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How deep does the Cloning Market Go?

TheTrueRman

Amateur Breeder and Legend Collector
I was looking at my crown Beast trio
WIN2011 Entei Suicune and Raikou
I got these on here a few years back from a retired Event Collector
I wonder if it is truly possible to obtain an Authentic Trio of them.
Everywhere i search there are people trading these and even Selling these guys.

I can never be 100% sure if mine are authentic. They are Legit, All Information is to the T and IVs are Fair.
It kinda bothers my ocd thinking about using these guys. Like cheating, even though its not unbalanced technically.

I know im thinking too deeply about this, but id like to get some other players opinions on this. Also the Shiny Raid pokemon. Whats your thought on them?

What also is your opinion on using these Event pokemon?
 
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I doubt it's even a cloning market right now. Cloning was something that was mostly prominent in gens 3 and 4 since it was an easy glitch to perform, especially in gen 3. Most of them now are hacks, including a ton of raids.

There's no way to tell though, if you didn't catch/bred it yourself or participated in an event, you can never be sure it's legit. For recent events there's gonna be some legit ones in rotation, but for old ones I doubt there's going to be much people actually trading them.
 

WishIhadaManafi5

To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
Staff member
Moderator
Exactly. Now in order to do it... it involves doing stuff that's not legal and for the purposes of this site aren't up for discussion or allowed for discussion.
 

TheTrueRman

Amateur Breeder and Legend Collector
What is your Opinion on using these and other Event Pokemon that statistically are Legit, but can never be proven one way or another authentic. I really would like to use these Guys
 
You can use them in online battles. As long as their abilities and movepools are legit they give you no unfair advantage.

As far as trading goes though, if you receive a shiny (unless they were fish chain shinies in gen 6) or events, especially on something like wondertrade, assume it's not legit. It's the reason why I haven't traded for any since gen 4.
 

TheTrueRman

Amateur Breeder and Legend Collector
You can use them in online battles. As long as their abilities and movepools are legit they give you no unfair advantage.

As far as trading goes though, if you receive a shiny (unless they were fish chain shinies in gen 6) or events, especially on something like wondertrade, assume it's not legit. It's the reason why I haven't traded for any since gen 4.
thanks for your insight. I dont use anything that has Moves abilities Ivs that are obviously unfair, impossible, or hacked. Just was unsure about using potential event copies or Shiny Raid pokemon when everybody was jumping on that exploit to get those Shiny Gigantamaxs. I don't play online competitively, it was more or less a personal feeling if I was cheating.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
What is your Opinion on using these and other Event Pokemon that statistically are Legit, but can never be proven one way or another authentic.
Unless you downloaded an event Pokemon yourself, it's impossible to know for sure whether or not it's legitimate, in any case. Personally, it used to be something that I would fret over when I collected Mythical Pokemon and other special event Pokemon, but now I don't think about it too much. I don't mind cloned Pokemon either, and I always assume that when I do a trade with someone for a rare Pokemon, that what I'm getting was most likely cloned.

On the subject of a "market" however, I'm still somewhat surprised that people are actually selling Pokemon. To me it's morally wrong for players to demand money for tiny bits of data.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
About getting shinies on wonder trade, it's not impossible for some to be legit. Speaking of own experience as I accidently wonder traded a shiny Turtwig I got on Go and sent to Pokémon Home (and today nearly did the same to a shiny Torterra there. I should pay more attention lol)
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
You can use them in online battles. As long as their abilities and movepools are legit they give you no unfair advantage.

As far as trading goes though, if you receive a shiny (unless they were fish chain shinies in gen 6) or events, especially on something like wondertrade, assume it's not legit. It's the reason why I haven't traded for any since gen 4.
There was a suspiciously large number of shiny Mythical Pokémon in this past weekend's Wi-Fi event in Pokémon Sword and Shield (where there were special rules that only Legendary Pokémon, Mythical Pokémon, and Ultra Beasts were allowed). Most Legendary Pokémon how have a legitimate chance of being shiny, but there are some Mythical Pokémon that are still shiny-locked, like Zarude and Magearna. When they come up shiny in that event, I know for sure they're not legitimate Pokémon, even if they're functionally no different from them.

At this very moment, I'm playing a Max Raid Battle in which somebody brought their shiny Celebi. Then again, that DID exist in a prior event, so it's not a guarantee that it's hacked (but it's far enough back that it's more likely hacked than not).

Unless you downloaded an event Pokemon yourself, it's impossible to know for sure whether or not it's legitimate, in any case. Personally, it used to be something that I would fret over when I collected Mythical Pokemon and other special event Pokemon, but now I don't think about it too much. I don't mind cloned Pokemon either, and I always assume that when I do a trade with someone for a rare Pokemon, that what I'm getting was most likely cloned.

On the subject of a "market" however, I'm still somewhat surprised that people are actually selling Pokemon. To me it's morally wrong for players to demand money for tiny bits of data.
The market not only still exists, it's thriving, arguably more than ever. These guys aggressively give out shiny Legendary Pokémon with all perfect IVs and other hard-to-get Pokémon (who are also shiny with perfect IVs) via Surprise Trade as free samples, of sorts. Their nicknames are all URLs of where to go to buy more. (Another telltale sign is that they have Master Balls equipped.) Those URL-nickname Pokémon, in turn, get used in Max Raid Battles and in Casual Battles, where those URLs are freely visible and work as even more publicity. For a fee, they'll create a shiny Pokémon of whatever species they want and whatever moves they want, as long as it's legitimate. And they'll continue to do so for as long as Game Freak does nothing about it. (Not that it works for long when they do anyway--they're always circumvented within a week.)

They sell enough hacked Pokémon that they earn a living solely through doing this.

About 20% of all teams I currently face online in Ranked Battles in Sword and Shield consist solely of shiny Pokémon. Since I can't see their nicknames, I can't tell for sure what the source of them are, but there are enough of them that I am highly suspicious of their authenticity. Personally, I find them tacky, and collectively, they make shiny Pokémon look bad. (For the record, they don't appear to be region specific; proportionally, I see just as many Japanese teams like this as I see western teams, Korean teams, Chinese teams, etc.)

To the buyers, however, they probably see them as functionally identical to DLC. From their perspective, it's not unlike a microtransaction, where for some fee, some long, tedious process is circumvented for them. (I know for Shiny Hunters, this is neither long nor tedious, but it is for the people who want the reward without the effort.) Considering how much money the microtransaction model is making, it's no wonder that these guys are earning a killing off of it.
 
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There was a suspiciously large number of shiny Mythical Pokémon in this past weekend's Wi-Fi event in Pokémon Sword and Shield (where there were special rules that only Legendary Pokémon, Mythical Pokémon, and Ultra Beasts were allowed). Most Legendary Pokémon how have a legitimate chance of being shiny, but there are some Mythical Pokémon that are still shiny-locked, like Zarude and Magearna. When they come up shiny in that event, I know for sure they're not legitimate Pokémon, even if they're functionally no different from them.

At this very moment, I'm playing a Max Raid Battle in which somebody brought their shiny Celebi. Then again, that DID exist in a prior event, so it's not a guarantee that it's hacked (but it's far enough back that it's more likely hacked than not).
Yeah, I've been doing quite some max raids recently to get Dynamax Mushrooms and there's a ton of people using shinies. Often with nicknames of sites. And honestly, it's sad. One it devaluates shinies which as a shiny hunter really isn't fun and might make me seem like a hacker to others since I often use shinies myself. And two, it's sad for the people who actually paid for them. All it requires is patience to hunt one.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
There was a suspiciously large number of shiny Mythical Pokémon in this past weekend's Wi-Fi event in Pokémon Sword and Shield (where there were special rules that only Legendary Pokémon, Mythical Pokémon, and Ultra Beasts were allowed). Most Legendary Pokémon how have a legitimate chance of being shiny, but there are some Mythical Pokémon that are still shiny-locked, like Zarude and Magearna. When they come up shiny in that event, I know for sure they're not legitimate Pokémon, even if they're functionally no different from them.

At this very moment, I'm playing a Max Raid Battle in which somebody brought their shiny Celebi. Then again, that DID exist in a prior event, so it's not a guarantee that it's hacked (but it's far enough back that it's more likely hacked than not).


The market not only still exists, it's thriving, arguably more than ever. These guys aggressively give out shiny Legendary Pokémon with all perfect IVs and other hard-to-get Pokémon (who are also shiny with perfect IVs) via Surprise Trade as free samples, of sorts. Their nicknames are all URLs of where to go to buy more. (Another telltale sign is that they have Master Balls equipped.) Those URL-nickname Pokémon, in turn, get used in Max Raid Battles and in Casual Battles, where those URLs are freely visible and work as even more publicity. For a fee, they'll create a shiny Pokémon of whatever species they want and whatever moves they want, as long as it's legitimate. And they'll continue to do so for as long as Game Freak does nothing about it. (Not that it works for long when they do anyway--they're always circumvented within a week.)

They sell enough hacked Pokémon that they earn a living solely through doing this.

About 20% of all teams I currently face online in Ranked Battles in Sword and Shield consist solely of shiny Pokémon. Since I can't see their nicknames, I can't tell for sure what the source of them are, but there are enough of them that I am highly suspicious of their authenticity. Personally, I find them tacky, and collectively, they make shiny Pokémon look bad. (For the record, they don't appear to be region specific; proportionally, I see just as many Japanese teams like this as I see western teams, Korean teams, Chinese teams, etc.)

To the buyers, however, they probably see them as functionally identical to DLC. From their perspective, it's not unlike a microtransaction, where for some fee, some long, tedious process is circumvented for them. (I know for Shiny Hunters, this is neither long nor tedious, but it is for the people who want the reward without the effort.) Considering how much money the microtransaction model is making, it's no wonder that these guys are earning a killing off of it.
I'm more surprised Game Freak not trying something in the legal field. Like, I'm no lawyer (work for some though lol) but they are basically profiting from their brand. One could try arguing the shady line of "they are selling the service" but it's still too shady and questionable.
 
I'm more surprised Game Freak not trying something in the legal field. Like, I'm no lawyer (work for some though lol) but they are basically profiting from their brand. One could try arguing the shady line of "they are selling the service" but it's still too shady and questionable.
It's probably a pretty hard thing to combat. First of all, there's not much proof the pokemon themselves are hacked. I mean, yeah the ones named after sites are super obvious but theoretically someone could shiny hunt something and give it a nickname like that.

Secondly they're not actually selling Nintendo property. They don't pirate any games nor do they use Nintendo's copyrighted characters or anything to sell their own stuff. Nintendo's not missing out on any money because of them, so I doubt much can be done against it court-wise.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Yeah, I've been doing quite some max raids recently to get Dynamax Mushrooms and there's a ton of people using shinies. Often with nicknames of sites. And honestly, it's sad. One it devaluates shinies which as a shiny hunter really isn't fun and might make me seem like a hacker to others since I often use shinies myself. And two, it's sad for the people who actually paid for them. All it requires is patience to hunt one.
It's probably a pretty hard thing to combat. First of all, there's not much proof the pokemon themselves are hacked. I mean, yeah the ones named after sites are super obvious but theoretically someone could shiny hunt something and give it a nickname like that.

Secondly they're not actually selling Nintendo property. They don't pirate any games nor do they use Nintendo's copyrighted characters or anything to sell their own stuff. Nintendo's not missing out on any money because of them, so I doubt much can be done against it court-wise.
Not to defend them, but from their perspective, they're really proud of it and showing it off to other people. "Look at what I got! Isn't this so cool?" There is a lot more of them than I thought though, and usually, this sort of mentality is something little kids have.

If this is true, however, it brings up another issue: little kids using their parents' money without their permission to buy from shady sources. That ties in with your second comment; if Nintendo, Game Freak, or The Pokémon Company International were to take this to court, THAT would be the ground to stand on, because selling online transactions to bolster a video game's experience to little kids, who don't know better about spending money, IS illegal in many countries. (Most notably, even Disney, which engages in some not-so-nice business practices, has a strong stance against selling loot boxes to minors, for instance. The incident with Star Wars: Battlefront II and their loot boxes happened primarily because Disney stepped in and stopped EA from doing so any further.)

Prior to this legislation, about 5 years back I'd say, I was at an airport waiting to pick up a family member. In front of me was this little kid, maybe about 5 or 6 years old, playing a Talking Tom game on his tablet. He was playing some driving minigame, and every three times he failed, a menu popped up asking him if he wanted to pay $5 to get another three chances. He was at it for the whole three hours I was waiting there (said family member left and took a bus back without me noticing her, but that's a separate story). I lost count of the number of times he paid $5 to try again, but it was obvious he didn't understand the concept of money, and he had to have easily spent at least a hundred dollars of his parents' money in this way. There was another instance in which a little girl in the UK spent about £1,500 in one day playing Gameloft's My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic city-building game without her parents' knowledge.

I don't know how much these Pokémon hackers are charging per Pokémon, but if they're making a living off of it, it has to be at least $25 per Pokémon, since they also have to make contact with the client and arrange the trades. If so, a full team is $150. Imagine all these kids contacting these people every day and giving them their parents' credit card information. That's dangerous.

(This is, of course, assuming they can be found. These people would rather keep anonymous, for obvious reasons. However, the fact that a point of contact online is required means they can be traced, which law enforcement should be able to do easily.)

I'm more surprised Game Freak not trying something in the legal field. Like, I'm no lawyer (work for some though lol) but they are basically profiting from their brand. One could try arguing the shady line of "they are selling the service" but it's still too shady and questionable.
Legality of little kids spending their parents' money without understanding that money is finite aside, there is also something of a cultural divide between Japan and the west in how troublemakers in online games are to be handled. Here, we are used to people on the staff, as moderators and administrators, directly stepping in when trouble starts. In Japan, troublemakers in online games are expected to be stopped by the community itself; their moderators and administrators are there to solve problems in the game itself (such as glitches or infrastructure issues) rather than player behavior.

One example is a story arc in Gundam Build Fighters Try, a series where Gundam fights are conducted as an MMO game. Our group of heroes encounter a rival group who are blatantly cheating. They're clobbered at first but get their rematch later in which they choose to battle them head-on, cheats and all. Not once does the thought cross any of their minds to report this to a mod or an admin; indeed, when defeated, the group stops cheating under the idea that they weren't really giving them an edge.

Despite traveling to other parts of the world to understand their culture, their geography, their architecture, and their flora and fauna, Game Freak is at its core a very Japanese company. The Pokémon Company is an even more Japanese company, being run by highly traditional old men. There is no way Game Freak does not know about this activity going on, but even if they want to stop them, there's a good chance TPC's executives will deny them saying that the players can respond by blackballing and cold-shouldering them.

I suspect that this is why Game Freak has done nothing regarding stuff like people distributing Bad Eggs to render other people's games unplayable. The idea is that it'll go away on its own. The people with the power to stop this don't realize that what these guys are doing is more like gold farming and equipment farming in MMOs. They're not going to stop for as long as they remain profitable or until they get caught by the authorities.

Incidents that occur in western online gaming that the players themselves are helpless to stop, like the World of Warcraft pandemic or the Lord British Postulate, are very rare occurrences in online games open only to the Japanese.
 
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Pokefan_1987

Avid Pokemon TCG Card collector.
I don't keep them when i happen to get one in a wonder trade. But hey a free master ball or rare mega stones in older games hard to pass up and you can use those extra master balls on a legit shiny later. Then i just release these hacked mons to avoid bans.
 

Spider-Phoenix

#ChespinGang
I do the same. Take the items and release the pokémon.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
I don't keep them when i happen to get one in a wonder trade. But hey a free master ball or rare mega stones in older games hard to pass up and you can use those extra master balls on a legit shiny later. Then i just release these hacked mons to avoid bans.
It's too bad they don't give me other rare items I might actually want more of, like PP Maxes, or Lansat and Starf Berries in games where I can't grow my own.
 

TheTrueRman

Amateur Breeder and Legend Collector
I don't keep them when i happen to get one in a wonder trade. But hey a free master ball or rare mega stones in older games hard to pass up and you can use those extra master balls on a legit shiny later. Then i just release these hacked mons to avoid bans.
I had that happen a few times, unfortunately I would re wonder trade it item and all in hopes the next guy would take the item and dump the mon. Better i just release both alltogether in the future.
 
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Captain Jigglypuff

*On Vacation. Go Away!*
Pokémon Facebook Groups are full of players that openly offer cloned and hacked Pokémon. The thing is a lot of these Groups specifically state that no illegal activity or discussions about such activity would be tolerated and when I pointed this out to one user, everyone reacted to me by using the laughing emojis and called me “stupid” and claimed it wasn’t illegal or against the group’s rules. The OP even stated he planned on using his hacked Pokémon online and I was telling him that could not only lead him to being banned from playing Pokémon online but also his entire Switch as there was this one YouTuber that got completely banned for hacking New Horizons by seeing what weird things could be possible if you changed certain aspects of the game and he wasn’t even using that copy of the game as his main Island.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
I had that happen a few times, unfortunately I would re wonder trade it item and all in hopes the next guy would take the item and dump the mon. Better i just release both alltogether in the future.
Yeah, it's best to release them, NOT trade them away. Don't inadvertently give them more publicity than they already do.

Pokémon Facebook Groups are full of players that openly offer cloned and hacked Pokémon. The thing is a lot of these Groups specifically state that no illegal activity or discussions about such activity would be tolerated and when I pointed this out to one user, everyone reacted to me by using the laughing emojis and called me “stupid” and claimed it wasn’t illegal or against the group’s rules. The OP even stated he planned on using his hacked Pokémon online and I was telling him that could not only lead him to being banned from playing Pokémon online but also his entire Switch as there was this one YouTuber that got completely banned for hacking New Horizons by seeing what weird things could be possible if you changed certain aspects of the game and he wasn’t even using that copy of the game as his main Island.
The problem is that nothing is being done to catch them--if there was more aggressive action taking place, you can bet they would neither be quite as open and brazen as they are, nor would they be as easy to find. A law without bite might as well not be a law at all.

That being said, you were talking to brick walls there. It's you against everyone else in that group, especially since, based on what you say, they do some of their things specifically to get a rise out of other people.
 
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