mehmeh1
Not thinking twice!
IIRC it was because he wanted to keep his job
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How do you expect the writers to go about writing the 8th gen?
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satopi
Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
It was a dick move. And again, it's an example of Lusamine not taking into consideration of Lillie's feelings or input. Lusamine didn't care how she felt and strsight up forgot as though it was nothing. She does that all the time when someone brings up how she treats Lillie. It may have been an insignificant event to you, from an outsider's prespective, but it wasn't for Lillie. Just because Clefairy is technically Lusamine's, it doesn't justify the action. Honestly, It's selfish and cruel for her to do that. Downplaying the action and minimizing how Lillie felt at the time is just as worse. Lillie loved Clefairy and as a little kid, she may have felt that with Clefairy evolving into Clefable that she felt alienated in a way. Like their relationship isn't the same anymore or Clefable became a completely different person that she didn't feel as attached to it because it's now foreign to her. Regardless, it hurt and affected Lillie a lot to the point that she held a grudge towards her mother for some time. That goes to show that it was a past traumatic experience.
Also note, she sleeps with a Clefairy doll and takes it with her sometimes so her bond with her past Clefairy was very special to her.
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UltimateNinja
Praying for the holy relics
The core factors for quality measurements such as story, characters etc. remains even if the director or the direction they want to go with the series changes and the writer having new ideas and imaginations. That's no excuse for SM (as an example) having a lack of battles, pacing issues etc. and that's why you can criticize the writer/producer for how they're handling the anime.
The problem of SM simply is that they rather try to hook up the audience with comedy and the typical slice of life stuff and people liking it depends of if it hits their taste regarding comedy. For people who want to see the series because of it's story and battles (so the most important things for a (shonen-) anime with battles), then all the focus on that slice of life stuff they're focusing on is going to be in the way of that.
It wouldn't be that much of a problem if all the comedy stuff is situational and if the writer know how to use them properly and not to often and them still focusing on what's still the most important things for a battle orientated anime.
But it wasn't Lillie's Clefairy...
Everything you're saying sounds to me like "It's a past traumatic experience because Lillie didn't like it." But if it was never Lillie's decision to make, because it wasn't her partner, in the first place, it sounds more like a petulant child whining that she had her favorite toy taken from her, not like she had something essential ripped from her.
We have the scantest of details on her and Clefairy's relationship that it's such a weak point to hold against her mother and seems more like the whinings of a brat.
satopi
Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I hope Faba doesn't appear and if he does, he got demoted or fired or something. His magical girl act gives me nightmares. I shudder just thinking about it.
I think he was trying to get Nebby to activate Solgaleo to get into the Ultra Space... something like that.
I think he was trying to get Nebby to activate Solgaleo to get into the Ultra Space... something like that.
So? Why are you invalidating Lillie's feelings just because Clefairy was Lusamine's? It doesn't change how she felt. She was a little kid, not old enough to have a Pokemon of her own. Just because she couldn't have a say on it evolving, it still had an impact on her. It came off as a surprise to her and she didn't take it well. It may seem petty but it still hurts Lillie. She didn't even apologize or acknowledge the event.
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AznKei
Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
I would like a Pokemon equivalent of Marvel Cinematic Universe's Killmonger as a villain. A character motivated by revenge because he unfairly lost someone he cared by the rule of law, and he has to struggle all the way to be on top alone, unlike the protagonist with his privileges. But Pokemon is too lighthearted for this kind of stuff.
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AshxSatoshi
Ice Aurelia
Which doesn’t invalidate Lillie’s feelings. At the end of the day Lusamine didn’t justify why she wanted Clefairy to evolve herself. Her only comeback was that Lillie’s reason to keep it unevolved “made no sense”. If we had proper justification why Lusamine wanted an evolution... it would be easier to side with her. Not to mention she didn’t even acknowledge Lillie’s feelings or try to reason with her. She just went straight to the defense. You capture more flies with honey not vinegar. And we’re not going to go into how then anime practically implied Lusamine did it behind Lillie’s back on purpose while she was away.
satopi
Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Exactly. That's how I see it and it's a natural reaction to be upset about it. How could Lillie be a brat when she's been anything but one? One event that she didn't act like a good girl and she's automatically a whiny brat? Pfft, yeah right. Lillie has always been a sweet child and Lusamine NEVER addresssed Lillie's PTSD and is one of the reasons why her issues stayed with her for years. Lillie had to resolve those issues herself. She's a strong character internally and strives for self improvement. The only time we've seen Lusamine shown as a good mother is when she pushed Lillie from getting captured by Nihelgo. Other times, it focused on her inattentiveness and being called out for her mistreatment. Could it had been handled way better? Yes but I'd take this over them trying to convey a sugary sweet mother daughter relationship with zero problems that never occurred in the games.
Doesn't this ignore the fact that she is Lillie's parent, and it's implied she did this long ago. Are we supposed to say that a parent must justify everything they do to a young child? It was her Pokemon; she wanted to evolve it; Clefairy wanted to evolve. What Lillie feels and what Lusamine's explanations are is irrelevant really. Or at least it's an attempt to force sympathy for Lillie on the viewer that can fall flat.
While there are other arguments for Lusamine being neglectful, I feel that's the weakest one of them all, since it feels more like a child crying that they no longer get to play with mommy's jewelry because she decided to sell it for her own reasons.
AshxSatoshi
Ice Aurelia
That is supporting the “because I said so” mentality that most parents use today. Why is so hard for parents to explain their reasoning? Let’s say for example: Gladion purposely hid the Nihilego thing assumingly to protect Lillie’s feelings and not trigger any repressed memories. He had his reasoning for his action and it was properly explained or at least implied. Why couldn’t Lusamine just explain why she wanted Clefairy to evolve? Every action has a reason. It just seems backwards and comes off as she just wanted to evolve it because. The most she could of done was talked to Lillie and explain the situation on how she was planning to evolve Clairfy and leave it to Lillie to react. Did she do that? No. She waited until Lillie was away and did it sneakily.
Not to mention plenty of characters have acted “bratty “with their mother especially the main heroine from the last series, Dawn at some points in DP and Ash. I can understand both sides of the argument but to say Lillie is completely at fault and was act like a spoiled brat is kind of inaccurate in my opinion. Lusamine sneakily evolved a Pokémon behind her back and continued justifying it instead of addressing Lillie’s feelings like a mature mother.
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satopi
Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
But a Pokemon isn't some toy or pretty jewelry to play with and get bored a minute later. And Lillie never treated it as such. That Clefairy was probably the only thing she bonded with and like @AshxSatoshi said, Lusamine should've done what a mature and empathetic mother would do and explain why she evolved Clefairy and wait to how Lillie would react. People doubt children but they can somewhat grasp the concept if explained clearly. Lillie wouldn't have even held a grudge for this long had her mother actually approached her and was attentive to her (being aware that she was upset and noticed how much she played with Clefairy), but she wasn't. I already explained to you why the Clefairy incident is another example that showed Lusamine is neglectful. We already know Lusamine is Lillie's parent and to say how Lillie felt is irrelevant and Lusamine shouldn't have to explain herself just because she's the parent/she owned Clefairy is borderline shoving the abuse under the rug by dismissing the victim, Lillie's experience. How could Lillie be whining and acting like a brat when she only brought it up once and that was right after Lusamine returned after so long?
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Honestly I think it will be better if Lusamine was behind the plan the whole thing and faba served as Her proxy’s.
The sad thing is that, while the AF arc was a complete castration of the games story, it was still an improvement over the anime's usual villain arc, simply for the fact the protagonists had personal investment in it besides 'heroes saving the world'. The action and pacing were haphazardous, but at the same time, I liked the bonding among the twerps, and the fact the non-travelling premise meant they all had to be proactive in demonstrating their care for Lillie and what she was going through. It actually felt like their story.
In nearly every other villain arc, the twerps tend to just be passing through, with the villains' actions more generically plotted or tied to a guest character or Pokemon. The Meowth arc in BW was perhaps the one exception and even then arguably not as much as it could have been given TR are meant to be Ash's arch enemies.
In nearly every other villain arc, the twerps tend to just be passing through, with the villains' actions more generically plotted or tied to a guest character or Pokemon. The Meowth arc in BW was perhaps the one exception and even then arguably not as much as it could have been given TR are meant to be Ash's arch enemies.
MidnightMelody
Hopeful for Gen 8
I just hope everything Gen 7 is left in Gen 7 and nobody looks back. I really miss the days of OS-DP since it actually felt like progression. I mean it could be said that it went into XY too but BW halted certain stuff. But no matter how much you dislike BW at least it was not as bad as what SUMO did. You can't literally change the genre of a series. Dragonball Super can have comedy since the series was always action and comedy since Day 1. While Z did have more more of a focus on action the comedy still existed and the action did not over power anything. Sadly in SUMO the comedy is all in your face and disgusting. If they want comedy ok but don't change the entire vibe of the show. They turned Pokemon into a slice of life and the issue with that is SoLs don't tent to go past like 24 episodes. Yet here we seem to be going +100 and it gets old very fast. Not to mention that Ash's friends and him seem so faker this series.
Gen 8 needs a good balance. Action,plot and good friend bonds. I mean without knowing anything about Gen 8 it is hard to say how it will be done. HOWEVER and this might not be what everyone wants. I want a reboot of Ash. Like a legit reboot. Turn him into a noob and wipe the slate clean. Before you come at me for that hear me out. It is a switch from handheld to home console so a switch like this could work. Make it so Ash makes legit progression since they are so ugh about a new protag. I'd actually be ok with this myself.
Gen 8 needs a good balance. Action,plot and good friend bonds. I mean without knowing anything about Gen 8 it is hard to say how it will be done. HOWEVER and this might not be what everyone wants. I want a reboot of Ash. Like a legit reboot. Turn him into a noob and wipe the slate clean. Before you come at me for that hear me out. It is a switch from handheld to home console so a switch like this could work. Make it so Ash makes legit progression since they are so ugh about a new protag. I'd actually be ok with this myself.
They should not abolish EVERYTHING from Gen 7, that's counter productive. Sure it's kinda stagnant and offbeat compared to the other series in terms of genre, but it has it's up points from them, it's more character driven and it's filler episodes aren't NEARLY as repetitive, and while more development in teams and goals should indeed be more recurrent, I like it's trying to make it not the be all end all way to make a character stand out here, there's still a little thing like, you know, personality. Sure SM Ash is a bit over the top, but at least now he isn't a sheet of cardboard unless he's battling, he can be put into other scenarios and react or even drive them in distinctive ways, and doesn't need cheap plot devices like Team Rocket to cop out on them nearly as often.
Earlier series such as XY proved that the old formula was running stale and almost castrating how much its cast and plot could stand out. Moderation is the key here. Yes, next time round, keep better check on battles and dynamic development, but keep SM's more diverse storylines and more vibrant method of padding it all and making the undertones and in betweens still entertaining.
Even then, in some places, SM is merely expanding on ideas other series like BW had, like downplaying the formula for more twerp-centric storylines. Things have to spruce up every once in a while otherwise the writers fall into a rut.
Earlier series such as XY proved that the old formula was running stale and almost castrating how much its cast and plot could stand out. Moderation is the key here. Yes, next time round, keep better check on battles and dynamic development, but keep SM's more diverse storylines and more vibrant method of padding it all and making the undertones and in betweens still entertaining.
Even then, in some places, SM is merely expanding on ideas other series like BW had, like downplaying the formula for more twerp-centric storylines. Things have to spruce up every once in a while otherwise the writers fall into a rut.
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keepitsimple
site of lies
Just because you don't personally like Sun and Moon doesn't mean it should be treated like it never happened lol
satopi
Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
You can't ignore one saga in favor of the other. Majority of of the BW hate stems from Ash being off his game but his character never changed. You could even say they used Ash as the model to teach little kids how to use a Pokeball and such and starting the Ash is dumb gag. I don't think it was meant to be as serious as some made it out, I mean he was super excited in a completely new region encountering a completely new Pokemon and wasn't thinking. BW didn't halt "certain stuff". If you take solely on Ash failing horribly in BW as to why it stopped it's progression then you're missing out on how even in BW, Ash was training his Pokemon, trying out different battling methods like triple battling, switching Pokemon in battle, and the like, and he wasn't a complete noob throughout. Ash probably wasn't taking battling as serious as he was in DP and put more attention into his bonds with his friends and Pokemon more so. He told himself (and Pikachu) before BW ended that they was going to try harder next time. How could SM be oh so terrible when it found a balance between Ash keeping his personality while at the same time being competent, kind of like how he was in AG and DP. BW suffered from trying out new ideas that didn't turn out as well as it could've been, plans that were being built up having to be softened because of the 2011 tsunami-earthquake tragedy, and the focus were on character relationships than action. It showed even in the Gyms.
BW, as well as the rest of the previous sagas, were what Pokemon was which is a light hearted, fun anime. XY(&Z) were the one who changed up it's genre and took itself too seriously at some point, but it doesn't change that it had some good going for it. Sure XY was light hearted at times, more so than XYZ, but it still added emphasis on the elements of shonen/shojo with a dramatized touch that wasn't prevalent in past sagas.
So was Pokemon but the comedy went back to being actually funny than the stale bread we got in XY(&Z).
How so? The only "disgusting" joke I saw in SM was Ash puking sparkles on Pikachu. Or are you thinking disgusting as in in one scene, one of the Stoutland pulled down Ash's pants as he was thinking about the old Stoutland that took care of Litten and Mallow was peeking? If you're talking about the various faces, sure it's in your face but it ain't disgusting in any way. I appreciate the animators for having fun and utilizing their talents than to animate only their mouths moving with barely anything to show visually what emotion they're expressing outside of their thin eyebrows slightly moving in a different position.
Pokemon has always had comedy and SM didn't change the entire vibe of the show when it's focus has always been about discovering new Pokemon, having fun adventures, and creating strong bonds. If anything, SM emphasized the entire vibe of the show by putting Ash into a region thst prides itself on showing that humans and Pokemon live in harmony.
Ash and friends aren't talking about school and doing other mundane things to entertain the audience. Ash is staying in one place for once so the writers aren't neglecting this opportunity to present normal life in the Pokemon world. It's still Pokemon, we're just seeing what would happen if Ash had a home to go to instead of sleeping in the woods everyday and always on the move since there are barely any transit options in other large regions.
How are they fake?
B-Best.... Wishes...??
Jeal
Well-Known Member
''went back to being actually funny''? There is nothing funny about SM. The comedy is horrible. OS is funny.
satopi
Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
The comedy is subjective. I was amused and actually laughed out loud a lot more than I ever had in Pokemon since BW. You may think the comedy is horrible but I'd take it over the forced gags we've had in the past that were supposed to be funny but wasn't.