How do you expect the writers to go about writing the 8th gen?

[DatsRight]

Can you please stop asserting this? While Clemont is one thing, he is a Gym Leader and outside of a callback to their first battle in the last episode that we don't even know the results of, we never definitely saw Clemont matching Ash outside of his ace. (Plus, it's implied that Clemont is Ash's consistent training partner). And everyone's already proven wrong your weird idea that Serena was on par with Ash ad nauseum.

It doesn't change that Pikachu was still putting up WAY more of a fight than any previous opponent Serena had and she randomly had the competence to put up good strategies and manuevers with Braixen resisting far more offence than she ever had to before.

It's hardly the only example in the show anyway, especially since all the other characters have to finish their arc in one series and Ash stays. It's part what makes Ash's ambitions even more futile because plenty of characters will abruptly be given the role of a badass through pure plot armour, often with him getting worfed to assist it. Even Team Rocket can suddenly gain the strength of ten Ashes when the plot befits it. It's easy to feel bad for Ash really, his is the only free game agenda (because being the main gimmick I doubt they're willing to make any protagonist inherently BAD at battling) so he's the one most often stuck sucking or getting outshone at everything to make someone else look good.

My sentiments have nothing to do with how the Alola league turns out. My sentiments are about the tone of the anime:

• Tobias: "He was stronger!"
• Cameron: "He was stronger?"
• Alain: "He was stronger."

The anime likes to push the message that losing is okay and it happens to the best of us, but with the added message of "he was stronger" as a justification for Ash losing rather than any flaw in our protagonist's skill. Sure, there are things that will always be out of his control. He can't control the number of opponents in a league and their quality of training, but he most certainly can control how he trains and what moves to play. What I want in Gen 8 is for Ash's league loss to be treated as his own fault and not a matter of fate.

Then again, fate might not be a bad thing. After all, the anime has finally caught on that Ash's journey is control by fate.

I guess it's because they want to keep SOME sort of balance due to the former case, and show that he is relatively good. Him making the same mistakes and losing more through incompetence than the fact his opponent was just THAT good makes it harder to maintain a balance on his experience, and BW already shown how protective the fanbase is of that. SM has actually already had a fair few times Ash lost the upper hand through blundering of him or his team than actual challenge so either way it's not like they haven't demonstrated a flawed angle to Ash through his battling (eg. Hala, Olivia and Nanu all due to Pokemon disobedience, Nanu rematch due to losing his cool, Hau due to him dropping his freaking Z Ring). Wasn't last episode like the first time the entire series Pikachu got a 'swirly eyed' KO?

 

[U.N. Owen]

I guess it's because they want to keep SOME sort of balance due to the former case, and show that he is relatively good. Him making the same mistakes and losing more through incompetence than the fact his opponent was just THAT good undermines his experience, and BW already shown how protective the fanbase is of that.

I would argue power creeping his opponent only furthers pushes cynicism into the anime by saying there is always a stronger opponent and there is nothing you can do about it. The only way you could make this cynicism deeper is if you aged Ash.

 

[LilligantLewis]

What I want in Gen 8 is for Ash's league loss to be treated as his own fault and not a matter of fate.

In BWS2Da!20 when he was reminiscing back on his journeys and the most recent league loss I believe Ash himself either said or thought that he was disappointed in his performance at the Unova League and that he knew he should have done better.. in essence admitting it was his own fault and he wanted to train to get better.. in fact this episode was one of the reasons people thought he would win the Kalos League.

 

[DatsRight]

I would argue power creeping his opponent only furthers pushes cynicism into the anime by saying there is always a stronger opponent and there is nothing you can do about it. The only way you could make this cynicism deeper is if you aged Ash.

I suppose it also ties into my earlier point, Shota suddenly went from a rookie to nearly surpassing Ash in a relatively short sitting.

I can kinda see why the writers want to stick more to other things Ash can do right now because his battling is kinda reaching a cap with how the leagues can play out. It also helps to show that he's good at some things besides the one element he's always designated to be bettered in at the end of each series.

One thing I guess doesn't help is that it was based of some concept stories that were SUPPOSED to be rather cynical. Shudo designed the anime to have a rather crapsack outlook, that you can spend ages trying to accomplish this Pokemon occupation only to find out you're a failure. The current anime really tries to sugarcoat completely over this, even Team Rocket who managed to maintain this concept perfectly in some form in the early days of the show, have been dumbed down into more generic villains. The premise you can waste your life making bad decisions and end up failing miserably at things isn't something they like to delve into remotely right now.

 

[Jeal]

It doesn't change that Pikachu was still putting up WAY more of a fight than any previous opponent Serena had and she randomly had the competence to put up good strategies and manuevers with Braixen resisting far more offence than she ever had to before.

What? Dude, you are really delusional about it. Good strategies? All Serena did was defend and hit Pikachu with 1 Flamethrower, without causing damage to it. Nothing impressive. Ash was easy on her too.

 

[LilligantLewis]

I honestly wish DatsRight would stop talking about Serena's battle skills in every thread that has nothing to do with Serena.

 

[Jeal]

I honestly wish DatsRight would stop talking about Serena's battle skills in every thread that has nothing to do with Serena.

Serena's and Mallow's. I don't get how he brings this up in every thread with no relation to Serena or Mallow. And the Team Rocket being losers subject too.

 

[DatsRight]

Okay we'll get back to talking about how ugly SM's art style is, or how much the series compromised Ash's personality and how he should have left after DP, or how the SM companions don't get as good development compared to ones like Dawn, or how stupid it is to have a whole series on one island, or how short the arcs are, or how it's ALMOST as bad as BW (by the way in case you forgot Iris sucked and BW Ash is stupid) or there's ALMOST as much filler as Johto where Misty and Brock did nothing by the way, or whether the Japanese or English music composers are toxic to the show. You really think I'm the only broken record in this whole forum? Subjects cross and repeat, it happens. I'm sorry if it's annoying, but there's TONS of sore spots in the anime pointed out all the time by EVERYONE.

Well it's just the whole 'beat up Team Rocket/some other villainous jobber/ANY half assed battle' is a really monotonous and superficial way to make a character look good in the show over you know, giving them character agency or making them good in a developed agenda, and said characters do it ALL THE TIME in spite of said irrelevance. Trying to make a character look badass by beating up the same lame wads over and over and over AND OVER is less a sign of credibility and more a sign they've given up making this character interesting on their own. Regardless to how well Serena done against Ash, that battle was supposed to make her look promising and competent, don't deny it. Same for the Aria and Pikachu Rocker battles, superficially yes, but still the intent, otherwise they could have given her something relevant to do, or you know, had her fail like the things Ash doesn't specialise in.

It's glaring in Serena and Mallow's case because the very fact they AREN'T about battling but get forced into superficial moments of 'badassery' in nearly all their moments of limelight when even the actual battlers can go without in many episodes and just focus on their individual personality or something else to drive the story along. Even without the battling thing in mind they relied on having someone else in the cast around them BE REALLY BAD at whatever they were supposed to be doing, usually Ash or Team Rocket. It's a case of competent by relation rather than as an individual. If there wasn't someone around making them look like a pure winner all the time they'd likely be one of the most unremarkable characters on the show.

I consider SM Ash an improvement as a character because he works as an individual, he's not worthless as a protagonist unless something else is dumbing down the goalposts for him so it's about the same effortless task over and over, he can make a plot work on his own. If anything that seems to make them more confident giving him fallible moments more often since they think of lots of clever ways for him to vindicate himself. He's feels like a real character, not a polished prop they're trying to hide can only do prop-level things.

 

[Redstar45]

Oh yeah i starting to think that you are a delusion person still get upset about Serana and we get it you love sm Satoshi and some of us are done care about it and i am loath that sm for these reasons ....Yeah i know there is more reason to why that i wanted to get gen 8 then that .

 

[Jeal]

Regardless to how well Serena done against Ash, that battle was supposed to make her look promising and competent, don't deny it.

No, it wasn't. It was simply a battle to finish the series, same as Clemont's. This is a show about battles, like it or not. All the characters will battle, even the non-battlers.

 

[AznKei]

Serena's and Mallow's. I don't get how he brings this up in every thread with no relation to Serena or Mallow. And the Team Rocket being losers subject too.

Yeah, it's not the girls fault that they were like that. It's the producers/writers faults not to be able to handle them well.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

I wish Team Rocket were written off permanently. They've been grating to watch since the league in Kanto and have gone even more downhill since then.

But they'll never get written off and neither will Ash.

 

[DatsRight]

I wish Team Rocket were written off permanently. They've been grating to watch since the league in Kanto and have gone even more downhill since then.

But they'll never get written off and neither will Ash.

I think they could have worked in SM if they'd played on their arc role and made them slowly become more legitimate threats, if they really needed a jobber villain they could have just had Team Skull take the role this series. What's the point of two (if not more) curbstomp level bad guys?

Ash in spite of spotlight hogging still bounces off of the cast and compliments their personalities, TR don't play on that and are just written as a way to dumb things down.

No, it wasn't. It was simply a battle to finish the series, same as Clemont's. This is a show about battles, like it or not. All the characters will battle, even the non-battlers.

But as people retort to me over and over, SHE WASN'T ABOUT BATTLING.

I'm merely relating this to the issue with Ash, he's in the field where everyone has to at least get scout points and look superficially strong by the end of their run, and as time has slowly passed we rarely see any of the protagonists look weak in battles at all, they have to win if not clean house most of the time. While others can gain abilities others can't specialise in (and usually Ash will be the one to suck miserably at it to ram that down our heads) Ash can only be a mildly more accomplished battler without winning a championship at this point, likely why they've went for trying to emphasise Ash's abilities as an individual character now.

 

[Redstar45]

Ash can only be a mildly more accomplished battler

Yeah no he did more battle then rest of cast members and he is only one who is leaving the sm era with trio of rockets-gangs too ........so....no this is hardly fix the problem with Pokemon anime show and you know that and if gen 8 had ash return to his battle persona then this would not prove your proof at all .

 

[Jeal]

But as people retort to me over and over, SHE WASN'T ABOUT BATTLING.

This is what you are not getting, THIS SHOW IS ABOUT BATTLES! Every single character will battle someday, even the non-battlers. Ash competed in contests, getting in top 8 and tying with May. Will you complain about it too? Serena's battle skills in XY finale were nothing compared to a real battler, so stop talking like if her had defeated the Kalos Champion.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

As unlikely as this is, for gen 8 I would like to see the next female companion to be really active in battling as well as having a battling type of goal that isn't contests/performing or a one type master/gym leader. Ash should also be pushed into the deuteragonist role instead of having the main character role.

And I also would like Lillie to stay on the main cast as well.

 

[Redstar45]

Not going to be happened anyway and battle is ash stuff anyway

 

[DatsRight]

This is what you are not getting, THIS SHOW IS ABOUT BATTLES! Every single character will battle someday, even the non-battlers. Ash competed in contests, getting in top 8 and tying with May. Will you complain about it too? Serena's battle skills in XY finale were nothing compared to a real battler, so stop talking like if her had defeated the Kalos Champion.

But the loophole was that contests involved battles, and even then half or more of Ash's limelight did not comprise of him winning blandly written contests whenever he didn't get to do something key to his own goal. He did get the loads and loads of badly written battles like against Team Rocket or other schmucks but that's a universal complaint and he has at least evolved from that in SM and padded most of his non-key-battle screentime with character plots.

Serena and other characters don't just have battles but BORING battles. Yes you can use the excuse they're not about battling to excuse that, but that doesn't excuse not finding a way for them to constantly do this while still being entertaining, since like you say it's the main gimmick and plots still need to work around it, and plots still need to be FUN. I point out Serena chiefly for this battle issue because she had zero entertainment value as a battler but they still had her do one all the time and miraculously never lose. Did Serena NEED to do loads of TR curb stomps, or tons of half finished spars? Did they NEED to be curb stomps or half finished each and every time? Couldn't they have moderated them just a little to make her activities more interesting? Compare to say Sophocles who has the odd token battle, but just has them flow any way, win or lose, and otherwise just focuses chiefly on his personality or things he CAN make interesting.

Not going to be happened anyway and battle is ash stuff anyway

I really think the writers have a limit in how many good battles they can write per show, which is a large reason why I think just padding screentime in-between with bad ones doesn't work. Most of the good ones are saved for Ash's screentime and goal focus. Usually the others get the shaft in battle time or just get lame battles, XY and SM brought in non-battle agendas but only seemed to mildly moderate this. BW tried to flesh out things for example, with plenty tournaments and even less expected cases like the male companion and Team Rocket getting in some noteworthy fights, but that ended up having effect on the quality of the main arc battles. They can't keep up a consistent quality.

SM is showing the same rigidity, since even with the limit in battles for Ash himself, they're still not quite supplying in the other areas. Kiawe's had all of three battles and TR despite the shilling of Mimikyu, still have anti climatic battles even with Ash most of the time, and despite hopes from many, Lana still hasn't done a damn thing with her Z Ring. I don't think they could really handle another full time battler, not without either them or Ash suffering a severe downgrade in quality.

Our best hope is really that they finally solve the riddle of how to make a non-battler with a thorough and well written agenda.

 

[Redstar45]

Not every thing about sm anime you know that

 

[Jeal]

But the loophole was that contests involved battles, and even then half or more of Ash's limelight did not comprise of him winning blandly written contests whenever he didn't get to do something key to his own goal. He did get the loads and loads of badly written battles like against Team Rocket or other schmucks but that's a universal complaint and he has at least evolved from that in SM and padded most of his non-key-battle screentime with character plots.

Contest battles and regular battles are different. Serena had 23 episodes, 16 episodes were related to her goal, so your afirmation is false.

Dude, Serena had 7 battles the whole series(one of them was off-screen), so stop complaining like if she had battled more than Ash himself.

About Team Rocket battles, all the companions had them, mainly the XY ones. Clemont had 14 episodes, 6 of them with TR battles. Bonnie had 5 out of 8 episodes featuring TR. So if you will complain about it, at least stop focusing on Serena and talk about the others too.