Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

[SwiftSoul]

We may have understood the question, but that doesn't mean for a second we weren't offended. I can only speak for myself, of course, but I have a hard time imagining any gay person not taking offense to that. Moogles more than hit it on the head, really. It sounded like yet another person attempting to dictate what gays can and cannot do, a tune which, sadly, we have heard all too much.

Of course, you likely just write off whatever I say, anyway, which is fine, I suppose. I can't say I think you're better off for it, though.

 

[Jb]

In that case I apologize to anyone that was offended.

 

[Kaiserin]

Furthermore, I personally seen no need to change what I say so it doesn't come off so rude or atleast in this situation. I mean up untill D_L's post there were already 4-5 people who completely answered my queston and while everyone is different, those 5 people had no trouble understanding what the question was, hell you even understood what I said. I failed to see the need to reword my question after it has already been answered. Doing so would've only triggered as i'm sure you've seen, another 5 page debate on whatever topic people brought in relation to it thus turning this topic to shit.

Either way like I said on the first page, i'm not trying to become a regular member in this debate so...

TL;DR version: Sorry if the question came off as rude, I didn't mean anything rude by dismissing your question D_L. What Moogles said in their post is basically what I meant.

For future reference, people you speak to are not psychic, particularly on the internet where you can't hear tone of voice to assist with context. You may mean one thing, but if you can't express it in a way that won't cause others to take it a different way, no disclaimer of "I'm not trying to be rude" will matter. In fact, it may even make you look worse depending on what statements/questions it's accompanied by. Intent rarely translates to things that come out of your mouth, or words that get typed into a text box. Especially the latter.

It's not wrong to ask questions about things you genuinely don't understand, because otherwise you won't learn about it. But you always have to consider how the other side might react to it, particularly in questions about touchy topics.

If multiple people get offended by something you say, all for the same reason, then generally, the right response is not to get defensive and say "well I didn't mean it that way, geez, don't get so offended!". The right response is to ask why, if you think the other party will be willing to tell you in a civil way, and then listen to them. You don't need to reword your question, you just need to understand that yes, it did sound judgmental to many people, even if that wasn't your intent.

Communication is always a two-way street; not only does the person you're speaking to have to listen open-mindedly, but the person doing the talking has to be clear, concise, diplomatic, and willing to hear what others have to say in response, as well as accept the responsibility for anything they may say that doesn't go over as well as they'd hoped.

 

[CSolarstorm]

I think the discussion about how jb's statement came off as offensive is a bit of a dead horse now. It was an honest question, just a sensitive matter.

 

[MastersOfMonsters]

For me, i don't care if someone's Gay or not. It's such a stupid thing to even care about. A guy can love another guy. That doesn't affect anything/anyone whatsoever~
While i understand that lots of guys finds homosexuallity gross by itself, that's no reason to hate gays themselves.

Also, if i understand correctly, it seems like homosexuals are slowly being more and more accepted, which is great~ ^^

PS: hmm, sorry for bad 'all-around' comment...

 

[Grei]

I think we wore out Tisub. I'm doubt I'm the person to shed light on this, but I'll try. It sounds like he actually is bi or gay. Have you seen the heterosexual side of him, even? If not, whiile he likes you, maybe he just wants the status that comes with claiming heterosexuality, so he's not willing to admit it's an actual gay relationship. Being jealous would entail he wants to be exclusive, but he doesn't want to look at himself as gay.

Well, I'm inclined to think its something else than that, only because he's extremely comfortable with himself and would have no problems coming out if he felt he was gay or bi.

Even though your friend enjoys having sex with you, you still think he's straight?

If your friend enjoys having sex with you, then how'd you come to the conclusion that he's straight?

It's a lot more complicated than "he likes having sex with men therefore he's gay." Because he likes me, not men. At least, that's what he's told me. And besides, I knew him as a heterosexual long before he began to behave in this way. He was initially grossed out by this kind of stuff, and so I'm not sure if he's simply more comfortable with me now, or if he's awakened to his sexuality or something.

Well, I think that sexuality is both a spectrum, and, to a degree, fluid. He may well be straight, except when it comes to you. It's happened before. And maybe it's just you, and will always be just you. Or, maybe, this is a road of self-discovery that will show him what pansexuality or bisexuality are all about. Who can really say?
Or, he could be a possessive creep who doesn't want anyone else touching what he sees as his casual sex. Or anywhere in between.

That's what I'm thinking. Well, maybe not the last one, but the rest of it, yeah. I truly think he's heterosexual, because he still shows an interest in females and doesn't really get into males in general.

The one thing I just don't get is why people inherently think that homosexual relationships are several times more sexual than a heterosexual relationships. It's like the first thing they think about when someone mentions homosexuality is two guys pounding each other or two girls going at it.

As far as I'm concerned its as normal as any other relationship. Why the oversexualization of it?

Studies have shown that gay men are much more sexually energetic than any other combination of sexuality and gender.

 

[Kaiserin]

It's a lot more complicated than "he likes having sex with men therefore he's gay." Because he likes me, not men. At least, that's what he's told me. And besides, I knew him as a heterosexual long before he began to behave in this way. He was initially grossed out by this kind of stuff, and so I'm not sure if he's simply more comfortable with me now, or if he's awakened to his sexuality or something.

I dunno if you mentioned this earlier, but... how old is he? Not that it really matters, but the younger he is, the more likely that yes, there's still a part of his sexuality that remains undiscovered. Not only is sexuality a spectrum that rarely finds itself limited to "only straight" or "only gay", but it's also not terribly fluid most of the time, either. I don't think it's uncommon at all for even people well past their teens to suddenly find themselves having an unwarranted change of heart about their attractions, which might have been strictly on one end of the scale before, but have been sliding a bit towards the middle in later years.

I know there are some communities that label people with specific sexualities that entail them only being sexually attracted to people they already know well... or something. It doesn't really make much sense to me, though.

That's what I'm thinking. Well, maybe not the last one, but the rest of it, yeah. I truly think he's heterosexual, because he still shows an interest in females and doesn't really get into males in general.

It's possible he's close to the lower end of the Kinsey scale (the heterosexual end), but found himself attracted to you for whatever reason. He doesn't have to be completely homosexual to be attracted to men, too, since bisexual doesn't always entail being equally open to either gender. A lot of bisexuals I'm familiar with usually lean one way or the other concerning which gender they're more inclined towards.

Studies have shown that gay men are much more sexually energetic than any other combination of sexuality and gender.

That may be true, but still, there's probably exceptions to the rule all the same. It still boils down to generalization and stereotyping, even if that stereotyping actually has a grain (or perhaps a large chunk) of truth to it.

 

[Grei]

I dunno if you mentioned this earlier, but... how old is he? Not that it really matters, but the younger he is, the more likely that yes, there's still a part of his sexuality that remains undiscovered. Not only is sexuality a spectrum that rarely finds itself limited to "only straight" or "only gay", but it's also not terribly fluid most of the time, either. I don't think it's uncommon at all for even people well past their teens to suddenly find themselves having an unwarranted change of heart about their attractions, which might have been strictly on one end of the scale before, but have been sliding a bit towards the middle in later years.

He's 18.

The thing I question about the fluidity of sexuality is the fact that I'm gay, and I would never date a woman. I have never really been attracted to a woman, unless you count the times where I pretended I was heterosexual prior to coming out. Tons of other homosexuals seem to feel this way, too. Is this fluidity in sexuality applicable only to heterosexuals? Is the fluidity negatively correlated with one's sexual energy--where those who are more sexually charged are less likely to stray from their labeled sexuality? That's the only logical explanation I can find for why homosexuals would never have sex with the opposite gender.

I know there are some communities that label people with specific sexualities that entail them only being sexually attracted to people they already know well... or something. It doesn't really make much sense to me, though.

I don't know if that's it. Although that's interesting, I've never heard of it.

It's possible he's close to the lower end of the Kinsey scale (the heterosexual end), but found himself attracted to you for whatever reason. He doesn't have to be completely homosexual to be attracted to men, too, since bisexual doesn't always entail being equally open to either gender. A lot of bisexuals I'm familiar with usually lean one way or the other concerning which gender they're more inclined towards.

That would make sense, I think.

This is directed at anyone:
Is there any possibility that my friend has simply grown attached to the sexual relationship we have, and it's being confused or combined with the friend love he has for me? That's the conclusion I keep coming back to, since his attraction to me seemed to grow over a long period of time.

That may be true, but still, there's probably exceptions to the rule all the same. It still boils down to generalization and stereotyping, even if that stereotyping actually has a grain (or perhaps a large chunk) of truth to it.

Well, I wasn't trying to say all gay men are *****s or something, I was just stating what studies show.

 

[Sadib]

Is there any possibility that my friend has simply grown attached to the sexual relationship we have, and it's being confused or combined with the friend love he has for me? That's the conclusion I keep coming back to, since his attraction to me seemed to grow over a long period of time.

I still don't understand how you would think he was straight even though he offered to have sex with you.

 

[Ioneos]

I still don't understand how you would think he was straight even though he offered to have sex with you.

Some people are not sexually attracted to men, yet will still have sex with them. It's kind of like not wanting to eat a certain kind of food, yet when you're really hungry, you still eat it.

I'm not the best at explaining this, am I?

 

[Sadib]

Some people are not sexually attracted to men, yet will still have sex with them. It's kind of like not wanting to eat a certain kind of food, yet when you're really hungry, you still eat it.

I'm not the best at explaining this, am I?

You're right. You're not good at explaining this. That's like saying someone can be hungry enough to eat a chair.

 

[Kaiserin]

He's 18.

The thing I question about the fluidity of sexuality is the fact that I'm gay, and I would never date a woman. I have never really been attracted to a woman, unless you count the times where I pretended I was heterosexual prior to coming out. Tons of other homosexuals seem to feel this way, too. Is this fluidity in sexuality applicable only to heterosexuals? Is the fluidity negatively correlated with one's sexual energy--where those who are more sexually charged are less likely to stray from their labeled sexuality? That's the only logical explanation I can find for why homosexuals would never have sex with the opposite gender.

Sexuality can be different for everybody, though. I probably should have mentioned that a certain margin of leaning the other way in very specific cases with some people is not the rule, and there are people who are comfortable in being 100% heterosexual or 100% homosexual. I think it applies to those who identify as gay just as much as those who identify as straight, though -- just as there are a number of straight people who have some sort of undiscovered interest in their own gender to some extent, there are gay people who are probably the same way with certain members of the opposite gender. Not necessarily attracted to the gender itself, but attracted to certain individuals belonging to it.

This is directed at anyone:
Is there any possibility that my friend has simply grown attached to the sexual relationship we have, and it's being confused or combined with the friend love he has for me? That's the conclusion I keep coming back to, since his attraction to me seemed to grow over a long period of time.

Absolutely, yes. No one can really say for sure except him, but it's possible he's confusing a friends-with-benefits relationship for something it isn't, or trying to stretch it into something a bit bigger. Of course, it's also possible he's completely right about it, too, and that he is genuinely attracted to you, hence justifying those feelings. It could go either way, I think, but that's something only he can confirm for himself, as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's equally likely to be either, because just as often as good friends go their separate ways or decide to hook up with different people, they may also fall for each other, because I've always found that love grows rather than just happens. And when you already have a good foundation for something like that in the form of a strong friendship, it's all the more likely to come about. But it's very, very situational, since... well, love's hardly ever a rational thing.

 

[Hox]

I still don't understand how you would think he was straight even though he offered to have sex with you.

By your logic federal prison turns people gay

 

[Sadib]

By your logic federal prison turns people gay

That actually makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying we should lock up gay people in prison or anything like that though. Why are so many prisoners gay?

 

[the jman]

Whilst I believe that it's okay to be gay, a luxury in america, I believe it's a choice.

I state my argument not on the bases of whether homosexuality is right or wrong, but wether someones born with it. I dont believe your "born gay" but that you develope your choice in your lifetime, more specificly, in your childhood. Choosing sexuality is like choosing a religion, you want to make the choice that gives you the most happiness. No one is "born catholic" except by birthright, but your not inclined to practice it... just like your sexuality. There is no "gay gene", if there was, homosexuality would have been widely accepted over the ages and there would be less humans in the race.

 

[Sadib]

Whilst I believe that it's okay to be gay, a luxury in america, I believe it's a choice.

I state my argument not on the bases of whether homosexuality is right or wrong, but wether someones born with it. I dont believe your "born gay" but that you develope your choice in your lifetime, more specificly, in your childhood. Choosing sexuality is like choosing a religion, you want to make the choice that gives you the most happiness. No one is "born catholic" except by birthright, but your not inclined to practice it... just like your sexuality. There is no "gay gene", if there was, homosexuality would have been widely accepted over the ages and there would be less humans in the race.

There are lots of gay people who posted in this debate that would tell you that sexuality is not a choice. It's not like religion, it's more like your race or if you lost your arm some time in your life. You can't change it.

 

[J.T.]

I dont believe your "born gay" but that you develope your choice in your lifetime, more specificly, in your childhood. Choosing sexuality is like choosing a religion, you want to make the choice that gives you the most happiness.

... So you choose the option that gives you the "most happiness"? If that best option for you is being gay, then newsflash: You're gay before you even tried to make the choice.

There is no "gay gene", if there was, homosexuality would have been widely accepted over the ages and there would be less humans in the race.

You vastly underestimate human bigotry. Being left-handed used to be considered of the devil. Does that make left-handedness a choice?

 

[WizardTrubbish]

Whilst I believe that it's okay to be gay, a luxury in america, I believe it's a choice.

I state my argument not on the bases of whether homosexuality is right or wrong, but wether someones born with it. I dont believe your "born gay" but that you develope your choice in your lifetime, more specificly, in your childhood. Choosing sexuality is like choosing a religion, you want to make the choice that gives you the most happiness. No one is "born catholic" except by birthright, but your not inclined to practice it... just like your sexuality. There is no "gay gene", if there was, homosexuality would have been widely accepted over the ages and there would be less humans in the race.

Right, because being discriminated against fills people with joy.

 

[Kaiserin]

Whilst I believe that it's okay to be gay, a luxury in america, I believe it's a choice.

Nope, nope, and more nope.

There's no "believe" about it. How many people who identify as homosexual do you think would switch to being straight in a heartbeat to escape the discrimination, if it really was a choice?

It's only a luxury in some countries because they don't put anyone accused of being gay to death or lock them up in prison anymore. Just because a handful of countries and a few US states have made civil unions or gay marriage legal doesn't mean they've gotten rid of the ingrained hate for it in the population.

I dont believe your "born gay" but that you develope your choice in your lifetime, more specificly, in your childhood. Choosing sexuality is like choosing a religion, you want to make the choice that gives you the most happiness. No one is "born catholic" except by birthright, but your not inclined to practice it... just like your sexuality.

Oh, hell no. Those two things are like apples and oranges, child.

Many kids are raised with the influence of any given religion in their life, and it's not uncommon that they wind up not really buying it later in life and just cast it off for whatever they'd rather believe. However, even if you're raised with religion, it is, strictly speaking, not a subconscious part of you as a person.

But it is when you have a certain sexual identity. Let's turn the tables for a moment and assume that, for whatever reason, it's not the homosexuals that are oppressed, but the heterosexuals. Don't go into justifying the why of this hypothetical situation, just assume. You're straight, and you like the opposite gender. However, due to the public stigma against it, you have to be extremely careful who you talk to and what you say, and even then, there's no guarantee someone won't backstab you, out you as the lesser-accepted sexual preference, and light a match in a field of brush so as to start a wildfire. And when that wildfire escalates enough, you run the risk of getting assaulted or killed, while the individual(s) who were responsible for it make the excuse of "oh, he tried to come onto me, but it skeeved me out because I don't swing that way".

But no matter how hard you try, no matter how much your force yourself to try and date people of the gender you're not attracted to, no matter how much you try to push yourself to marry one and devote yourself to that person in a way that would be better suited for someone you actually loved... you can't do it. It just doesn't happen, no matter how much you wish it would.

Now, flip the tables back the way they are now.

That's homosexuality as it is in today's society in a nutshell. That's why all the people with straight privilege who spout off all this stupid **** about "homosexuality is a choice, they could just date people of the other gender and there'd be no problem!" are wrong, full stop. All you have to do to see why is to put yourself in their shoes; turning a gay person straight is about as easy as turning a straight person gay.

There is no "gay gene", if there was, homosexuality would have been widely accepted over the ages and there would be less humans in the race

While I'm not convinced genes have anything to do with it, you should've stopped after "there is no gay gene" there. Because we all know society always accepts the newest scientific ideas automatically, right? I mean, there was totally no backlash when it started getting more widely accepted that the earth was round, and then when it was proven not to be the center of the universe! And evolution is a completely accepted theory for life on Earth today!

...Sorry, but I don't think having less people on the planet is a bad thing, personally. Not getting rid of the ones we have, but preventing the births of those who won't have an especially great life. There's also the fact that homosexual couples have the option of adoption or surrogacy, and with that first one, it's helping find homes for kids who otherwise would not have one at all. I fail to see how less unwanted kids in orphanages is a problem, that said.

 

[Arachnae]

Because of the fact that I am new to these forums, I'd like to start by saying Hi, and telling you all of my opinion, which I'll keep short and sweet.

I feel as though "People can't choose to be gay" is a generalization, not a massive one, but just because the majority of people feel that way, it does not mean everyone does, and if someone came along now and said "I chose to be gay" then you can't very well tell them they are telling a lie. You have no choice but to accept that this person chose to be a homosexual, if you don't then you are responding in the same way people who said "Gay doesn't exist" responded.

Now, onto my main beliefs; Be it man, woman or transgender, we are all human. sitting behind your computer screens, we all look the same, the only thing you know of us is our sex, and a little bit about what we like. So, being that we are all human, we all deserve the same treatment. The way I look at it, we are all just beings, however we, or the people around us identify us, we are simply beings. and each being can interact with all other beings, sex only has to be a physical thing, so don't try to suppress who someone really is.

to put it bluntly, I do not believe in gender (not sex GENDER) barriers, I believe any adult, able to give consent, should be able to be with, including on marriage, another adult who is able to give consent. Its sad that people don't just forget about all these presumptions, and prejudices, they are highly primitive. To be frank, it is none of our business if an ''X'' wants to be with an ''X.''

I truly don't understand the fixation humans have with controlling the lives of other humans, we are all on the same level as animals, regardless of how we try to separate ourselves from them, because the majority of humans want control and status, and guess what? So do the animals. Just because we go a different way about obtaining it, and attempt to justify this dominance with a praising label, does not make it any different from the instinct a lion has to be the alpha-male.

I guess that last paragraph began to get a little off topic, and it wasn't as short and sweet as I had planned, but I still feel I had to put it all out there

Thanks =3