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Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

BigLutz

Banned
And that is where we disagree. As far as I'm concerned you don't vote on something like this, and any vote on it, regardless of the outcome, has no validity, hence we can, will, and should stomp all over state's rights if that is what it takes.

That is fair, but then would you suggest true equality and having all marriage laws overturned and merely make it a union ceremony involving anything? Or do you wish to merely overturn the laws that you do not like?
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
That is fair, but then would you suggest true equality and having all marriage laws overturned and merely make it a union ceremony involving anything? Or do you wish to merely overturn the laws that you do not like?

For the most part I would be fine with that. The only reason close relations aren't allowed to marry is for their own protection, and I couldn't care less about polygamy, and that is about it in terms of restrictions (given that any definition does include "consenting adult" at least in the US).

Of course that would spark a whole bunch of other issues, but those are mostly because of people being uptight.
 

BigLutz

Banned
For the most part I would be fine with that. The only reason close relations aren't allowed to marry is for their own protection, and I couldn't care less about polygamy, and that is about it in terms of restrictions (given that any definition does include "consenting adult" at least in the US).

Of course that would spark a whole bunch of other issues, but those are mostly because of people being uptight.

Close relations are not able to marry because of the genetic disorders of their potential offspring, yet as with Gay Marriage, the definition of marriage cannot be about procreation. And mind you I am speaking of going beyond merely consenting adult, as I do see that as providing a definition that prevents people from engaging in their rights just as one could say "One Man and One Woman" does.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
Close relations are not able to marry because of the genetic disorders of their potential offspring, yet as with Gay Marriage, the definition of marriage cannot be about procreation. And mind you I am speaking of going beyond merely consenting adult, as I do see that as providing a definition that prevents people from engaging in their rights just as one could say "One Man and One Woman" does.

Except unless you are a consenting adult you DON'T have a right to agree to be married, as far as our laws are concerned.
 

BigLutz

Banned
Except unless you are a consenting adult you DON'T have a right to agree to be married, as far as our laws are concerned.

But then again we are talking about laws being restrictive right? We have laws preventing the same sex from marrying as well don't we?
 

miles0624

Wrath of Fire
It's been nice speaking with you though.

It was fun. Don't be a stranger.

Except unless you are a consenting adult you DON'T have a right to agree to be married, as far as our laws are concerned.

Except you don't have to be consenting adults in America. I know in Tennessee, you are allowed to be married at sixteen with parental consent. There was actually a case a that they showed on channel five of a 15 and seventeen year old getting a court order to marry. (You have to receive a court order if one of the partners is under 16.) You would actually be hindering them. As far as the divorce rate among this group is concerned, i don't think a study has ever been done. However, I have a friend who got married at sixteen and she says she still deeply in love at 28.

Basically, from what I saw today, prop 8 will stand. One of the justices saying that what the country wants them to do it out of their power. So it is going to be a states right.

Ok, so can someone (probably Biglutz) clear this up for me. Did DOMA actually give benefits to married couples? If it did, wouldn't it have been better to just amend the law to include same-sex unions?
 

7 tyranitars

Well-Known Member
It was fun. Don't be a stranger.



Except you don't have to be consenting adults in America. I know in Tennessee, you are allowed to be married at sixteen with parental consent. There was actually a case a that they showed on channel five of a 15 and seventeen year old getting a court order to marry. (You have to receive a court order if one of the partners is under 16.) You would actually be hindering them. As far as the divorce rate among this group is concerned, i don't think a study has ever been done. However, I have a friend who got married at sixteen and she says she still deeply in love at 28.

Basically, from what I saw today, prop 8 will stand. One of the justices saying that what the country wants them to do it out of their power. So it is going to be a states right.

Ok, so can someone (probably Biglutz) clear this up for me. Did DOMA actually give benefits to married couples? If it did, wouldn't it have been better to just amend the law to include same-sex unions?

DOMA prohibits giving federal benefits to same-sex unions
 

BJPalmer85

Well-Known Member
Question: Hypothetically every thing is struck down, gay marriage is legal and given the same rights as non-gay marriage. How long will this take to go into effect? is it immediately? is there a waiting period? or possibly even some sort of appeals period?

B
 

miles0624

Wrath of Fire
Question: Hypothetically every thing is struck down, gay marriage is legal and given the same rights as non-gay marriage. How long will this take to go into effect? is it immediately? is there a waiting period? or possibly even some sort of appeals period?

B

As I understand it, when the court strikes down something, it goes under the "public welfare requiring it" which means it is in effect three months after. So if DOMA is rules unconstitutional, the ruling is given three months for the feds and states to get everything togerther.

Edit: I lied. It is implemented immediately afterword, but the feds and states are givin three months to implement. (At the request of the court, it can be dropped to six weeks.)
 
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BJPalmer85

Well-Known Member
As I understand it, when the court strikes down something, it goes under the "public welfare requiring it" which means it is in effect three months after. So if DOMA is rules unconstitutional, the ruling is given three months for the feds and states to get everything togerther.

Edit: I lied. It is implemented immediately afterword, but the feds and states are givin three months to implement. (At the request of the court, it can be dropped to six weeks.)

So does that mean that gay couples will be able to get married the following day or they have to wait the 3 month (or 6 weeks)?

B
 

BJPalmer85

Well-Known Member
No. That would mean that the states would have to be performing it sometime before the 3 months (or six weeks).

Oh ok. thanks.

B
 

Succubus

Member
Ah yes, change WILL come. Whether it is now or later-- the change is inevitable. Gay marriage WILL be accepted. America is SO backwards. We need to get the privileged, white men out of the decision making seats.

Baby, we are on the same page-- African Americans DO disapprove homosxuality more than Hispanics. As for HIV rates-- you are clueless. Straight people do not get HIV as common as homosexuals. You probably are not experienced in anything other than quoting outdated articles (2007, really?! do you know nothing about valid research? The maximum references should be 2-3 years old....)

Anyway, I work with HIV associations and really HIV among straights is only prevalent among Africa. Homosexuals make the majority of new cases in the US, by a large number. The fact that African Americans have a higher HIV statistic means that they ARE partaking in homosexual sex. Same thing goes for hispanics. Social pressures affect the expression of sexuality as well...
 

BigLutz

Banned
Ah yes, change WILL come. Whether it is now or later-- the change is inevitable. Gay marriage WILL be accepted. America is SO backwards. We need to get the privileged, white men out of the decision making seats.

I wouldn't be so sure about that change, atleast in Europe. For one unless Europe starts getting it's birth rate up significantly, they are going to have to reckon with the ever increasing immigrant voting block who are arriving from the Middle East. And last time I checked, the countries they are coming from are not that key on Gays or Gay Marriage.
 

Mye

Someone has to win..
I wouldn't be so sure about that change, atleast in Europe. For one unless Europe starts getting it's birth rate up significantly, they are going to have to reckon with the ever increasing immigrant voting block who are arriving from the Middle East. And last time I checked, the countries they are coming from are not that key on Gays or Gay Marriage.

I agree. Another big factor too is the fact that the 2 top countries in population are chinese (whose culture almost demands heterosexuality), and americans (who have roughly half of their country hating gay marriage). In order to truly have all forms of marriage accepted in the world, the 2 biggest populations will need to support it first.
 

Byzantine

Well-Known Member
But then again we are talking about laws being restrictive right? We have laws preventing the same sex from marrying as well don't we?

You have to be an adult to vote too. Does that mean we should be able to arbitrarily decide who gets to vote base don other factors too?
 

miles0624

Wrath of Fire
You have to be an adult to vote too. Does that mean we should be able to arbitrarily decide who gets to vote base don other factors too?

Well, we already do. (With your adult reference). Thomas Hobbes made a statement that it is only through rules that we are truly free. We put rules in place to keep structure.
 

BigLutz

Banned
You have to be an adult to vote too. Does that mean we should be able to arbitrarily decide who gets to vote base don other factors too?

I have always believed that voting should not be a right given out by age, but by when a person starts working, as Taxation without Representation was a massive deal in the formation of our democracy. That being said, I truly believe that having age be a arbitrary deciding factor for anything is pretty stupid. We have 14, 13, even 12 year olds that have to grow up mentally very quickly and take responsibility for many family problems, while we have 18, 19, and 20 year olds that have the mental maturity of middle schoolers.
 

7 tyranitars

Well-Known Member
I have always believed that voting should not be a right given out by age, but by when a person starts working, as Taxation without Representation was a massive deal in the formation of our democracy. That being said, I truly believe that having age be a arbitrary deciding factor for anything is pretty stupid. We have 14, 13, even 12 year olds that have to grow up mentally very quickly and take responsibility for many family problems, while we have 18, 19, and 20 year olds that have the mental maturity of middle schoolers.

What about college people? Because personaly I find the thought that someone who quit highschool and haves low paying job having more right to vote pretty scary.

Not to mention that the economy isn't the only thing politics is for
 

BigLutz

Banned
What about college people? Because personaly I find the thought that someone who quit highschool and haves low paying job having more right to vote pretty scary.

Well may I ask, what would you find more scary in having rights associated with being an adult? The 15 year old high school drop out, working a low paying job. Or the College student? The law says the College Student as we expect at that age the person to be more mentally mature. But lets look deeper into this? The 15 year old is a drop out and working long hours at a Pizza Place, but he dropped out because his father is in prison, and his mother uses the welfare checks to support a drug habit. At that point the only way for the high school student to take care of his younger siblings is to drop out and find a job. Meanwhile the College Student spends most time at the fraternity house than in class, and coasts along with Ds and Cs, while spending his nights drinking and engaging in stupid activities.

Now which one of those would you rather have voting? The responsible drop out, or the Frat loving College Student?

Not to mention that the economy isn't the only thing politics is for

That is true, but Taxation without Representation is a pretty big thing in America atleast, our country was founded upon it, those that are working now, and are taxed with out being able to vote goes against the very founding of this country, and as such atleast deserve a vote.

To put it another way, should rights we now associate with age, honestly be given out because of age, or because of mental maturity? Should a 18 year old college student or drop out, be able to sign a contract to get a credit card, or join the army even though they both have the mental maturity of some one that is 15?
 
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