How do you feel about the “group formula” be dismantled?

[Sham]

Okay so we are basically two years deep into Journeys so I think now is a valid time to ask this question. How do you feel about co protagonist aspect of it and alternatively how did you feel about the SM cast? XY was the last series to follow the group formula of having three-four members of a group including Ash, the third wheel gym leader, pokegirl and potential child sibling. What are your feelings towards the mix ups in group dynamics?

 

[Mew29240]

I think it's a nice change of pace!

For SM, I really liked that they had a big cast of characters (screen time issues aside) that Ash could bounce off of that would also interact with each other.

For Journeys, while I like the idea of going with dual protagonists as a concept, I miss having more (non-TRio) people that can regularly get into whatever hijinks that need to get going that episode. It can feel a bit empty when it's just Ash & Goh doing stuff sometimes.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I like the changes in dynamic. I think it worked amazing for SM. I know not all of them got a lot of development but everyone did have focus episodes and stuff going for them and all had amazing personalities and chemistry with each other. They bounced off each other really well and it made episodes esp fillers so much interesting coz there was so much scope for more character interactions and dynamic.
With Goh and Ash we have the benefit of having one of the best chemistry and dynamics when it comes to duos in the anime, but it needs to be balanced. Chloe works well too.
In my opinion, the best way is having 2 co protagonists, but one be a boy and the other a girl. And have a third character like Chloe who's still relevant but not a main character so they don't feel like an under developed mistreated third wheel companion. Bonnie was the perfect child sibling tbh, I don't want more of those in the cast ever.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Didn't like much on SM and Journeys seems more of an expansion of the idea DP originally came up with (the only major changes is demoting the third wheel to a recurring character - Brock/Chloe - and doubling down on the second protagonist being an equal to Ash).

Honestly, the co-protagonist angle is the kind of thing they should've never dropped in the first place, so I'm happy it's being revisited. I just hope they try to make three protagonists on next generation.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Didn't like much on SM and Journeys seems more of an expansion of the idea DP originally came up with (the only major changes is demoting the third wheel to a recurring character - Brock/Chloe - and doubling down on the second protagonist being an equal to Ash).

Honestly, the co-protagonist angle is the kind of thing they should've never dropped in the first place, so I'm happy it's being revisited. I just hope they try to make three protagonists on next generation.

I really don't think three protagonists will work. It's best to have 2 co protagonists and one lesser main character like Chloe tbh

 

[mysticalglacia]

I have mixed feelings on it. For SM, the concept of a big cast was interesting and made sense in the context; but in the end it was wasted and was more trouble than it was worth. For Journeys, I really like the co-protagonist setup, but the way they’re handling it is not my favorite thing in the world. But I do like how Koharu, while not a main character, is still prominent enough to tag along and feel like a fleshed-out companion when the situation calls for it. Ash and Go also have a good dynamic, but it feels a bit duller 70 episodes in.

The ideal cast size for me is three people. Ash, and a male and female companion. BW and OS were the best at this, because everyone stood out both as characters and as a group. Any more or less and it runs the risk of being too little or too much. Admittedly, DP felt like a duo, but to me that was excusable since the main dynamic between Ash and Dawn was so great.

 

[DatsRight]

I really don't think three protagonists will work. It's best to have 2 co protagonists and one lesser main character like Chloe tbh

I think more protagonists can work but they need to have an actual layout for what to do with them. A recurrent problem is that often at least one protagonist doesn't have any chemistries or dynamics to keep themselves relevant. They don't need a big fancy arc but they need to mesh with the rest of the series to stand out.

I feel like SM at least got more than half the cast feasible, not perfect but they had enough to say they weren't dead weight. Kiawe, Sophocles, and Lillie all got ongoing character involvement, but I think a large part in that is because they had good character dynamics with Ash and others so the writers knew what to play off of them the whole series. Similarly Mallow improved by the end of the series because they figured out some sort of dynamics for her to work off of.

Some say BW was the nearest to getting the trio dynamic balanced, and I think the use of chemistries was also a key reason.

 

[RafaSceptile]

After 20 years of doing the same, it was great that the writers decided to experiment with new structures of Ash's companions. In both cases, Ash and the SM cast/Goh had very good interactions with each other, but in both cases it was hard to balance the amount of development for all the characters.
However that last part is a problem with all the cast, since Brock usually was shafted in OS-DP, Cilan in BW, Serena in early-XY and Clemont in late-XY, so I don't mind that too much.

EDIT: Also Max and Bonnie were shafted (Except during XYZ)

 

[janejane6178]

Terrible. Ever since SM

 

[Ignition]

I’m mixed on the approach. I do like SM’s classmates and Go but I think their bigger/smaller than the usual 3-4 shows how unbalanced the focus is. In SM, it felt mostly like Ash and Lillie focus with occasionally Lana/Kiawe getting a fair share. Mallow and Sophocles kind of felt like afterthoughts sometimes despite being a fan of both of their characters. For JN, while I don’t really care about the “Go is taking Ash’s screentime” complaint, sometimes it feels like one of them could be removed and nothing would change so the other could have the episode to themselves (like how SM didn’t feel the need to have all 6 MCs in a given episode).

IMO I think the best dynamic is the BW trio because their dynamics between each other feel natural but they also work well together. Ash and Iris are the outcome of two good hearted yet stubborn people clashing but they learn to care/respect each other. Iris and Cilan have the whole “truths vs ideal” contrast with Iris being idealistic with her outlook compared to Cilan’s more truthful as seen with his tendency for using logical reasoning. Ash & Cilan have an underrated dynamic imo since Cilan clearly finds Ash’s unorthodox ways intriguing but Ash also finds Cilan’s variety of expertises as a Connoisseur intriguing. No one feels like a third wheel and they each bring something to the table. I feel like 3 MCs is the perfect balance as the rule of thirds generally works out for balance. Each character just needs the same amount of focus and have dynamics with everyone else on the main cast.

 

[Sham]

I echo everything @Ignition said tbh.

speaking of group dynamics I’ve been noticing very recently that people are saying Dawn and Brock barely spook to each other during DP (I’m not gonna get into who I think had the worst dynamic because it’s been said before and I don’t want to get quoted 20x times) but maybe I’m just not remembering things correctly because I feel like they did have a relationship. Maybe not a strong one but they did interact.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I agree about the fact that the BW trio had the most balanced focus and development between all the casts, however, I still feel like Cilan is a bit of a "3rd wheel" mainly because unlike Ash or Iris, his goal wasn't explored that much (unless I'm remembering wrong), we don't even know any S rank connoisseur yet

 

[DatsRight]

I echo everything @Ignition said tbh.

speaking of group dynamics I’ve been noticing very recently that people are saying Dawn and Brock barely spook to each other during DP (I’m not gonna get into who I think had the worst dynamic because it’s been said before and I don’t want to get quoted 20x times) but maybe I’m just not remembering things correctly because I feel like they did have a relationship. Maybe not a strong one but they did interact.

I guess maybe it was exacerbated by Brock just not interjecting a lot with what was going on throughout DP outside exposition and his usual running gag. Ironically by the first time Brock left in the series, I think he'd mostly run down on developed chemistries and interactions and mostly just did the same stuff every episode.

I feel like SM was the most fluent in terms of interactions as a whole (even some of the Pokemon got small arcs through tons of little interactions), but in terms of using it for character balance it was probably BW.

 

[Ignition]

I echo everything @Ignition said tbh.

speaking of group dynamics I’ve been noticing very recently that people are saying Dawn and Brock barely spook to each other during DP (I’m not gonna get into who I think had the worst dynamic because it’s been said before and I don’t want to get quoted 20x times) but maybe I’m just not remembering things correctly because I feel like they did have a relationship. Maybe not a strong one but they did interact.

I only just started my rewatch of DP (currently around Dawn’s first Contest) and I feel like they have a decent dynamic. It’s no Ash & Dawn but Brock feels like a legitimate mentor for her. I think part of it is that Brock’s Breeder goal is more pronounced in DP so he helps point out tips for her as a new Trainer. He’s also more involved with their training and always seems to be a more supportive person. AG also had mostly Ash and Max give May the basics in terms of things like type matchups. Admittedly Brock unfortunately falls back to his flirtatious gag with Croagunk for easy comedic relief if TRio isn’t around but when he’s being the big brother of the group. I feel like it’s done best in his last saga as a MC since it feels like the peak of all his experiences while traveling with Ash.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Yeah connoisseur was a weird goal. I think Cilan mentioned to Burgendy that moving up as a connoisseur involves attending classes but we’ve never seen Cilan do so. I think the goal was treated more as a gag than an actual goal considering most of his rants who involve a negative reception from Iris or co.

I think they intended to make the Connoisseur an actual goal, mainly because in XY we had an actual connoisseur acting as a judge during a showcase, so the writers at least still remembered that this existed, however the execution never was that interesting. As fot the classes, I only remember that the connoisseurs needs to approve an evaluation in order to promote to a better class.

 

[RafaSceptile]

While I think Clemont is one of the characters who had the best relationship with Ash (just behind Dawn, Misty and Iris). I hated his relationship with Bonnie. There was something about Bonnie being the driving force on their relationship that irked me and I’m not sure why

Probably because she went too far during some episode but she never was punished or something by this, even if she is a young kid (and with that I mean younger than Ash).
For example, it was fine for her to almost change his brother for the flute in the Snorlax episode and then she forgot about him. Or the XYZ episode with the weird Clemont and Arbok scene when she was the cause of all the problems into the episode.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

IMO I think the best dynamic is the BW trio because their dynamics between each other feel natural but they also work well together. Ash and Iris are the outcome of two good hearted yet stubborn people clashing but they learn to care/respect each other. Iris and Cilan have the whole “truths vs ideal” contrast with Iris being idealistic with her outlook compared to Cilan’s more truthful as seen with his tendency for using logical reasoning. Ash & Cilan have an underrated dynamic imo since Cilan clearly finds Ash’s unorthodox ways intriguing but Ash also finds Cilan’s variety of expertises as a Connoisseur intriguing. No one feels like a third wheel and they each bring something to the table. I feel like 3 MCs is the perfect balance as the rule of thirds generally works out for balance. Each character just needs the same amount of focus and have dynamics with everyone else on the main cast.

Wow, so good seeing some love for the BW trio for a change. Thanks, man.

I agree with what you said, but I'd like to say that Ash's and Cilan's dynamic also involved the tag battle thing. Unless I'm mistaken, they tended to tag battle more often than Ash/Iris or Iris/Cilan.

I only just started my rewatch of DP (currently around Dawn’s first Contest)

You are rewatching a show with 190 episodes?

You are a hero, mister.

 

[Ignition]

Wow, so good seeing some love for the BW trio for a change. Thanks, man.

I agree with what you said, but I'd like to say that Ash's and Cilan's dynamic also involved the tag battle thing. Unless I'm mistaken, they tended to tag battle more often than Ash/Iris or Iris/Cilan.

You are rewatching a show with 190 episodes?

You are a hero, mister.

The BW trio’s dynamic is one of the best parts of the season and definitely deserves more recognition besides “OS wannabes”. I do remember Ash & Cilan tag teaming quite a bit (subway twins and the land/air twins come to mind) now that you mentioned it. Definitely was a good way to showcase their good chemistry.

As for rewatching DP, it’s part of my rewatching of the entire anime so that’s over 1000 episodes plus movies and specials. I spent a good chunk of last year catching up on One Piece so my patience for binge watching has been increased

 

[Leonhart]

The SM cast was too big, which led to problems involving screen-time inequality and development. By contrast, I think that the current cast is too small, although at least the writers have managed to balance out the screen-time between Satoshi and Gou, so it's less irritating than how they handled SM.

 

[Dynamic_Fusion]

While SM & PM differ from the approach the First Previous Six Series has, both the approaches of SM & PM are also different from each other. SM still had Ash as its "Main Hero" while PM seems to approach it as either no hero or both Ash & Goh as hero. I don't mind the latter option as well though it is not executed as well. Ash here is on an equal level with Goh and Goh is on an equal level with Ash which means they both need equal screentime. The SM Companions don't need equal screentime with Ash.

although at least the writers have managed to balance out the screen-time between Satoshi and Gou

No, I respectfully disagree. The Screen-Time balance has been horrible.