Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

[Sadib]

In that sense, heterosexuality is the same as pedophilia.

Except that being heterosexual makes sense due to the drive to reproduce. Children aren't able to reproduce... yet. So heterosexual pedophilia might be more logical than homosexuality.

 

[Eterna]

Thats its stupid to think that its impossible to change ur sexuallity and i dont get why people are so dead set on it. Like i said i have, and i know countless other people who have and they helped me to do it.

you are condemning people who have been in the same cicumstances but have been dealt a losing hand.

Link us a scientific article that states "countless" people have changed their orientation.

Anecdotal evidence in no way proves your point here.

 

[Manna]

Except that being heterosexual makes sense due to the drive to reproduce. Children aren't able to reproduce... yet. So heterosexual pedophilia might be more logical than homosexuality.

Ehhhh....I'm not sure if I would use the words you used, but I see your point. Fair enough.

 

[Useless]

i didnt say i did what i wanted as i wanted it, it took time and effort.

and please use the quote button so we know who you're talking to.

Then what you consider changing isn't changing your sexuality, that's re-conditioning - and that by and large is an extremely controversial form of psychotherapy highly frowned upon by the psychological community, furthermore, it causes signifacntly more psychological problems than it solves.

If this what you've been prescribed and have undergone successfully, then consider yourself a psychological and emotional anomoly on par with a miracle, that form of treatment fails miserably in almost every case I'm aware of.

In fact, I recently read an article in which people are sueing a religous organization that claimed they could make homosexuals straight, and their methods of treatment were nothing short of disgusting.

Lastly, you know I was talking to you, you didn't need quotes to figure that out.

And just as an FYI, here's the link to the aforementioned article just so you're aware of how ridiculous and completely unethical this form of treatment is.

 

[Steampunk]

There is a difference between orientations and psychiatric disorders, and homosexuality is the former and pedophilia is the latter. They are both attractions, but that does not mean that you can simply say "If it's an attraction, it's exactly like homosexuality because of how I group orientations contrary to what most people, if not everyone, who have actual education (bachelor minor to Ph.D major) on psychology, group (or perhaps seperate) attractions and orientations.".


Do not accuse published works of typos in order to get me to believe your viewpoint on this issue, or for that matter, anyone on any issue. They'll get you nowhere.

u dont what to know what i thought when read the first part, and i know that its true but i would get severely harassed fot satating it.

as fot the last line, i was just saying that, my dictionary didnt add the part about it being human, which leads me to believe, that they added it later to cheat their way out of situations like this.

Except that being heterosexual makes sense due to the drive to reproduce. Children aren't able to reproduce... yet. So heterosexual pedophilia might be more logical than homosexuality.

not that i condone with either but it i agree.

Link us a scientific article that states "countless" people have changed their orientation.

Anecdotal evidence in no way proves your point here.

and it in no way disproves it either.
ive been busy lately so ill take a more detailed look later, but i googled it, and in the first 2 articles went basically like this:
1) you shouldnt have to change so why would u try to?
2) there is no way to tell if it worked or not, cuz the subject could easily be lying.

Then what you consider changing isn't changing your sexuality, that's re-conditioning - and that by and large is an extremely controversial form of psychotherapy highly frowned upon by the psychological community, furthermore, it causes signifacntly more psychological problems than it solves.

If this what you've been prescribed and have undergone successfully, then consider yourself a psychological and emotional anomoly on par with a miracle, that form of treatment fails miserably in almost every case I'm aware of.

In fact, I recently read an article in which people are sueing a religous organization that claimed they could make homosexuals straight, and their methods of treatment were nothing short of disgusting.

Lastly, you know I was talking to you, you didn't need quotes to figure that out.

And just as an FYI, here's the link to the aforementioned article just so you're aware of how ridiculous and completely unethical this form of treatment is.

bold:well whatever i did was not like a big program, i just tried and enough and got advice from others that have done it. and i find it interesting that u call it a miracle, when one would thing that you would be dissaproveing.

italics: i agree at that being completely unethical, and i would never put myself or anyone else through that. i simply did a few psycologic exersises, and doing it repetetively and over time it had the desired effect.

underlined: i knew that but its just a pet peeve and it makes the page look neater.

 

[Useless]

bold:well whatever i did was not like a big program, i just tried and enough and got advice from others that have done it. and i find it interesting that u call it a miracle, when one would thing that you would be dissaproveing.

italics: i agree at that being completely unethical, and i would never put myself or anyone else through that. i simply did a few psycologic exersises, and doing it repetetively and over time it had the desired effect.

underlined: i knew that but its just a pet peeve and it makes the page look neater.

The fact that you call your treatment "whatever I did" tells me all that I need to know. You can't even give your own testimony enough credit to describe what you put yourself through in order to try and change a part of you that shouldn't be changed in the first place.

Secondly, whether it was a big program or not is irrelevant, any person and/or group claiming that they could help another individual change their sexual orientation are twisted egotistical liars and socially depricating fools, and I can guarantee they don't have the qualifications or credentials to even try, and if they did and public got wind of it, they would lose everything they work so hard to achieve instantly, and any institution they were to aspire to work for in the future would sooner higher a child than run the risk of being associated with such a person -- and quite frankly, the fact that you've surrounded yourself with these kind of people fills me with a sadness you could never understand.

And the reason I call it a miracle is because I must observe your testimony on an individual basis, you are such a small statistic when compared to the norm that you are quite literally a miracle -- that is if you legitimately believe you no longer have any thoughts or impuleses towards the same sex, which I don't believe you do no matter what you say. period. Furthermore, it boggles my mind that you can agree that what you see in that article as unethical and you "would never put yourself or anyone else through that" when in fact you already have, only to a lesser extent, and continue to advocate it by admittedly testifying yourself as a model and a success story.

And if the tone in my response wasn't explicit enough for you, then let me make it perfectly clear -- there aren't enough words in the dictionary to describe how much I disapprove of this, I find it horrifically repulsive on so many levels.

 

[Steampunk]

The fact that you call your treatment "whatever I did" tells me all that I need to know. You can't even give your own testimony enough credit to describe what you put yourself through in order to try and change a part of you that shouldn't be changed in the first place.

Secondly, whether it was a big program or not is irrelevant, any person and/or group claiming that they could help another individual change their sexual orientation are twisted egotistical liars and socially depricating fools, and I can guarantee they don't have the qualifications or credentials to even try, and if they did and public got wind of it, they would lose everything they work so hard to achieve instantly, and any institution they were to aspire to work for in the future would sooner higher a child than run the risk of being associated with such a person -- and quite frankly, the fact that you've surrounded yourself with these kind of people fills me with a sadness you could never understand.

And the reason I call it a miracle is because I must observe your testimony on an individual basis, you are such a small statistic when compared to the norm that you are quite literally a miracle -- that is if you legitimately believe you no longer have any thoughts or impuleses towards the same sex, which I don't believe you do no matter what you say. period. Furthermore, it boggles my mind that you can agree that what you see in that article as unethical and you "would never put yourself or anyone else through that" when in fact you already have, only to a lesser extent, and continue to advocate it by admittedly testifying yourself as a model and a success story.

And if the tone in my response wasn't explicit enough for you, then let me make it perfectly clear -- there aren't enough words in the dictionary to describe how much I disapprove of this, I find it horrifically repulsive on so many levels.

1st bold: i didnt feel like explaining it for a third time and i honestly didnt know what it was classified as so that why i just said "what i did". if u want to know then go back on this thread and you'll find it.

underlined: hokay, i think i said this before, but it was just a few personal friends who had gone throught the same thing and succeded, i didnt pay a cent nor did they ask me to do anything like what they did, all of it happened in my head when the urges appeared. They would just ask me how it was going and give me advice on how to help. and no they didnt have any credentials, but thats because one doesnt exist for this sort of thing, at least not a credible one.

italics: refer to what i said for the underlined. And that kind of tratment has no excuse even to supposedly do something as drastic as this.

2nd bold: well okay then. Thats your opinion and i respect it. but let me say that it does nothing to help boost your credebility.

 

[gamer_legend]

Here's my view of Homosexuality. You don't have to embrace it but you might aswell accept it. The world is evolving and being homosexual isn't any more a choice than being religious. You can't choose to whether or not you want to be gay but what you can choose to be is a better person and in the end those are the only people who count.

 

[Useless]

1st bold: i didnt feel like explaining it for a third time and i honestly didnt know what it was classified as so that why i just said "what i did". if u want to know then go back on this thread and you'll find it.

underlined: hokay, i think i said this before, but it was just a few personal friends who had gone throught the same thing and succeded, i didnt pay a cent nor did they ask me to do anything like what they did, all of it happened in my head when the urges appeared. They would just ask me how it was going and give me advice on how to help. and no they didnt have any credentials, but thats because one doesnt exist for this sort of thing, at least not a credible one.

italics: refer to what i said for the underlined. And that kind of tratment has no excuse even to supposedly do something as drastic as this.

2nd bold: well okay then. Thats your opinion and i respect it. but let me say that it does nothing to help boost your credebility.

Well if you're not going to bother explaining it, then I won't bother to investigate it.

The reason that there isn't a physician or psychiatrist exsists for this sord of thing is because as outlined in a link of that article "homosexuality is not a disorder or a disease, it does not require a cure."

And if you consider that kind of treatment to have no excuse, then your argument has no ground to stand on, and neither do you.

As far as my credibility is concerned, I'm one semester away from a degree in psychology, perhaps after I graduate you'll acknowledge my words more closely, not that you shouldn't anyway.

 

[Steampunk]

Well if you're not going to bother explaining it, then I won't bother to investigate it.

whelp u live up to your username. here is it in a nutshell:
when ever you get turned on by something you instantly think of the opposite sex, maybe even the process of sex itself.
do that enough and little by little, the latter will be the first to enter your head.
then gradually, you will start to get turned on by both, then its just a matter of time before the first one dissapears. It took several years, but it worked.

The reason that there isn't a physician or psychiatrist exsists for this sord of thing is because as outlined in a link of that article "homosexuality is not a disorder or a disease, it does not require a cure."

that is called and opinion.

And if you consider that kind of treatment to have no excuse, then your argument has no ground to stand on, and neither do you.

um what? i did nothing like the things they mentioned.

As far as my credibility is concerned, I'm one semester away from a degree in psychology, perhaps after I graduate you'll acknowledge my words more closely, not that you shouldn't anyway.

A degree, is a peice of paper that says that you learned what they told you. Not necesarrily the truth. You learned that it was impossible, but there are cases that disprove that, including yours truly.
a lesson of life, is you trust things that you can prove yourself, not things that you are told are true.

 

[miles0624]

A degree, is a peice of paper that says that you learned what they told you. Not necesarrily the truth. You learned that it was impossible, but there are cases that disprove that, including yours truly.
a lesson of life, is you trust things that you can prove yourself, not things that you are told are true.

This is true. When you go through your PHd program, you will learn that just like in high school, they lied to you a lot in college. When you go and personally research is when you can accurately what is true or false.

 

[Eterna]

that is called and opinion.

No it's not. Calling Homosexuality a disease is the same thing as calling heterosexuality a disease.

Plugging your ears and saying "It is not true!" is not an opinion, it is willful ignorance. You are choosing to ignore fact and pretending that your incorrect viewpoint of it is a valid interpretation.

 

[CSolarstorm]

that is called and opinion.

Is it though? Even if you consider homosexuality a problem that needs to be fixed, it doesn't make sense to call it a 'disease', like AIDS or scoliosis. In fact, it kind of devalues the use of the word 'disease'. Millions of people prove every day that homosexuality is not something that impairs them or damages their well-being or health. It only poses a problem to you if you have that quality and decide you don't like it, and that right there IS an opinion, and a choice. Even if homosexuality doesn't suit you personally, it's no more a disease than the wrong shape nose or forehead.

 

[Useless]

whelp u live up to your username.

Lol, on the contrary, considering a simple provocative statement frustrated you enough to repeat yourself for the third time in light of you telling me to look it up myself, which in turn provided me with the explanation I was seeking with almost little to no effort on my part.

'Useless,' indeed. xD

here is it in a nutshell:
when ever you get turned on by something you instantly think of the opposite sex, maybe even the process of sex itself.
do that enough and little by little, the latter will be the first to enter your head.
then gradually, you will start to get turned on by both, then its just a matter of time before the first one dissapears. It took several years, but it worked.

What nonsense, it sounds like the twisted ravings of L Ron Hubbard or some other fabricated philosphy. If changing ones sexual orientation were this simple homosexuality would have been abolished long ago, and the scientific community would be prescribing this ludicrousness left and right. Denial, Intellectualization, and Reaction formation truly are powerful defense mechanisms, but they are fragile and temporary, even for the most stalwart of minds - not to mention self destructive and counter intuitive to a developing and/or developed psyche.

that is called and opinion.

If you say so, buddy. >.>;

A degree, is a peice of paper that says that you learned what they told you. Not necesarrily the truth. You learned that it was impossible, but there are cases that disprove that, including yours truly.
a lesson of life, is you trust things that you can prove yourself, not things that you are told are true.

I admire such rigid skepticism, but by your logic I should take your testimony with as much a grain of salt as you take mine.

At any rate, I can see that this discussion won't be of any further use to either of us as the subject human sexuality is broad and hard to define in some cases, so it's best we leave it with you believing whatever it is that makes you feel better and I the same.

Good day.

 

[Steampunk]

No it's not. Calling Homosexuality a disease is the same thing as calling heterosexuality a disease.

Plugging your ears and saying "It is not true!" is not an opinion, it is willful ignorance. You are choosing to ignore fact and pretending that your incorrect viewpoint of it is a valid interpretation.

Is it though? Even if you consider homosexuality a problem that needs to be fixed, it doesn't make sense to call it a 'disease', like AIDS or scoliosis. In fact, it kind of devalues the use of the word 'disease'. Millions of people prove every day that homosexuality is not something that impairs them or damages their well-being or health. It only poses a problem to you if you have that quality and decide you don't like it, and that right there IS an opinion, and a choice. Even if homosexuality doesn't suit you personally, it's no more a disease than the wrong shape nose or forehead.

Ok i apologize for this cuz thats not what i was referring to an opinion.
i wasnt calling it a disease, i was saying that the it was his opinion on why there were no credentials. My opionon of why there are no credentials, is cuz u cant tell if a procedure works or not cuz there is no way to tell if the person in question is lying.

What nonsense, it sounds like the twisted ravings of L Ron Hubbard. If changing ones sexual orientation were this simple homosexuality would have been abolished long ago, and the scientific community would be prescribing this ludicrousness left and right. Denial, Intellectualization, and Reaction formation are truly powerful defense mechanisms.

i said in a nutshell didnt i?

 

[Grey Wind]

whelp u live up to your username. here is it in a nutshell:

Drop the attitude. You're the one with the horrific grammar who's spouting out random, incoherent points with zero evidence backing them up. I hardly think you're in a position to be acting to high and mighty.

when ever you get turned on by something you instantly think of the opposite sex, maybe even the process of sex itself.
do that enough and little by little, the latter will be the first to enter your head.
then gradually, you will start to get turned on by both, then its just a matter of time before the first one dissapears. It took several years, but it worked

Tonnes of gay people do that and end up getting married until their facade just comes crashing down around them. I'm in no position to tell you how you feel, but I highly doubt that just suppressing the feelings truly changed your sexuality.

Also, what you did wasn't a choice. Even if all that suppression did end up changing your feelings, it wouldn't make it a choice. You didn't suddenly decide "hey, I think I'll like women instead *ping*". I can do nothing but believe you (and other people) who say they've change their sexuality, but doing it through suppression is a very bad idea.

A degree, is a peice of paper that says that you learned what they told you. Not necesarrily the truth.

Okay, this is absolutely ridiculous. I mean... wow. Are you really trying to say that you know better than countless psychologists? Trying to debate by saying "that's not true" doesn't work, bro.

and it in no way disproves it either.

... do you know how a debate works? You're supposed to be, like, backing up the claim you've made. Just saying that we haven't disproved it doesn't make you any more right considering you've shown nothing to prove it.

Sure, some people can change their sexuality, and sometimes it does just change naturally over the course of time. Can't say anything against that. But claiming that everybody can just suppress it and then everything will be rainbows and bunny rabbits is ridiculous, and honestly kind of offensive to someone who has gone through torment over their sexuality. Surely if it was this easy countless of people would have just changed their sexuality?

lets say it this way, you condemn people cuz of something that they cant control is wrong, and as i said before, you can change your sexuality.
a pedophile can change to be gay/straight/bestial, and a bestial can change to be gay/straight/pedophile.
and then the flip is a straight person can become a gay/pedophile/bestial, and a gay can change to be straight/pedophile/bestial

you can condemn all people who are born that way or u can give them a way out. Like changing sexuality. And as i said before, it is possible, this is basically me continuing that line of thought

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

You... think that everybody can clearly change their sexuality (a fact which you have not proved, ho hum), so... what? Sorry, it's like, impossible to understand what you're saying :s

Also, what's with the whole "way out" thing? I'm legit not sure whether you disagree with homosexuality or not (I guess you do? Considering you seem to be urging people to find a "way out").

i said in a nutshell didnt i?

Haha... what?

e: apologies if I came off as too insulting here :V

 

[CSolarstorm]

Ok i apologize for this cuz thats not what i was referring to an opinion.
i wasnt calling it a disease, i was saying that the it was his opinion on why there were no credentials. My opionon of why there are no credentials, is cuz u cant tell if a procedure works or not cuz there is no way to tell if the person in question is lying.

Not true. There is a way to tell if each person is lying. That's why you get to know the people you're studying, and keep track of them over the years to see if they relapse. It's not really a matter of 'are you still gay?' / 'nope' / 'okay, have a good life'.

For instance, I'll bring up the case of David Reimer again. Dr. John Money told his parents to raise him as a girl. When he was a child, Money thought it was a success and the treatment worked, that he psychologically became a girl. Dr. Money only published results for his childhood. If he kept following him and working on his case, his early conclusion would have failed because he would find out Reimer threatened suicide as a teenager and returned to being a boy.

So no...there are reliable ways to get testimony from subjects in a study. That's not the reason why the credentials don't exist. Consider the facts that a) humanity has been studying sex and orientation just as long as anything else, b) credentials DID exist, like Exodus International, and c) even the programs that do exist don't always get rid of the urges, just train you to deal with them, and Useless' conclusion holds the most water.

 

[BJPalmer85]

glad to see this thread get some life back into it...

From what I can gather people are debating whether or not you can "change" someone's sexual orientation through mental conditioning, correct?

and whether it is ethical, correct?

right or wrong, possible or not....it is still something to think about

B

 

[CSolarstorm]

I'd also like to point out that having same-sex urges doesn't necessarily make you gay. You're only gay if those same-sex urges have been consistantly predominant. Otherwise there are classifications like bi, and bi-curious. Of course mental conditioning would work better on someone who was already attracted to the opposite sex as well as the same sex - those people still have an outlet for their sex lives even if they supress the gay side of it.

 

[BJPalmer85]

I'd also like to point out that having same-sex urges doesn't necessarily make you gay.

This i agree with. Just because you have some sort of an attraction to the opposite sex doesnt mean that you are gay

You're only gay if those same-sex urges have been consistantly predominant.

However I disagree with this. If the majority of your urges are for the same sex but not all of them, that does not automatically classify you as gay, at least in my opinion

B