Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

[miles0624]

I just want to say that I have really high hopes for this. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and I have faith that the court will finally overturn Prop 8 and DOMA. Looking at some of the Justices voting record, I think we may just have enough support on the Court to pass this.



Polling disagrees with you

Not exactly.
60-65 percent in favor of the ban on gay marriage.

African Americans as a whole still remain strongly against gay marriage. It is only the leaders (I.e. NAACP, Jet Magazine, etc.) that have come out for gay marriage. As a whole studies have shown African Americans to be the most religious and indignant on this issue. The second most religious group would be Hispanics. However, it is differently indoctrinated in their culture, so they are more accepting.

Also, in that same source, it said only 46 percent of African Americans supported it in that state, which is quite liberal.

 

[WizardTrubbish]

Not exactly.
60-65 percent in favor of the ban on gay marriage.

African Americans as a whole still remain strongly against gay marriage. It is only the leaders (I.e. NAACP, Jet Magazine, etc.) that have come out for gay marriage. As a whole studies have shown African Americans to be the most religious and indignant on this issue. The second most religious group would be Hispanics. However, it is differently indoctrinated in their culture, so they are more accepting.

Also, in that same source, it said only 46 percent of African Americans supported it in that state, which is quite liberal.

Polling shows that blacks are growing more accepting of gay marriage, especially after Obama came out in favor.

HuffingtonPost: Majority Of Blacks Support Gay Marriage After Obama's Endorsement
NPR: Polls Show Obama's Support For Gay Marriage Influencing Blacks
San Francisco Chronicle: Black support for gay marriage growing

Even your source states that the percentage of African Americans who oppose gay marriage went down from 67% in 2008 to 49% in 2012.

Yet a Pew Center poll released in April showed that the African-American community has softened in its opposition to gay marriage: In a 2008 survey, 67 percent of respondents said they didn’t approve of it, but in 2012 that number had dropped to 49 percent.

 

[Succubus]

Not exactly.
60-65 percent in favor of the ban on gay marriage.

African Americans as a whole still remain strongly against gay marriage. It is only the leaders (I.e. NAACP, Jet Magazine, etc.) that have come out for gay marriage. As a whole studies have shown African Americans to be the most religious and indignant on this issue. The second most religious group would be Hispanics. However, it is differently indoctrinated in their culture, so they are more accepting.

Also, in that same source, it said only 46 percent of African Americans supported it in that state, which is quite liberal.

Baby, the African American community is disapproving of gays but a LOT of men of that ethnicity love gay sex and I would say many of them are at least bi. Do not forget that the African American community ALSO has the highest rates of HIV (Hispanics are 2nd place).

And "indoctrinated in [Hispanic] culture"-- elaborate on this please~
Hispanics are more disapproving due to the large presence of catholic faith, as well as the higher inclination to have large families (and 2 gays cannot have a child obviously)

 

[WizardTrubbish]

Hispanics are more disapproving due to the large presence of catholic faith, as well as the higher inclination to have large families (and 2 gays cannot have a child obviously)

Catholics as a whole overwhelmingly support gay marriage (but don't tell the pope) The large presense of the Catholic faith wouldn't hurt Hispanic support for gay marriage. And Hispanics aren't really disapproving of gay marriage, honestly.

HuffingtonPost: Latinos Support Legalizing Gay Marriage, Exit Polls Show
NBCLatino: Latino support for gay marriage is growing
ABC: Poll: Majority of Latinos Back Same-Sex Marriage

 

[miles0624]

Baby, the African American community is disapproving of gays but a LOT of men of that ethnicity love gay sex and I would say many of them are at least bi. Do not forget that the African American community ALSO has the highest rates of HIV (Hispanics are 2nd place).

I really am not seeing your point. Also, you do know HIV has nothing to do with this Heterosexuals contact the disease too, so that percentage means nothing. Lastly, if you are making the "love gay sex" generalization, throw in Whites, Hispanics, Asians, etc. Really, there was no point in this.

And "indoctrinated in [Hispanic] culture"-- elaborate on this please~
Hispanics are more disapproving due to the large presence of catholic faith, as well as the higher inclination to have large families (and 2 gays cannot have a child obviously)

Actually, the Hispanic faith has less to do on it. The New York times did a report on April 26, 2007 that shows half of hispanics practice a "distinctive form" of Catholic Teaching. Here is the full text

The study, conducted by the Pew Hispanic Center and the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, found that half of Hispanic Catholics practice a ''distinctive form'' of charismatic Catholicism that includes speaking in tongues, miraculous healings and prophesying -- practices more often associated with Pentecostalism. Among Catholics who are not Hispanic, only 12 percent are involved in these practices.

The study also found that two-thirds of Hispanics choose to worship in ''ethnic congregations'' that have Hispanic clergymen and Spanish-language services, and where a majority of congregants are Hispanic. These congregations are cropping up throughout the country, even in areas where Hispanics are sparse.

Also there was another example published in the Wisconsin state journal that says,

Hispanics are known to be more family oriented than religious ... according to the survey, about 56 percent of first generation Hispanics were accepting to homosexuality. Among second generation Hispanics, this rose to 68 percent.

So when you compare African Americans to Hispanic Americans, Hispanics are more accepting on Homosexual behavior.

Here is another one that you can see.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/04/v-politics-values-and-religion/

They have the first generation a little less than the journal, and add a third generation Hispanic to the mix as well.

Even your source states that the percentage of African Americans who oppose gay marriage went down from 67% in 2008 to 49% in 2012.

You aren't looking at the entire picture. That poll was from PEW conducted in April. The 65% was from the Public Policy Polling conducted in May of that same year. Those are a month apart. With the Public policy polling being the last one. So looking at all three polls mentioned in the article African Americans have gone 67-49-65 in attitudes against homosexual marriage. However, I would say it went 67-65 because Amendment I was upheld with a strong African American presence against it.

Also, the problem I have with the PEW poll is that is only did 3500 African Americans in the West. However, you could say the same about my poll because it only took the Demographic of North Carolina.

There is an article in the Journal of African American History that says

Black churches still reign heavily against homosexual behavior. However, tolerance has been growing. Our study shows that approximately 42% of African Americans support Homosexual behavior.

It then goes on to say the study allows for a 3-5 percent error. That would be somewhere between 53 and 63 percent still against it. I think that would actually be more reasonable.

Lastly, the reason there are no links for some sources is that I am getting them off PDFs from Proquest and Lexusnexus.

 

[WizardTrubbish]

So when you compare African Americans to Hispanic Americans, Hispanics are more accepting on Homosexual behavior.

I don't disagree with you here. While polling does show that support for gay marriage is growing in the African-American community, polling shows Hispanics are way ahead on the issue.

Baby, the African American community is disapproving of gays but a LOT of men of that ethnicity love gay sex and I would say many of them are at least bi. Do not forget that the African American community ALSO has the highest rates of HIV (Hispanics are 2nd place).

Wait, what? First of all, you're making rash generalization and stereotyping a whole demographic without showing statistics to back up your claim, and secondly, as Miles said, HIV has nothing to do with sexuality.

 

[miles0624]

I don't disagree with you here. While polling does show that support for gay marriage is growing in the African-American community, polling shows Hispanics are way ahead on the issue.

Which I think helpped put Obama over the edge. Had the Democrats had someone else running, I think Homosexuality would have played into the black vote. Not a whole lot, but enough to make them reconsider. However, as the tides change, I would say homosexuality in politics would be a non issue by 2020.

How do you think the Supreme court will rule. I see it going either way because there is enough places to choose. The supreme court has affirmed in three cases the marriage is a civil right. The last case being in 2008. But it does say in the constitution that marriage is left up to the state.

 

[BigLutz]

How do you think the Supreme court will rule. I see it going either way because there is enough places to choose. The supreme court has affirmed in three cases the marriage is a civil right. The last case being in 2008. But it does say in the constitution that marriage is left up to the state.

I see DOMA being seen as unconstitutional, but I also see Prop 8 being held up. I do not see the Supreme Court making the same wrong decision as Roe vs Wade and energizing a movement against it that would last for decades to come. If the polls keep shifting the way they do then state after state will pass Gay Marriage, overturning Prop 8 could set that back a long way.

 

[BigLutz]

Some early tea leaves from the case so far suggests that the Supreme Court will not decide the case, thus leaving the 9th Circuit Pro Gay Marriage ruling in place. Right now there does not seem to be the necessary 5 votes to strike down Prop 8 and grant Gay Marriage nation wide. This could end up being rather ironic, as California's own refusal to defend the case could cost Gays the chance to have nation wide recognition.

 

[Byzantine]

Some early tea leaves from the case so far suggests that the Supreme Court will not decide the case, thus leaving the 9th Circuit Pro Gay Marriage ruling in place. Right now there does not seem to be the necessary 5 votes to strike down Prop 8 and grant Gay Marriage nation wide. This could end up being rather ironic, as California's own refusal to defend the case could cost Gays the chance to have nation wide recognition.

I find it ironic that both laws they are looking at have been refused to be defended by the people who are supposed to defend them. The Obama administration won't touch the DOMA with a 10 foot poll, and California is similarly disowning prop 8. I think both of these are rather clear signs that things are changing, and much more rapidly now than they have in the past. In many ways the Supreme Court is usually ahead of its time when it comes to rights, hopefully they aren't going to lag behind here. Because the simple fact is if they don't rule in favor of nationwide gay marriage it won't even be a decade before it gets to the Supreme Court again, and this time it will likely be a 5-4 split in the liberal direction. Regardless, they managed to be united against segregation, let's see what happens here.

 

[BigLutz]

I find it ironic that both laws they are looking at have been refused to be defended by the people who are supposed to defend them. The Obama administration won't touch the DOMA with a 10 foot poll, and California is similarly disowning prop 8. I think both of these are rather clear signs that things are changing, and much more rapidly now than they have in the past. In many ways the Supreme Court is usually ahead of its time when it comes to rights, hopefully they aren't going to lag behind here. Because the simple fact is if they don't rule in favor of nationwide gay marriage it won't even be a decade before it gets to the Supreme Court again, and this time it will likely be a 5-4 split in the liberal direction. Regardless, they managed to be united against segregation, let's see what happens here.

It's not being "ahead" of anything, it is about the rule of law, I am as much in favor of Gay Marriage as the next person, but the Supreme Court could royally screw up here and give us another "Roe vs Wade" in which the feelings toward Gay Marriage take a 180 as people feel the Supreme Court overreached.

Honestly though, I would have no problem if they left Prop 8 in place, the people voted, if it needs to be overturned then provide another vote.

 

[BJPalmer85]

Honestly though, I would have no problem if they left Prop 8 in place, the people voted, if it needs to be overturned then provide another vote.

But why though? I feel that it should just be thrown out and let it be done with. Or are you thinking that people might feel as if the government is using to much power? basically saying "your vote means nothing"

I am just confused or your support of gay marriage but being ok that Prop 8 stands. Of course I could be entirely misunderstand you and what Prop 8 actually is (it is possible, easily confused)

B

 

[WizardTrubbish]

I am just confused or your support of gay marriage but being ok that Prop 8 stands. Of course I could be entirely misunderstand you and what Prop 8 actually is (it is possible, easily confused)

I thing BigLutz is saying that while he may personally support ditching Prop 8, he believes the Supreme Court overturning it will simply inflame the gay marriage debate further, like Roe v. Wade did with abortion, doing more harm than good.

Not saying I agree with him, but I think that's what he's trying to say

 

[Byzantine]

It's not being "ahead" of anything, it is about the rule of law, I am as much in favor of Gay Marriage as the next person, but the Supreme Court could royally screw up here and give us another "Roe vs Wade" in which the feelings toward Gay Marriage take a 180 as people feel the Supreme Court overreached.

Honestly though, I would have no problem if they left Prop 8 in place, the people voted, if it needs to be overturned then provide another vote.

You certainly have a point. However I think one of the fundamentals we need to understand is that it is NOT for the public to decide who gets what right. Human Rights are supposed to be universal, and not up for debate, that is the entire reason why we have a Constitution like we do, it is not only to prevent the government from becoming too powerful, but to prevent the majority from reigning over the minority, and that is why i think the courts need to have the power to make these decisions, otherwise we will end up in the horror of letting the majority decide everything, and people are stupid, particularly when it comes to the idea of letting everyone actually be treated fairly.

 

[miles0624]

You certainly have a point. However I think one of the fundamentals we need to understand is that it is NOT for the public to decide who gets what right. Human Rights are supposed to be universal, and not up for debate, that is the entire reason why we have a Constitution like we do, it is not only to prevent the government from becoming too powerful, but to prevent the majority from reigning over the minority, and that is why i think the courts need to have the power to make these decisions, otherwise we will end up in the horror of letting the majority decide everything, and people are stupid, particularly when it comes to the idea of letting everyone actually be treated fairly.

However marriage is a tricky civil right. Because the Supreme court defined marriage in the past as giving benefits for

Procreation
Known, or at least presumed, paternity
Child and spousal support
Stability in family life
Survivor's rights

This is how they defined it allowing it for interracial couples. From here the Supreme Court split it into three sides. The social, the religious, and the government parts.

This was the further exemplified by a Massachusetts court ruling. Basically, as I understand it, in 2004, Massachusetts allowed homosexuals to obtain civil unions equal to that of marriage. However, the Supreme Judicial Court stated by not allowing them the full title of Marriage, they are putting homosexuals as second class citizens and that the social aspect, as quoted above, was outdated. This (and Vermont) are what originally caused this topic to become so hot.

This has now led us to the social norm vs religious norm vs government norm. The original problem with marriage is that it is only seen as a contract between (traditionally) and male and female. But because of the ruling of the supreme court, it is a civil right granted between a man and a women (as defined by the previous Supreme Court).

Which then led to the comparisons to polygamy. If they were to decide that religious nor social aspects play a part in this contract, then why can't people have a contract with more than one person, and you guys know all the rest of these arguments.

Here is where the problem lies though. If the supreme court does not hold prop 8, it puts the people who were married in between that time in limbo to their marital status. The reason is that California banned gay marriage before the judges ruling was certified. Thus the people can't get married because they technically already are, and they can't reap the benefits of marriage because they technically aren't.

Judging by the way I saw the Supreme court acting today, I am not even sure they will rule DOMA unconstitutional. They all looked like, "why are we here" and I was like you idiots are the one who picks the cases.

Edit: On my personal preference, I would prefer that they just went ahead and separated Marriage from Civil Unions. Give everyone their rights as a civil union, then if they want to get married as like a ceremony, they can do it through the church or or through social means. However, I don't want the Supreme court to force churches to marry homosexuals like they did the church in Kentucky. (They forced them to do an interracial marriage.) However, that precedent is already set.

 

[ECM]

Edit: On my personal preference, I would prefer that they just went ahead and separated Marriage from Civil Unions. Give everyone their rights as a civil union, then if they want to get married as like a ceremony, they can do it through the church or or through social means. However, I don't want the Supreme court to force churches to marry homosexuals like they did the church in Kentucky. (They forced them to do an interracial marriage.) However, that precedent is already set.

I think a lot of gays would rather get married in a swamp than in a church that condemns their behavior. Either let everyone get married, or don't let anyone get married.

 

[WizardTrubbish]

Edit: On my personal preference, I would prefer that they just went ahead and separated Marriage from Civil Unions. Give everyone their rights as a civil union, then if they want to get married as like a ceremony, they can do it through the church or or through social means. However, I don't want the Supreme court to force churches to marry homosexuals like they did the church in Kentucky. (They forced them to do an interracial marriage.) However, that precedent is already set.

They're not going to force churches to marry same-sex couples. It goes against the church's teachings, and I'm no biblical expert, but last I checked, interracial marriage does not.

 

[miles0624]

They're not going to force churches to marry same-sex couples. It goes against the church's teachings, and I'm no biblical expert, but last I checked, interracial marriage does not.

It goes against standard church teachings, but not all. It comes down to doctrine etc. There are some denominations for it, others against. Hell, in Mississippi, they still have a few White only churches (as was the one in Kentucky). The problem is that the line between church and state is becoming too blurred. Plus its hard to keep up with 33,000 denominations.

 

[BJPalmer85]

I thing BigLutz is saying that while he may personally support ditching Prop 8, he believes the Supreme Court overturning it will simply inflame the gay marriage debate further, like Roe v. Wade did with abortion, doing more harm than good.

Not saying I agree with him, but I think that's what he's trying to say

Ok that makes sense, thanks for clearing that up.

I get the idea behind it but I am not sure whether I agree or not, I will have to think on it

As for the topics on the churches, I know that it will never happen in Catholic churches but I know of several churches in the city that have openly gay members and are fully supported by the church, as for those denominations I have no idea. And to whoever said that was still an all white church in Kentucky, really? Where? I'm curious since I live in Kentucky, that is just crazy

B

 

[miles0624]

Ok that makes sense, thanks for clearing that up.

I get the idea behind it but I am not sure whether I agree or not, I will have to think on it

As for the topics on the churches, I know that it will never happen in Catholic churches but I know of several churches in the city that have openly gay members and are fully supported by the church, as for those denominations I have no idea. And to whoever said that was still an all white church in Kentucky, really? Where? I'm curious since I live in Kentucky, that is just crazy

B

I am trying to find the exact church, but apparently another Church in Kentucky banned interracial couples in 2011. What is wrong with you people up there. =p

http://abcnews.go.com/US/kentucky-church-bans-interracial-couples/story?id=15065204#.UVLgaYaK2Ds

I think a lot of gays would rather get married in a swamp than in a church that condemns their behavior. Either let everyone get married, or don't let anyone get married.

However, not all would.

I'm fine with that. Take away all the benefits, and just give equal all around, regardless of marriage or not. and only give it to state sanctioned civil unions.