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How do you expect the writers to go about writing the 8th gen?

UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
So we are talking now about comedy in Pokemon? Something that is totally subjective with everyone having a different taste of what they find funny or not.

People wanting more focus on that instead of a bigger focus on storytelling, battles, deep characters etc. is shocking me, especially since people like to use SM as the prime example. I just can't say it enough: Comedy may makes a series more funnier or lively, but can't save it from having a crappy plot, battles etc.

Pokemon is a series where goals and battles related to them are the main quest. They should focus on that instead of giving us slapstick faces not everyone is going to like. If I want to laugh, then I rather watch some other anime which do the job much better. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against a little bit of comedy here and there, but then make it situational and not forced.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
So we are talking now about comedy in Pokemon? Something that is totally subjective with everyone having a different taste of what they find funny or not.

We're not just talking about comedy, we're comparing the execution of a comedy heavy work against a drama/action heavy one, and how either can have the same amount of substance and maturity.

Pokemon is a series where goals and battles related to them are the main quest.

I think that is a problem in itself though, since a lot of times in previous series, the show became too centric around goals and battles, sometimes at the cost of other key elements like characterisation and basic plot flow. Ash by XY was more or less nothing BUT goals and battles, he was a rather empty character that was driven by formula like a chess piece. SM Ash is comedy heavy, but at least there are many episodes HE drives the plot, sometimes purely by personality.
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
We're not just talking about comedy, we're comparing the execution of a comedy heavy work against a drama/action heavy one, and how either can have the same amount of substance and maturity.
Yeah, this would work if SM's comedy were not horrible.

I find it funny when people criticize XY Ash for being so serious and have no personality apart from someone focused on his goal but still idolize Adventures's protagonists like Red who are the same. It is contradictory.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Yeah, this would work if SM's comedy were not horrible.

I find it funny when people criticize XY Ash for being so serious and have no personality apart from someone focused on his goal but still idolize Adventures's protagonists like Red who are the same. It is contradictory.

Subjective, and I have not read Adventures so I can't make any debate on that.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Also, if we're doing films that can fit into the canon of the main anime rather than an AU, could we please have a more proactive main cast? It seems like Ash and Co do nothing of significance that gives us characterization or advances their own arc. In fact, I'm sure the walking exposition would be more useful as a protagonist because it seems they do have an emotional stake rather than the magical tourist trope Ash and Co seem to play.
 
I personally thought the seriousness in XYZ was a breath of freshness. I consider XYZ to be better than XY because of all the development going on.

I don't understand why people think seriousness is a bad thing? Shounen is arguably the most popular anime genre and when it's done right it was way more value than a comedy- centered slice of life show, at least to me. Definitely more popular.

If the next season hardlines seriousness even more than XYZ and does it well, it's definetly not a bad thing.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
I personally thought the seriousness in XYZ was a breath of freshness. I consider XYZ to be better than XY because of all the development going on.

I'm going to say what I said to all the people who said SM was a breath of fresh air: fresh only lasts so long. Sorry to sound blunt.

I don't understand why people think seriousness is a bad thing? Shounen is arguably the most popular anime genre and when it's done right it was way more value than a comedy- centered slice of life show, at least to me. Definitely more popular.

If the next season hardlines seriousness even more than XYZ and does it well, it's definetly not a bad thing.

It's not that seriousness is a bad thing. Like I said, actions need to have weight behind them. XY and XYZ sold the illusion of having weight behind the actions, something I didn't buy because of "fate" (TPTB) and the fact that the gravitas was unearned or misplaced. Take Battling at Full Volume when Ash comes in at the end. In theory, Ash's entry should have been a moment of triumph, but the deus ex machina ("Ash heals quicker than normal people because willpower?") and the fact that it was noted straw losers TRio removed that weight. Meanwhile, SM lacks gravitas and weight even when it should (Lusamine, Lusamine, Lusamine!)
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I personally thought the seriousness in XYZ was a breath of freshness. I consider XYZ to be better than XY because of all the development going on.

I don't understand why people think seriousness is a bad thing? Shounen is arguably the most popular anime genre and when it's done right it was way more value than a comedy- centered slice of life show, at least to me. Definitely more popular.

If the next season hardlines seriousness even more than XYZ and does it well, it's definetly not a bad thing.
It would cool the Pokemon anime were really competing against the likes of Dragon Ball, Boruto and so on...

But yeah, I knew SM would have issues and I was critical about XY(Z) too. To me, it's mainly about the "status quo" of the show, aka priotizing Ash, Pikachu, Team Rocket and some popular regional Pokemons over everyone else. So I doubt they would fix that kind of issue in Gen 8.

I took the fanwork route because I didn't want to believe anything from the anime producer/writers. In fact, I'm more delighted to see some creative fans doing a better job than them, when it's about writing the show. I think they were going too soft for such as successful franchise.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I dunno, SM can at least use different plots to make the cast seem more proactive and like they're a driving force of the plot. As mentioned with examples like above, XYZ and a lot of previous series couldn't go a single plot without formula or plot armour making it a simple act with Team Rocket or something else making it ultra simple. The height of the twerps' activity almost every third act was commanding their Pokemon's signature attack once or twice. EVERY SINGLE EPISODE. SM at least does different plots, and not only that, plays some of them all the way through without any sort of cop out or 'out of jail free card' to make the same old same old. We see Ash doing clever things every once in a while, or a full bonding moment without any mood killer like Team Rocket. What's more, more of these plots revolve around the cast or their background in some way, not a random COTD.

General episode flow of pre-SM:
* Cast meets COTD.
* Cast tries to help but fails to be effective for the large part.
* Team Rocket intervenes.
* Twerps or the COTD use very basic attacks to win, if the challenge requires more effort than that, they wait until plot armour stops them instead.
* Everything is now fine. Twerps leave.

General episode flow of SM:
ANYTHING!

While SM is utterly random in quality and effectiveness, it's still a vast improvement over the standard formula, which revolved around their protagonists having the most bare bones and generic involvement possible and barely driving the plot through their own characters at all. OS and BW was them TRYING to make the old formula hold up and be versatile all the time, but you could tell they couldn't keep that up for too long and ultimately things fell apart or ran stale.
 
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Yuugis Black Magician

Namaikina Imouto
So we are talking now about comedy in Pokemon? Something that is totally subjective with everyone having a different taste of what they find funny or not.

People wanting more focus on that instead of a bigger focus on storytelling, battles, deep characters etc. is shocking me, especially since people like to use SM as the prime example. I just can't say it enough: Comedy may makes a series more funnier or lively, but can't save it from having a crappy plot, battles etc.

Pokemon is a series where goals and battles related to them are the main quest. They should focus on that instead of giving us slapstick faces not everyone is going to like. If I want to laugh, then I rather watch some other anime which do the job much better. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against a little bit of comedy here and there, but then make it situational and not forced.

A series reflects the series director. Sun & Moon is Tomiyasu Daiki's series, just as Generations was also his series. Pokemon is a franchise that often changes its series directors and the tone and feel changes along with it. In other words, Pokemon is anything and everything when it is those things. Right now it is a series about fun, comedy and slowing down to appreciate nature.

Do you not have other interests? The people who make art do. Those influences color their color different colors.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
I just hope they won't repeat something like what the SM series did to Lusamine and Lillie's relationship. As someone who suffered child abuse i was glad the games were showing kids that our parents aren't always right and that we shouldn't allow toxic relationships to affect our self esteem and confidence. But the anime's staff instead decided that child abuse shouldn't be talked about it in this series, therefore, making Lillie's speech turn from a inspirational speech for abused children everywhere to Lillie just complaining that Lusamine is overly affectionate...
 
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AshxSatoshi

Ice Aurelia
I just hope they won't repeat something like what the SM series did to Lusamine and Lillie's relationship. As someone who suffered child abuse i was glad the games were showing kids that our parents aren't always right and that we shouldn't allow toxic relationships to affect our self esteem and confidence. But the anime's staff instead decided that child abuse shouldn't be talked about it in this series, therefore, making Lillie's speech turn from a inspirational speech for abused children everywhere to Lillie just complaining that Lusamine is overly affectionate...
First of all sorry for your childhood trauma, no child deserves abuse. Secondly Lillie’s problem with Lusamine was just as valid as her game incarnations. Do I like how it was handled? Nope. However I do understand. Lusamine was so caught up in her work that she didn’t even notice that one her corrupted workers caused her daughter to have a trumatic event in her life scaring her. If that isn’t childhood neglect (practically abuse) it’s definitely tip toeing around it. Lusamine is just as neglectful to her children in the anime as she is in the games just for different reasons.
 

Remix2

Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree. They're nothing alike. BW had it's moments where it was serious, specifically it started out pretty serious before reverting back to light heartedness. DP gave itself episodes to relax and wind down, something that XYZ didn't do thus why it has the least amount of filler. Also, every saga besides SM (or OS) has barely any funny faces and slapstick. That's exclusive to SM unless you wanna bring up those Rotom wrecking havoc as an appliance episodes.

And for what it's worth, I used to hate DP (specifically the 2nd half) back when it was airing until I went back and rewatched it. Even then, DP has
it's horrendous flaws like TR appearing everyday and it's slow pacing. DP was only serious when it needed to be, like all the series but I think some people felt XY was overtly serious, really meaning XYZ, because it didn't have enough moments where we saw the group just have fun like in that Ash and Serena's first date episode and even then, the group itself didn't have much chemistry together (outside of Ash). It did feel like XYZ took itself way too seriously but XY felt pretty normal.

Even then we still have non serious episodes like the crossdressing episode, It just that they want to make the main stuff like the team flare and ash greninja more focused which I rather have them focus on the main plot point of the arc and not what happen with the af arc where they put random sol filler in it for not reason and not focusing on stuff that need focus like what in god name is faba motivation is and explaining where the dem crystal came form.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I just hope they won't repeat something like what the SM series did to Lusamine and Lillie's relationship. As someone who suffered child abuse i was glad the games were showing kids that our parents aren't always right and that we shouldn't allow toxic relationships to affect our self esteem and confidence. But the anime's staff instead decided that child abuse shouldn't be talked about it in this series, therefore, making Lillie's speech turn from a inspirational speech for abused children everywhere to Lillie just complaining that Lusamine is overly affectionate...

First I am sorry for your experiences, and hope you have got yourself in a better situation now.

The sad thing is the anime ALWAYS dilutes it's villain plots of any relatable or remotely three dimensional scenarios. There's only cartoon good and evil in the anime. Even in the XYZ arc they took out any complexities concerning Lysandre's theories to make him a generic super shadowy and evil dictator. The AF plot in itself just looked like something the writers just couldn't be bothered with this time round, looking at how rushed through it was.

Even then we still have non serious episodes like the crossdressing episode, It just that they want to make the main stuff like the team flare and ash greninja more focused which I rather have them focus on the main plot point of the arc and not what happen with the af arc where they put random sol filler in it for not reason and not focusing on stuff that need focus like what in god name is faba motivation is and explaining where the dem crystal came form.

Truthfully I think XYZ was just as rampant with unrelated formula and filler, just they were smart enough to hint to Flare at the very start of the season and then hold off the main arcs till as late as possible, compared to the AF arc that just got on with it right off the bat. During the in-between period (which must have been at least 30 episodes), Flare didn't actually have much involvement at all besides their battle for Z1 against Team Rocket (which sadly looked like it might have been an ongoing rivalry to keep up Flare's background involvement like with Plasma in BW, but of course the twerps needed their padding villain for every damn episode so that wasn't gonna happen).
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I just hope they won't repeat something like what the SM series did to Lusamine and Lillie's relationship. As someone who suffered child abuse i was glad the games were showing kids that our parents aren't always right and that we shouldn't allow toxic relationships to affect our self esteem and confidence. But the anime's staff instead decided that child abuse shouldn't be talked about it in this series, therefore, making Lillie's speech turn from a inspirational speech for abused children everywhere to Lillie just complaining that Lusamine is overly affectionate...
No she didn't. Lusamine was still portrayed as a bad mother in the anime even though it isn't a copy and paste reenactment of the games' version. Lillie was being treated the same way she was treated the last time Lusamine saw her which was like a little 5 years old. Lusamine might not be blatantly insane and cruel but she has been shown to be inconsiderate of Lillie's feelings (evolving Clefairy without informing Lillie which she is still mad at her to this day), neglectful by not noticing Lillie's fear of Pokemon (pointed out by Gladion), treating her like a baby (which embarrasses and annoys her), and sending her off to be raised by the house staff since she puts work before her children, as well as Lillie telling her that she doesn't like her. Just because Lillie looks back on a few good memories with Lusamine and wants to save her, it doesn't erase all the bad things Lusamine did to her and possibly Gladion. It's only natural that Lillie wouldn't want her mother seriously hurt or killed. Their relationship hasn't changed much as they went back to where they were after the Aether Foundation arc. The child abuse is more subtle rather than blatant. Lusamine's forgetfulness when confronted about Lillie is still a form of negligence. Lusamine not caring where Gladion has been is a form of abuse. You could even say the day Snowball was hatched and Lillie took her out to get to know each other more is something that Lillie wished she's gotten from her mother judging by how attentive and caring she is towards her Pokemon.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Lusamine might not be blatantly insane and cruel but she has been shown to be inconsiderate of Lillie's feelings (evolving Clefairy without informing Lillie which she is still mad at her to this day), neglectful by not noticing Lillie's fear of Pokemon (pointed out by Gladion), treating her like a baby (which embarrasses and annoys her), and sending her off to be raised by the house staff since she puts work before her children, as well as Lillie telling her that she doesn't like her.
I never understood this as the argument for Lusamine being horrible; it's been clearly portrayed that Clefairy was Lusamine's Pokemon that Lillie nevertheless had a bond with, but it wasn't hers to make the decision on, especially since Clefairy had no issues with evolving at all.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
While on the topic of abusing children, what was Faba's motivation? Seriously, I get the whole low gravitas stance SM has, but what exactly was his motive?
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
While on the topic of abusing children, what was Faba's motivation? Seriously, I get the whole low gravitas stance SM has, but what exactly was his motive?
His motivation was apparently to give Lusamine what she wanted iirc, but he ended up being a generic villain like all the other villains in the past series
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
His motivation was apparently to give Lusamine what she wanted iirc, but he ended up being a generic villain like all the other villains in the past series

Well, better add him to the list of villains who lack or lost the weight in their actions.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
His motivation was apparently to give Lusamine what she wanted iirc, but he ended up being a generic villain like all the other villains in the past series
That's exactly what it was...it was just completely forgotten after he did it. In reality there was no actual antagonist in the Aether arc, unless one counts Nihilego.
 
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