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How do you feel about the “group formula” be dismantled?

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
I agree about the fact that the BW trio had the most balanced focus and development between all the casts, however, I still feel like Cilan is a bit of a "3rd wheel" mainly because unlike Ash or Iris, his goal wasn't explored that much (unless I'm remembering wrong), we don't even know any S rank connoisseur yet
I agree that from a goal standpoint he wasn't developed as much as the other two, but just having a rival and competing in the 1v1 tournaments every so often made him more dynamic than Brock imo. He's the only tritagonist to get a series-long rival. They definitely messed up the goal part but his character was more interesting and had more going on than Brock imo due to the rival and the tournaments.
I think they intended to make the Connoisseur an actual goal, mainly because in XY we had an actual connoisseur acting as a judge during a showcase, so the writers at least still remembered that this existed, however the execution never was that interesting. As fot the classes, I only remember that the connoisseurs needs to approve an evaluation in order to promote to a better class.
I still remember thinking the Connoisseur being a judge in a showcase was the perfect opportunity for Cilan to return, and I have no idea why they didn't. Back then, we were still used to companions returning only from the most recent generation, so I was expecting Iris or Cilan to return (and Cilan did in the Clemont and Bonnie special, but I want him to meet Ash) and thought that once XY&Z ended, there was no chance for Cilan to return. Journeys has changed that, and I hope that Cilan does return. Nevertheless, it was such an obvious and easy way to bring him back as a judge in XY, and they blew it.
I agree with what you said, but I'd like to say that Ash's and Cilan's dynamic also involved the tag battle thing. Unless I'm mistaken, they tended to tag battle more often than Ash/Iris or Iris/Cilan.
I actually don't remember many tag battles taking place in BW period tbh, but the one I do remember (BWS2-15) did produce this epic image, which I love:
DP106.jpg

It wasn't awful but the pacing and revelations were just ridiculously rapid and I think they needed some sort of real time dynamics to flow the backstory together.

They probably should start with some of the plots of the arc during S20, potentially during the Akala Arc because this was the first time all the group travelled and not only Ash got focus
Exactly. A properly done villain arc should build throughout the series, just like it does in the games. If you ignore the actual plot, the pacing of AG's arc was well done with Team Magma debuting in episode 2, and multiple appearances of Magma and Aqua throughout the series, culminating right before the seventh gym. TG was similar, multiple appearances culminating between gyms seven and eight. I think TP was meant to be similar, unfortunately the earthquake derailed that and they decided to put it fully after the league. Strangely, I guess they thought that was a good decision in BWS2EN and decided that TF should also only happen after the league? Not sure what that was about. Ever since BW, the villain arcs have just had weird pacing imo, and I fully agree that AF was just horrible. 11 straight episodes makes no sense. The events make sense, but should have been spread out over 3 years. Even Team Skull, which didn't have a super-proper conclusion, was better than AF bc of its pacing imo.
After the Whirl Cup, whatever Misty did is kind of a big blank to me, though it's been so long.
Misty after Whirl Cup was basically Clemont after his gym
 

Teravolt

cilan lives forever in my heart

Ryker101

Well-Known Member
I actually don’t mind the dual protagonist format we’ve got now. I like both Ash and Goh and think they complement each other really well. Despite how they’ve been handled, they’re both interesting characters in their own right. Depending on how they’re written, they could carry the show if needed. That being said, Chloe appearing more (and creating a traditional group) would elevate this dynamic as she’s basically a foil to both. She’s been a slowburn character and whether or not it pays off depends on how things end for her. Thankfully she has been appearing more frequently in episodes nowadays anyway.
 

Zero1999

Well-Known Member
In one way, it's a breath of fresh air, in another one, not really exciting as i hoped, Sword and Shield mechanic of a duo would have been personally much better without a character like Goh, it's nice to see the dynamic of a group of 3 or 4 characters walking down the road of the new region been changed, but i don't feel too excited.
 

Litleonid

Well-Known Member
When it came to SM, I felt like the cast was too big. The focus was uneven, and it was hard to juggle 6 main characters for the Pokemon anime, with characters like Mallow and Sophocles not getting that much. Ash and Lillie got the most attention, though the size of SM's cast really made me wish to go back to the days of 3-4 main cast members.

With Journeys, I miss having a 3rd member of the group. Its too small and the whole co-protagonist thing is done poorly, with Goh receiving significantly more focus than Ash, and he doesn't even have a goal that's interesting or engaging. DP did the co-protagonist thing significantly better with Ash and Dawn.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Deluded Dreamer
When it came to SM, I felt like the cast was too big. The focus was uneven, and it was hard to juggle 6 main characters for the Pokemon anime, with characters like Mallow and Sophocles not getting that much. Ash and Lillie got the most attention, though the size of SM's cast really made me wish to go back to the days of 3-4 main cast members.

With Journeys, I miss having a 3rd member of the group. Its too small and the whole co-protagonist thing is done poorly, with Goh receiving significantly more focus than Ash, and he doesn't even have a goal that's interesting or engaging. DP did the co-protagonist thing significantly better with Ash and Dawn.
I think SM's dynamic works well for a one off thing considering the family dynamic they wanted to adopt, and having just four characters wouldn't encompass that well imo, compared to the cast we had even if it led to some people receiving the short end of the stick. It definitely shouldn't be the staple though
I think the best way to go about is DP but with one slight change, have the person in Brock's place be more like a Chloe, still an important character but not classified as main compared to the other two. So basically JN's concept but DP's execution with some slight changes
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
I don't like that there is no female travel companion. And to be honest, just 2 people make for less lively moments, at least to me.
While this did bother me at first, in hindsight I'm starting to think that this is actually a blessing in disguise, because judging by how much combined screen-time Gou and Satoshi receive, I think that a main female travel companion would end up being neglected for the most part, which would just lead to complaints that the writers aren't giving the female companion enough attention. Koharu is a decent substitute even if she's only with the duo infrequently.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think SM's dynamic works well for a one off thing considering the family dynamic they wanted to adopt, and having just four characters wouldn't encompass that well imo, compared to the cast we had even if it led to some people receiving the short end of the stick. It definitely shouldn't be the staple though
I think the best way to go about is DP but with one slight change, have the person in Brock's place be more like a Chloe, still an important character but not classified as main compared to the other two. So basically JN's concept but DP's execution with some slight changes
Generally the best they do in terms of compromising three companions is have one have most of the development arc and the other have most of the key supporting roles and interaction based involvement. A recurrent problem is that too often one companion tends to absorb BOTH roles in the end, though you can often still see their aim originally (eg. Brock was clearly designed to be a mentor type while Misty was a secondary flawed rookie character, just after a while they both whittled down).

I feel like BW kinda got this compromise well, and XY and SM SOMETIMES did (with Lillie and Sophocles taking the development role and Kiawe and Mallow taking the interaction role, not sure where to define Lana :p). This might be why some are disappointed Journeys kept to only one companion, since Chloe could maybe have worked as the supporting member while Goh got the development arc.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Lana is comedy relief, and very good at that, especially in a series where Team Rocket was a bit more in the background.
 

Psajdak

Well-Known Member
Brock was unnecessary.

Ash could have easily learnt everything he needed from Pokedex, and/or COTDs.

As for food, cooking his own food would have added more to Ash' character.

Misty was enough.
 

deliaketchum

Well-Known Member
Brock always gave sense of maturity in their group dynamics.
Brock - wise one
Pokegirl - Worrisome
Ash - Reckless
Basically the group formula relied on these three personality types and they got childish humour out of it.
 
It doesn't bother me, that had its downsides. If people don't like Journeys, it's more for its execution. There are great adventure series with two protagonists.
 
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