Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

[TheFightingPikachu]

I believe that if you're gay, you're gay. If you're bisexual then you're bisexual. I won't say your sexuality is ever set, but I will say it's impossible to make a conscious choice to change it. And it's certainly not as simple as changing ones environment like MattJ seems to be implying.

Either that just made things more confusing, or you're saying sexuality is completely inborn, but can get repressed (or something like that) by external influences. Would you please explain?

They do, but not nearly to the degree that you're trying to imply.

Then it doesn't sound like you should have applied the term "key factor" to environmental influences.

 

[Finch.]

I grew up in a conservative house with a lot of induced fear involving hellfire and demons and the like...am I a fear-mongerring nut?

No. And I would never say sexuality can be placed someone by poor parenting, or by things of that nature. I think it's genetic, hormonal...it isn't a mental thing, because sexuality, the part of you that's attracted to others...that can't change. It can be suppressed, or 'controlled'..but I don't that it really works long-term.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Could you offer at least some support for your argument? We've discussed some studies which purport to show that it is genetic or hormonal, but which have some flaws.

 

[Eterna]

Either that just made things more confusing, or you're saying sexuality is completely inborn, but can get repressed (or something like that) by external influences. Would you please explain?

I think, as evidenced by differing brain structures and the such, that we are too some degree born with our orientations. I think the environment we grow in either nurtures that orientation or discourages it, but does not change it. I do not believe an environment can change what your orientation is, if that was the case peoples orientations would change all the time.

 

[mattj]

I believe that if you're gay, you're gay. If you're bisexual then you're bisexual. I won't say your sexuality is ever set, but I will say it's impossible to make a conscious choice to change it. And it's certainly not as simple as changing ones environment like MattJ seems to be implying.



They do, but not nearly to the degree that you're trying to imply.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/f074207014787j73/

It really seems to me that this whole "Sexual orientation just CAN'T change, it just CAN'T!" line is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Every Tom Dick and Harry knows that sexuality changes in myriad ways throughout a person's lifetime. People choose to be monogamous. People choose to be asexual. At one point in one's life one may be attracted to leggy redheads. At another they may be attracted to long haired brunettes. We also know that sexuality is formed largely by environment. The kinds of things that look attractive to Japanese men and women are nothing like what looks attractive to Indian men and women, nor American men and women. Take a kid from one society and transplant them in the other and *whaddayaknow* they tend to be attracted to the ideal chosen by their society.

We've already provided evidence that sexuality does change, and that factors such as choice, and determination, and background, and religion, and family play a role in that change. What evidence do you have that change is impossible?

 

[Eterna]

http://www.springerlink.com/content/f074207014787j73/

It really seems to me that this whole "Sexual orientation just CAN'T change, it just CAN'T!" line is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Every Tom Dick and Harry knows that sexuality changes in myriad ways throughout a person's lifetime. People choose to be monogamous. People choose to be asexual. At one point in one's life one may be attracted to leggy redheads. At another they may be attracted to long haired brunettes. We also know that sexuality is formed largely by environment. The kinds of things that look attractive to Japanese men and women are nothing like what looks attractive to Indian men and women, nor American men and women. Take a kid from one society and transplant them in the other and *whaddayaknow* they tend to be attracted to the ideal chosen by their society.

We've already provided evidence that sexuality does change, and that factors such as choice, and determination, and background, and religion, and family play a role in that change. What evidence do you have that change is impossible?

I never said sexual orientation can't change, I said we can't make the conscious choice to change it. It's fluid, very much so in puberty. But at the same time, many straight people never exhibit any gay tendencies or behaviour. That at the least implies some aspects of sexual orientation are inborn.

But you can't wake up one day and say "I don't want to be gay anymore, I'll go see a Therapist!!"

And your source requires a subscription to read, which leads me to believe that you yourself haven't even read it and are using it as a source based on it's title alone. Very unwise.

 

[Skydra]

Sorry for commenting on a slightly older post, but I can't let a response to a response slip away.

Rightful criticism I would add. As you said, it makes people feel fulfilled and validated for what they've been facing.

I think I should have said it differently. Closer to what I mean is that they still exist to fulfill and validate, to borrow your vocabulary, rather than fight racism, which is reduced (but not removed) from today's society.

Freedom of speech isn't even the point of the debate. The question is about the entire idea behind a straight pride parade and how they can be seen as problematic/offensive. We can use our freedom of speech to debate the issue and we shouldn't have to expect people to walk in and add nothing to the debate while they're trying to look smart.

I'm ****ing adding my opinion, not trying to look smart. Try to accept what I say, instead of turning it into some conspiracy to inflate my ego. I was just saying that you can't make or stop anyone in having a parade, and that it shouldn't need to be taken as offensive if somebody wants to express their opinion. I like to be tolerant of the beliefs of others.

Back to the subject at hand...

I never said sexual orientation can't change, I said we can't make the conscious choice to change it. It's fluid, very much so in puberty. But at the same time, many straight people never exhibit any gay tendencies or behaviour. That at the least implies some aspects of sexual orientation are inborn.

But you can't wake up one day and say "I don't want to be gay anymore, I'll go see a Therapist!!"

And your source requires a subscription to read, which leads me to believe that you yourself haven't even read it and are using it as a source based on it's title alone. Very unwise.

There's a quite obvious abstract on the page of the article, which states the main facts and purpose of the paper. It lists what the experiment did, and results that were gained. That qualifies it as a source.

I have to agree with most posters that sexuality can change, due to varying factors. But some of it seems likely to be genetic. There's been evidence it can change, and evidence that it sometimes will not in the thread, and it seems to form the idea that it is not completely set at birth, but is to some degree.

 

[Peter Quill]

I'm ****ing adding my opinion, not trying to look smart. Try to accept what I say, instead of turning it into some conspiracy to inflate my ego. I was just saying that you can't make or stop anyone in having a parade, and that it shouldn't need to be taken as offensive if somebody wants to express their opinion. I like to be tolerant of the beliefs of others.

I

I never once said that you were wrong. What I said is that it wasn't really necessary (and I highly suggest that you should re-read your post. It most certainly reads as a holier-than-thou LOL WELL DEBATE OVER WE CAN PARADE WHAT WE WANT SINCE FREE SPEECH). It wasn't anything that you said was problematic, rather the idea that propels something like a "straight pride parade" is problematic in itself.

 

[Sadib]

I never said sexual orientation can't change, I said we can't make the conscious choice to change it. It's fluid, very much so in puberty. But at the same time, many straight people never exhibit any gay tendencies or behaviour. That at the least implies some aspects of sexual orientation are inborn.

No one said that sexuality can't be changed. mattj is just straw manning you. He's basically grasping at straws at this point.

 

[CSolarstorm]

Sexuality does change. That's good as confirmed. The question now is whether or not people can manipulate it so that it changes at will.

 

[mattj]

Can someone, anyone, including you Eterna, provide a credible source claiming that choice or environment cannot change sexual orientation? I've provided more than a few claiming it can. Waiting on you guys. If you have such a source that is.

[edit]

And lol @ "U DIDN'T EVEN READ YUR OWN SOURCE"

I guess c/p'ing and googling the title was too hard or something.

[edit 2]

Just for kicks, here's a pretty new study claiming that genes have little to do with initial sexual orientation. It claims that environmental factors trump all when it comes to initial sexual orientation.

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/whitehead_twinjhs.pdf

[edit 3]

Here. For your ease, I'll just re-lay all my cards out on the table and we'll compare cards. Shall we?

http://www.exgaystudy.org/
Some homosexuals who are not comfortable with their sexual orientation have successfully altered their sexual orientation in a positive, healthy, pleasing way.

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/whitehead_twinjhs.pdf
Environment plays the largest role in initial sexual orientation, with genetics playing only the most minor of roles.

http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-012-9915-9
Learning and conditioning (societal, personal, etc) play a large role in sexual orientation.

I'll add more in a moment.

 

[Skydra]

Can someone, anyone, including you Eterna, provide a credible source claiming that choice or environment cannot change sexual orientation? I've provided more than a few claiming it can. Waiting on you guys. If you have such a source that is.

[edit]

And lol @ "U DIDN'T EVEN READ YUR OWN SOURCE"

I guess c/p'ing and googling the title was too hard or something.

[edit 2]

Just for kicks, here's a pretty new study claiming that genes have little to do with initial sexual orientation. It claims that environmental factors trump all when it comes to initial sexual orientation.

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/whitehead_twinjhs.pdf

[edit 3]

Here. For your ease, I'll just re-lay all my cards out on the table and we'll compare cards. Shall we?

http://www.exgaystudy.org/
Some homosexuals who are not comfortable with their sexual orientation have successfully altered their sexual orientation in a positive, healthy, pleasing way.

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/whitehead_twinjhs.pdf
Environment plays the largest role in initial sexual orientation, with genetics playing only the most minor of roles.

http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-012-9915-9
Learning and conditioning (societal, personal, etc) play a large role in sexual orientation.

I'll add more in a moment.

I have to agree with you on most parts, except the forced change in identity.

I think you brought up this study before, anyway... the keyword here is that it was purposeful. All the studied individuals were members of Christian groups, thus having religious motivation to change their sexuality due to what is described by their religion. There is not enough variation in test subjects due to this; there was apparently nobody who didn't want or didn't care about changing their sexuality. It was also "religiously mediated," apparently. This is an inherent flaw in the experiment. I understand that getting test subjects from don't want to or don't care groups would be difficult due to their acceptance of their sexuality, but that doesn't change that there is a lack of information in that case.

If you want something to happen, the chance of perceiving it of happening is increased. We're all fairly aware of that, I think. Putting that into the question of "what is your sexuality?", if you want to be a certain sexuality, you will be more likely to perceive yourself as that sexuality.

I'm more trying to say "we don't know" rather than "you're wrong", since we don't have the data on this point. However, I believe it leans more to the side of a changing sexuality due to environment, not intent.

I

I never once said that you were wrong. What I said is that it wasn't really necessary (and I highly suggest that you should re-read your post. It most certainly reads as a holier-than-thou LOL WELL DEBATE OVER WE CAN PARADE WHAT WE WANT SINCE FREE SPEECH). It wasn't anything that you said was problematic, rather the idea that propels something like a "straight pride parade" is problematic in itself.

I realize I worded my post poorly and had a bit different intent than came across.

 

[mattj]

I'm more trying to say "we don't know" rather than "you're wrong", since we don't have the data on this point. However, I believe it leans more to the side of a changing sexuality due to environment, not intent.

I don't mind what you believe so long as you recognize that it's not based on evidence.

 

[Sadib]

Can someone, anyone, including you Eterna, provide a credible source claiming that choice or environment cannot change sexual orientation? I've provided more than a few claiming it can. Waiting on you guys. If you have such a source that is.

I'm sorry mattj, but we don't debate by saying, "I dare anyone to prove my claims false. If you can't, it means that my claims are true. Appeal to ignorance FTW!"

 

[Skydra]

I don't mind what you believe so long as you recognize that it's not based on evidence.

Did you consider what I wrote or just go down to my claim of not being sure of that point.

What isn't based on evidence is the claim that you can purposely change your sexuality, because there is a lack of evidence. We have this one study of yours that includes only people affiliated with religious groups in a religiously mediated program: that is a very limited data set. To truly test this theory of a purposeful change, we'd need people of varying beliefs and varying intent to change their sexuality. If you limit the experiment as that one was, it cannot prove anything.

Note that I am not saying that you are right or wrong, just presenting the fact that we do not have the evidence to prove either.

 

[Eterna]

Can someone, anyone, including you Eterna, provide a credible source claiming that choice or environment cannot change sexual orientation? I've provided more than a few claiming it can. Waiting on you guys. If you have such a source that is.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071107170741.htm

They found that the posterior part of the corpus callosum is larger in homosexual than heterosexual men.
The size of the corpus callosum is largely inherited suggesting a genetic factor in sexual orientation, said Witelson "Our results do not mean that heredity is destiny but they do indicate that environment is not the only player in the field," she said.

http://lakeweedatarrowhead.net/23scient.htm

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_changing.html

I offered several (unconvincing) reasons why it was reasonable to assume that the subject's reports of change were credible and not self-deception or outright lying. But the simple fact is that there was no way to determine if the subject's accounts of change were valid.

http://www.counseling.org/pressroom/newsreleases.aspx?AGuid=b68aba97-2f08-40c2-a400-0630765f72f4

We found that the majority of studies on this topic have been expository in nature. We found no scientific evidence published in psychological peer-reviewed journals that conversion therapy is effective in changing an individual's sexual orientation from same-sex attractions to opposite-sex attractions. Further, we did not find any longitudinal studies conducted to follow the outcomes for those individuals who have engaged in this type of treatment. We did conclude that research published in peer-reviewed counseling journals indicates that conversion therapies may harm clients

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...5/outlook-not-looking-good-conversion-therapy

Earlier this month psychiatrist Dr. Robert Spitzer renounced his study suggesting that therapy to change sexual orientation works with some individuals who are “highly motivated.” He went on to apologize to the gay community and anyone who “wasted time and energy undergoing some form of reparative therapy.”

I have waaay more MattJ, I can go on.

 

[Kaiserin]

@Kaiserin: I really mean this with all due respect, but that doesn't make any sense. If a person's environment has any affect whatsoever on a person's sexuality, then changing their environment absolutely can change their sexuality. What reason could you give as to why environment would influence a person at one point but cannot at another? I realize that what people learn about themselves do tend to stick, but why can't people learn new things? I see people do this all the time.

Because that's not how psychology works, or the human mind itself; what you learn growing up stays with you for damn near forever, because of how you're geared to adapt when you're young. It roots itself deeply, like learning languages as a kid versus learning them as an adult. Also, what Eterna said about environment only being a part of the equation that influences the final outcome.

Honestly, I'm not worried about the capacity of sexuality to change, because it's undeniably fluid. I just really want to know why we need to change gay people straight so badly, for a reason that isn't "well, they want to turn straight!" Because they wouldn't want to turn straight, wouldn't have to turn straight, if they didn't live in a society that told them it's not okay to be anything but straight and consequently ostracized and outcasted them for it. That, I think, is the problem more than whether they should change or want to change. I bet you anything there'd be a lot less need for an ex-gay study if there was no gigantic social reason for them to feel it necessary in the first place.

 

[Solstyce]

If sexual orientation was completely environmental then sure why not. It's not though. And by "Key" aspect I don't mean major aspect. I don't think ones environment can actively change ones sexual orientation, I think ones environment can simply nurture it.

Even then though, being Gay myself, I really couldn't pin point how my environment could have affected my sexual orientation. I didn't have Daddy issues, I'm not into feminine things I was never a mommies boy. It's anecdotal evidence, but I feel as thought my environment played no part in my sexual orientation.

Same. AND, I grew up in a very religious household. But here I am.

Funny, I don't feel so accepted being a straight white adult male.

Funny, I'm guessing you've never had friends tell you that your going to hell for being straight.

I grew up in a conservative house with a lot of induced fear involving hellfire and demons and the like...am I a fear-mongerring nut?

No. And I would never say sexuality can be placed someone by poor parenting, or by things of that nature. I think it's genetic, hormonal...it isn't a mental thing, because sexuality, the part of you that's attracted to others...that can't change. It can be suppressed, or 'controlled'..but I don't that it really works long-term.

^This.

 

[mattj]

I'm sorry mattj, but we don't debate by saying, "I dare anyone to prove my claims false. If you can't, it means that my claims are true. Appeal to ignorance FTW!"

I agree. Who's doing that?

Can someone, anyone, including you Eterna, provide a credible source claiming that choice or environment cannot change sexual orientation? I've provided more than a few claiming it can. Waiting on you guys. If you have such a source that is.

They found that the posterior part of the corpus callosum is larger in homosexual than heterosexual men.
The size of the corpus callosum is largely inherited suggesting a genetic factor in sexual orientation, said Witelson "Our results do not mean that heredity is destiny but they do indicate that environment is not the only player in the field," she said.

I asked for a single source claiming that choice or environment cannot change sexual orientation. You provided a source that claims environment does play a role in sexual orientation, an outdated overview of repairative therapy studies (they were written before the "ex-gay study" that I provided), and Spitzer denouncing his own study, which I never referenced.

Can you provide a source to back up your claim that environment and choice cannot alter sexual orientation, or can't you?

 

[Eterna]

I agree. Who's doing that?I asked for a single source claiming that choice or environment cannot change sexual orientation. You provided a source that claims environment does play a role in sexual orientation, an outdated overview of repairative therapy studies (they were written before the "ex-gay study" that I provided), and Spitzer denouncing his own study, which I never referenced.

Can you provide a source to back up your claim that environment and choice cannot alter sexual orientation, or can't you?

You're purposely being obtuse MattJ, if you're looking for outright confirmation that nobody can force themselves to change their sexuality then you won't get it because it doesn't exist. But at the same time, you'll never be able to prove that simply by choice one can change their orientation, you have yet to link anything that confirms this as fact; despite how many times you claim otherwise.

The best I can do is show you studies and quotes from people who have tried conversion therapy and observed it's failures, the reality is the majority of professionals regard conversion therapy as an ineffective and damaging practice, that should tell you more than enough that the studies and peer reviewed journals your are linking are not 100% fact.

But if you're going to keep singing "la la la la" whenever I present you with contradictory evidence then we're pretty much done here aren't we?