. And it should be unallowed because of the constitution. It drives people to kill themselves. Saying you don't like red shirts may be hate speech against red shirts, but it's not making anyone feel bad because they wear red shirts

Why is it hate speech Lady B? I can not like something and not be violently disposed to it! people everyday have negative opinions without wanting to hurt. To force change is to cause violence. You and I are disagreeing right now... should that be illegal then?

If that type of speech is enough to make hundreds, even thousands of children and young adults kill themselves, why should it be allowed? Why?

Because if they killed themselves over those words they may well have done so over plaid coming back! Words are the most harmless thing unless you give them power. People have been being bullied since the beginning, why MUST we all accept one groups truth over another?

It's a good thing people disagree on things. If they didn't, gays would have absolutely no rights, and would still be capitally punished for being gay in England. Someone had to start disagreeing with slavery in America, and then more and more people did; and then it ended. And while racism may still be around it's not really heard of.

This is my point too. there will always be disagreement in the world. To paraphrase marriage Councillors, 'two people will never agree on everything. How they handle this disagreement will determine how well they will coexist.' This is something everyone needs to wrap their head around.

 

[Psychic]

Precisely!If the gays and all the people fighting to make change, expect the hate to just roll over and die, they are sorely mistaken.

I don't really see what your point is. There are still white supremacist groups and misogynistic "traditionalists" out there who believe blacks and women don't deserve the rights they had to fight for, and there are still people who think that racism and sexism are completely dead. So we have to ignore and/or educate people when necessary. Not every opinion is a "good" opinion - when someone starts insisting the world is flat, you try to show them that it's not, and you move on.

Folks can't eat cows or grapes for those reasons, so I don't see why your point is unreasonable.

You really don't think it's unreasonable for me to force my dietary constraints onto an entire nation? Just because a group prescribes to a set of rules does not give them the right to force those rules onto others. To my understanding, that's why the separation of church and state exists, and it's also why I can't force you to obey Jewish customs like fasting or circumcising your male babies just because I do.

The point is that I can practice what I please (so long as it doesn't hurt anyone), but I cannot force anyone else to do the same. Just because he's a monk who can never have sex or marry doesn't mean he can force everybody else to do the same.

Why is it hate speech Lady B? I can not like something and not be violently disposed to it! people everyday have negative opinions without wanting to hurt. To force change is to cause violence.

There's a difference between "I don't like your skin colour shirt" and "YOUR SHIRT IS A SIN AGAINST NATURE AND YOU'RE A HORRIBLE PERSON AND I REFUSE TO GRANT YOU THE RIGHTS OTHER PEOPLE WITH OTHER TYPES OF SHIRTS ENJOY." When your personal opinion results in degrading and removing the rights of another person, there is something really messed up.

I hate to break it to you, but there is already a history of violence against homosexuals. It's still an offense punishable by death in some countries. But you know what had to happen for women to gain their rights? Suffrage. And here I am today as a result.

Because if they killed themselves over those words they may well have done so over plaid coming back! Words are the most harmless thing unless you give them power. People have been being bullied since the beginning,

I don't think you realize that you're victim-blaming here, and that that is incredibly offensive to the kids who have lost their lives and families and friends who have had to deal with it. "They should grow a tougher skin" is NOT an excuse for bullying or allowing bullying to continue. Not all bullying is verbal. Adults have been and still are assaulted for their sexuality. And words are not harmless when the words dehumanize or aim to remove the rights of others.

why MUST we all accept one groups truth over another?

Sorry, but when one group's "truth" results in degradation, bullying and suicide, I am absolutely, 100% ready to rule them out. When all you preach is hate, you're not worth listening to. The fact that you would defend this kind of bs is beyond words.


~Psychic

 

[JDavidC]

As far as religion is concerned, at least with the Bible, there are a few passages that made the acts of homosexual sex forbidden, and I'd imagine this was due to (bigger back then) health risks. Today, people can look into the health risks of doing this, and at least make informed decisions that will not be harmful to themselves of their partners. Too often I see passages used as reasons to say the behaviour is always sinful today with no exceptions, without realising that maybe things were different in history. Some rules change over time, some do not. I don't have any problem with marriages between two people of any sort.

 

[Sonic Boom]

David Blankenhorn, one of the leading advocates of California's Proposition 8, has "switched sides," so to speak.

 

[mattj]

As far as religion is concerned, at least with the Bible, there are a few passages that made the acts of homosexual sex forbidden, and I'd imagine this was due to (bigger back then) health risks. Today, people can look into the health risks of doing this, and at least make informed decisions that will not be harmful to themselves of their partners.

The Bible never once lists health reasons as the reason the God of the Bible condemns the act of homosexuality. It always list the fact that God abhors it. Its most likely completely arbitrary. Whether or not its healthy has nothing to do with whether or not its a Biblical sin.

Too often I see passages used as reasons to say the behaviour is always sinful today with no exceptions, without realising that maybe things were different in history. Some rules change over time, some do not. I don't have any problem with marriages between two people of any sort.

If the Bible says "Thou shalt not XXX." and never says "Okay, its cool now." Why should anyone believe that the God of the Bible has changed his opinion?

And concerning hate speech, there's quite a difference between calmly telling a homosexual that you disagree with them on Biblical grounds, and screaming profanity in their face and that they're going to burn in hell. You can firmly disagree with someone without resorting to hate speech. Homosexuals firmly disagree with me that they're going to hell. They firmly believe that my religion is wrong. I don't accuse any of them (well 99.9% of them) of resorting to hate speech.

 

[Pesky Persian]

I can actually understand Malanu's point. It's possible to be opposed to someone's actions/lifestyle/beliefs/etc. and not be hateful about it. There are plenty of things people do that are, for the most part, socially acceptable but I don't necessarily agree with or would want for my life. That doesn't mean I demonize those people or say that they're in the wrong. In the U.S. at least, people have free speech and are allowed to exercise that right and that's fine. I think everyone would agree that hate speech of any kind is inappropriate and wrong. Disagreeing in a civil way is perfectly acceptable.

It is a little frustrating that disagreeing means that people have to fight for the right to marry. I personally feel that it never should have been up for debate in the first place considering straight people automatically had the right in the first place without having to deal with voting. And it certainly hasn't always been one man and one women forever considering polygamy was legal in the U.S. at one point. I don't see why gay marriage is such a heated issue.

 

[Psychic]

Zavn, this is a debate, and linking to a movie without any explanation is meaningless and not useful. Please don't do it again.

As far as religion is concerned, at least with the Bible, there are a few passages that made the acts of homosexual sex forbidden, and I'd imagine this was due to (bigger back then) health risks.

The weird thing is that heterosexuals engage in the same sexual acts (ie oral and anal) that homosexuals do, just with different gendered partners. "Sodomy" is literally everything that isn't vaginal intercourse, in which case, in this day and age, sodomy abounds! *le gasp*

Just pointing it out, really. Anal intercourse certainly does still carry more health risks than other acts, but it's not something that only gay men participate in - everyone has a butt, after all.

The Bible never once lists health reasons as the reason the God of the Bible condemns the act of homosexuality. It always list the fact that God abhors it. Its most likely completely arbitrary. Whether or not its healthy has nothing to do with whether or not its a Biblical sin.If the Bible says "Thou shalt not XXX." and never says "Okay, its cool now." Why should anyone believe that the God of the Bible has changed his opinion?

Actually, some scholars have noted that a lot of Old Testament dietary laws made for better eating habits (like pig meal spoiled faster than other meat, making it a good thing to avoid). In fact, the ritual of washing one's hands during prayers before meals saved a lot of Jews during the Black Plague. Whether or not these laws were created with that intention is obviously unknown, but the impact on health is certainly there!

And concerning hate speech, there's quite a difference between calmly telling a homosexual that you disagree with them on Biblical grounds, and screaming profanity in their face and that they're going to burn in hell. You can firmly disagree with someone without resorting to hate speech. Homosexuals firmly disagree with me that they're going to hell. They firmly believe that my religion is wrong. I don't accuse any of them (well 99.9% of them) of resorting to hate speech.

Of course there's a difference, I didn't mean to sound as if I thought otherwise. Of course, there's still the question of "do you actually need to tell people they are going to burn in hell or can you keep it to yourself?" I can believe everyone who works on the Las Vegas strip is going to die horribly for the sin of working on the Las Vegas strip, but that's my own/my group's opinion and I don't need to insist to others it's true. And if people don't respond nicely (because really, people don't like to hear about how they're damned sinners) and think I'm wrong, I'll either learn to live with it or stop saying it out loud.

I can actually understand Malanu's point. It's possible to be opposed to someone's actions/lifestyle/beliefs/etc. and not be hateful about it. There are plenty of things people do that are, for the most part, socially acceptable but I don't necessarily agree with or would want for my life. That doesn't mean I demonize those people or say that they're in the wrong.

Again, sure, being opposed and being hateful aren't the same thing. Either way, you're not free of criticism, of course.

But as you said, the fact that some people have certain opinions shouldn't result in basic rights consequently being denied from that group, and that's an underlying but vital issue. I don't have to like or agree with vegetarians, but when I start trying to deny them rights (especially if my efforts succeed), there is a problem.

~Psychic

 

[Hox]

First of all I don't ****ing care about Americans. Not everyone in the world is an american and ofcourse it have to be an american to be so damn america-centred here this thread isn't about AMURICA.

Secondly I am not rich but I think Gay rights are important.

Yes, but the gay marriage debate IS primarily centered in America you dolt, as America is the least friendly developed Western nation towards gay rights/issues. Is this debate seriously talked about contentiously wherever the hell you're from? Oh right, it isn't. So shutup.

 

[Manafi's Dream]

The Bible never once lists health reasons as the reason the God of the Bible condemns the act of homosexuality. It always list the fact that God abhors it. Its most likely completely arbitrary. Whether or not its healthy has nothing to do with whether or not its a Biblical sin.If the Bible says "Thou shalt not XXX." and never says "Okay, its cool now." Why should anyone believe that the God of the Bible has changed his opinion?

Just as God does not condone certain acts (in this case, homosexuality), does He not also say we can pray for forgiveness for our sins? Did He not send His Son to die on the cross to save us from our sins? What makes the sin of homosexuality anymore offensive than lying, cheating, or stealing? Two of the aforementioned are even in the Ten Commandments. Is homosexuality ever mentioned in the Ten Commandments? Better review them, because there is a surprising lack of such instruction in them. The way I interpret Scripture: so long as you respect the Commandments, I would say homosexuality is not God's largest concern.

As for the issue of procreation:

Sure, God tells us to go forth and multiply, but look at us now; are we in need of more people? We are approaching 7 million as it is. I think God will turn a blind eye these days. And another thing, so what if gays don't have children? Can they not make up for it by adopting a child, who otherwise would not have had as high quality of life, who may have even died without their intervention? God works in beautiful ways, balancing "evil" with good. Homosexuality is probably a hard thing to keep people out of Heaven for committing, especially if they are upstanding Christians with otherwise clean slates.

 

[Sapphiredragon929]

Yes, but the gay marriage debate IS primarily centered in America you dolt, as America is the least friendly developed Western nation towards gay rights/issues. Is this debate seriously talked about contentiously wherever the hell you're from? Oh right, it isn't. So shutup.

Sure is a US centric issue all right. Dark blue is where Gay marriage is legal. Light Blue is where Gay marriage is recognized, but not legal. Regular blue is where there are other types of gay partnerships or w/e. Gray means gay unions aren't recognized. Yellow to brown means that it's illegal (in some cases, punishable by death).

It's not primarily centered in America. It's only centered in America because you live in it :geg. Europe probably has just as many debates and attempts to get it legalized, as does places like Japan or Russia. And, even more severe (since this thread encompasses homosexuality in general, not just gay marriage) nearly every country in the middle east, and africa have it as an illicit act. I'm sure there are plenty of debates raging about the legality of it there and around the world. So, no, it's not just focused in America.