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Homosexuality & Politics in the 21st Century

Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
Well he isn't a scientist is he. His beliefs come directly from the bible. I know the "b" word is frowned upon here, but thats just the facts of where his beliefs are coming from.
Then he shouldn't talk about science.

There is a famous quote from Albert Einstein:

Einstein said:
If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut.
In other words, you can learn, but not be successful in knowing.

Ah yes, the literal word of the Bible. Shall we stone the adulterers?
 

Lugia's Chosen

Well-Known Member
Then he shouldn't talk about science.

There is a famous quote from Albert Einstein:


In other words, you can learn, but not be successful in knowing.

Ah yes, the literal word of the Bible. Shall we stone the adulterers?

Not according to Jesus who stopped a stoning of an adulterer. The law changed when he came to one of vengeance to one of forgiveness. There are obviously parts in the bible that are meant to be taken as symbolism though. Phil just happens to think that homosexuality as a sin is not one of them.
 
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Auraninja

Eh, ragazzo!
Not according to Jesus who stopped a stoning of an adulterer. The law changed when he came to one of vengeance to one of forgiveness. There are obviously parts in the bible that are meant to be taken as symbolism though. Phil just happens to think that homosexuality as a sin is not one of them.
When do such symbolism end and the literal stuff begins? How can you verify the bible with no peer support against a scientific notion with thousands of articles backed by many people? If the "homosexuality" part of the Bible is true, then should the gays be put to death? That is mentioned.
 

Lugia's Chosen

Well-Known Member
When do such symbolism end and the literal stuff begins? How can you verify the bible with no peer support against a scientific notion with thousands of articles backed by many people? If the "homosexuality" part of the Bible is true, then should the gays be put to death? That is mentioned.
In the old testament. Once again, that was a law of vengeance that was changed in the new testament with the coming of Jesus. The new testament says that homosexuals won't inherit the kingdom of god, but it does not say they should be put to death. The Old testament preached wrath and vengeance, the new was primarily about forgiveness
 

John Madden

resident policy guy
There are a couple of points I'd like to make here to try and prevent them from gumming up future discussions.

First, you seem to be taking shelter behind the word "proof." In whichever sense science can be said to describe regularities about the world, it never achieves "proof." There are epistemic limits built into the groundwork of the scientific method: 1) some undetected variable could be responsible for an observed pattern of phenomenon, and 2) all instances of observed causation could in fact be products of chance. These possibilities are so unlikely as to be negligible, but they prevent science from strict "proofs" (like the kind found in mathematics/logic). If you hold a conclusion hostage to "scientific proof," you will never believe that conclusion. When it comes to science, statistical significance and overwhelming evidence-driven consensus are the strongest kinds of "proof" possible (heliocentrism, atomic theory, germ theory, general and special relativity, evolution by natural selection - these are all "proven" according to this standard). If you don't accept those as proof, you don't accept science, period.

Second, it seems like a good idea to clarify the difference between a scientific conclusion or consensus and an opinion. Scientific conclusions are not the same things as opinions. There is occasionally room for speculation or reasoned extrapolation from the results of scientific investigations, but there is not generally much freedom available to extrapolate into. A scientific consensus is forced by the trend in data. In other words, even if you want to call scientific consensus an opinion (and that would be a very misleading use of the word 'opinion'), it is an opinion that scientists have little or no choice in forming. If scientists feed ten thousands cats a small blue pill, and all but three of the cats immediately perish (in a sound experiment with the usual proper controls and validity checks), the scientific conclusion must be that the pill is fatal to cats. A scientist cannot use that data to form the conclusion that the pill is healthy for cats; such a conclusion would simply be insupportable. Likewise, given everything that humans beings know about sexual orientation, concluding that it is a choice is scientifically insupportable.

Opinions, on the other hand, are not constrained by data. An opinion can be anything its bearer wants it to be - even contrary to data. Lugia's Chosen, when DannyDirnt says that he is gay and did not choose to be so, it makes no sense for you to reply that, in your opinion his sexual orientation was in fact a choice; he just explicitly told you otherwise. And after all, who better to say whether it was a choice then the individual whose choice it is (or isn't)? Granted, there are legitimate examples of people being sincerely unaware of their own motivations, but in the absence of you bringing to the table any evidence of that being the case for Danny, your opinion is an astonishingly insufficient response. Imagine you saying you liked vanilla flavor more than chocolate, and I said, "Well in my opinion, you like chocolate more than vanilla." It would be an absurd thing for me to say, yeah? You will have to qualify your opinion by amending it to "most/some/a few people choose their sexual orientation." And even then, you must recognize that your opinion does not stand in relation to the truth about reality to the same degree that a scientific consensus does.

To add slightly to this, even in disciplines where the consensus is based on data that admittedly isn't nearly as "settled" as with the aforementioned gold standards of scientific "proof" (most famously, at the moment, in climatology), the room for reasoned extrapolation and speculation is rather limited - and away from the direction of most skepticism within the field, not toward it.

This seems a very ironic thing for you to say in light of the above discussion. You are correct, of course. But Maedar's opinion no less changes the fact of the show's ratings than your opinion changes the fact of whether sexual orientation is chosen or not. In neither case does the opinion have relevance to the facts about the subject matter.

John Madden provided a link describing the lack of debate among professional scientific organizations about whether sexual orientation is a choice, and WizardTrubbish provided a link about the scientific conclusion itself. (And there are many more such organizations espousing said conclusion besides the two APAs John Madden cites - I posted about them myself either earlier in this thread or in a preceding homosexuality thread, in case you were interested in finding out who they are.)

You haven't refuted (or even acknowledged) the information in either link. This makes sense if you understand that your opinion bears no relation whatsoever to the facts about sexual orientation, for then those links would be irrelevant to you. But that also means that your opinion would be irrelevant to a discussion about sexual orientation in which facts hold sway - like this one.

I'm of the opinion that Lutz and LC are simply taking the route of attacking the lowest-hanging fruit here, in terms of who they're formulating responses to - Lutz because he apparently blocked my posts so that he can focus on making every thread a personal showdown between him and Maedar, and LC because he really doesn't want to invest that much time into this subforum and wants to argue about the most cut-and-dry thing currently tangentially relevant to the thread.

I'm otherwise completely baffled that those posts haven't even been acknowledged, let alone seen an attempt at rebuttal.

e: I'm mostly baffled about that from LC's end, because I know for a fact that Lutz isn't as much of a social conservative.
 
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BigLutz

Banned
I do wish to add going back to previous posts that I believe sexual identity is not a choice but a biological function that people have no control over. That goes for straight people, gay people, zooaphiles, pedophiles and down the list. Too many people have suffered and continue to suffer all around the world for it to be a choice. Does that mean that it is a sin? That isn't up for me to decide, there are many things in religions considered sins that we are supposed to not act on, but I cannot see how the urge itself is anymore sinful than falling in love with a girl. But I am not a priest. That being said since the urge cannot be considered a sin I see no reason why homosexuals cannot be married in a church. If a church wishes to punish people for what they might or might not do in the bedroom then the same should go for anyone who has extra marital affairs including swingers and porn stars but I donot see churches asking people about their profession or what they do with friends when they schedule weddings.

Anyway that is merely my opinion.
 
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There is no definitive scientific proof that it is something you are born with or not. So naturally its left up to specualation of both sides of the argument. My opinion is it a choice. Clearly neither of us is going to change our opinion, so agree to disagree i suppose

Did you... did you really just try to tell Danny that his sexual orientation is a choice after he told you straight up what his lived experiences are?
 

Lugia's Chosen

Well-Known Member
http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/12/20/duck-dynasty-return-phil/

Well that didn't last long. A&E has already backed down. Phil will be back in January

PS: excuse me that season was already filmed and had phil in it, but A&E states they are going to do everything they can with the Robertson family to resolve this and continue airing them after the next season. The family says they will not in any way allow their religious beliefs to be threatened though, so this isn't over yet. My bad
 
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John Madden

resident policy guy
well, that didn't last long, if you know what i mean

(seriously how is it even remotely up for debate at this point that attraction isn't a choice)
 
well, that didn't last long, if you know what i mean

(seriously how is it even remotely up for debate at this point that attraction isn't a choice)

Millenials somehow grew up with the idea that opinions are sacred and you have to respect everyone's conjectures no matter how deeply in the annals of their own anus they pulled them out of in the face of modern science
 
Idk I simply don't get to understand why my rights have to be something debatable just because I'm different while straight people have all the right to get married, adopt children, etc.
 

Blazekickblaziken

Snarktastic Ditz
Millenials somehow grew up with the idea that opinions are sacred and you have to respect everyone's conjectures no matter how deeply in the annals of their own anus they pulled them out of in the face of modern science

This is very, very true. I don't think it's just millenials though.

People need to learn, if your opinion differs from someone else's opinion it's adifference of opinion. If your opinion differs from fact, you're an idiot.
 
This is very, very true. I don't think it's just millenials though.

People need to learn, if your opinion differs from someone else's opinion it's adifference of opinion. If your opinion differs from fact, you're an idiot.

You could be right - I say millennials because we're the Internet generation and thus the ones taking up the most space in these debates in this medium -- not to mention, many of the people of the "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge" mindset are too young to have ever experienced things like getting fired from a job for stating a terrible opinion and expecting to be protected. I can't speak to older generations since I don't interact with them as much.

Idk I simply don't get to understand why my rights have to be something debatable just because I'm different while straight people have all the right to get married, adopt children, etc.

I still firmly believe that the USA should not put same-sex marriage up to a vote. We didn't put it up to a vote here in Canada and we're doing just fine.
 
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BigLutz

Banned

Dreamy

Well-Known Member
No, no it's not. That's not how freedom of speech works.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism or freedom from social repercussions. Freedom of speech means that you are (ALMOST) free of *legal* repercussions.



Ok here's the thing, a group is formed of INDIVIDUALS. Saying that "Well, he's just one person" ignores the fact that EVERYONE is just one person. Society as a whole gathering together and saying "Stop spouting racist/sexist/homophobic lies" is not infringing on anyone's right to freedom of speech, it's society expressing that same right.

That's basically what I was trying to get at, I just wasn't very clear on my intentions, and for that I apologize.

On the second note please don't take what I say out of context, please remark on the FULL statement.



I'll just leave it at this: I don't believe that it was right what was said and I in no way condone any such behavior. Goodnight -.-
 
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Steampunk

One Truth Prevails
By the way, there was an interesting story on Huff Post today.

Here is what Jesus actually said about homosexuality.

Go on, click on it. You might be surprised:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/22/what-jesus-says-about-homosexuality-_n_4489452.html
This isn't exactly a breakthrough. But one thing that is noteworthy is that while he did not specifically mention homosexuality, he did refer to the OT quite often, so if he wanted to say "this part of the OT no longer applies" then odds are, he would have said it.

Now I would just like to toss in my two cents on the whole "choice" issue. While I am perfectly aware that yes, people usually (I say usually because I do think that it can come about in other ways as well) just "have the attraction" perhaps they are born with it, perhaps, it was other factors, to me it doesn't really matter how you got it, all that matter is that you do have it. To me the real question is, "do you stay with it?" Now, I know I'll get a lot of hate for this, and I mentioned it earlier, but I'll say it again. I thought I was gay for a long time, but then I fell in love with a girl and then the rest is history. Now, I am not saying this with the intent to bash, or with the intent to imply that anyone can do this, this is just what happened to me. Now, I personally know several more people who have done this, same thing. I have basically concluded that even though people have these feelings, they are by no means concrete. Just because a guy has an attraction to girls does not mean it is impossible for him to fall in love with a dude, and, just because a guy has an attraction to guys does not mean its impossible for him to fall in love with a girl.
Now, I am in the position where I have the attraction to both, so I have a choice. Male or Female? I chose female, to be completely honest it was mostly just because she liked me back. Now, when I look at other people in the same situation I just kind of think for a moment, "Are they in the same boat I was?" "If they are, I wonder what choice they'd make?" Now as you all know, because of my religion, I would not have chosen the homosexual lifestyle. To say that a person has absolutely no say in the matter is just plain wrong. Perhaps they have very little say, or in some cases, maybe no say. And I can't and won't make that choice for other people. But they do have a choice, not to choose what they feel, but the choice on how to act on what they feel.

I Probably won't post in this topic for a while now, so if anyone wants to go further, VM or PM me.
 

Maedar

Banned
So, Ansem, you're saying that because he did not debunk a text that he didn't even know about it's proof that he agreed with it?

I mean, seriously, seriously, what proof do you have that Jesus read any of the OT? Or that it was even collected in one volume back then? Or even that he could read?

The New Testament says that He usually said things orally. He never wrote anything. The Gospels were all penned by other people.

Books were rare at the time - this was before the invention of the printing press - most people were illiterate, and someone in His economic class didn't have access to libraries and other places where such things were kept.

Think about it. Jesus was raised by a poor carpenter, just how many luxuries that only church elders likely had do you think he had access to??
 
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