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How do you feel about the “group formula” be dismantled?

Morax

King of heroes
Yes and no. The jokes were there but most of it was twisted to fit an American audience. 4kids was more so known for editing parts concerning things culturally tied to Japan (and Pokeshipping apparently but that’s a lie).
Didn't takeshi shudo debunk pokeshipping?
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Didn't takeshi shudo debunk pokeshipping?
Half of what Shudo says in that book shouldn’t be taken by face value and definitely things in the future anime contradict it. OS episode 103 pretty much confirms it was indeed in the original.
 

Morax

King of heroes
Half of what Shudo says in that book shouldn’t be taken by face value and definitely things in the future anime contradict it. OS episode 103 pretty much confirms it was indeed in the original.
So what happened to it? Why did they drop without any sort of confession/kiss?
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
So what happened to it? Why did they drop without any sort of confession/kiss?
I mean technically Amour didn’t conclude with a kiss (a least not a consensual one) so that’s doesn’t mean anything quite frankly. I don’t want to discuss this any further because threads magically get locked after going back and forth about these things but the short answer is it was probably dropped because they decided to replace Misty. I don’t have much of an interest arguing if it was real or not tbh so we’ll just leave it here.
 

Morax

King of heroes
I mean technically Amour didn’t conclude with a kiss (a least not a consensual one) so that’s doesn’t mean anything quite frankly
Amour did conclude with a kiss though? They even had censor it because kissing ain't allowed in a kids show. Considering it's the only instance of a lip-lock in the entire anime, it's kind of a big deal.
 

Bendicion

Water Master
Idk, everything about this tires me out so much. The untapped potential. Goh and his whole character. Ash being forced to take the backseat even when an episode is about him. The endless and pointless discussions. Ugh.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
I also think that if they planned on having a recurring character it should of been Goh not Chloe. Chloe has a way more interesting story it seems like for a certain time they’ve slowly been diminishing the girl’s active role in a series to now we are the point where the “pokegirl” of this generation is barely even seen.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I also think that if they planned on having a recurring character it should of been Goh not Chloe. Chloe has a way more interesting story it seems like for a certain time they’ve slowly been diminishing the girl’s active role in a series to now we are the point where the “pokegirl” of this generation is barely even seen.
Its like they said 'never again' once they finished up with Dawn and her arc :/
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
At least the companion Pokemon stuck from that series.

It does feel like female characters have gradually gotten more neutral and underplayed since Dawn. Iris was less focused by comparison, but still reasonable and was the last really flawed and proactive Pokegirl with a battle agenda. Serena kinda got there, but they struggled to think up a role for a long while and were starting to show resilience to having the girls battle or get involved intensely. The SM girls all kinda struggled in terms of having growth as trainers than the boys, had undercooked goals, and all of them fizzled in the league while the boys got palpable fights. Only Lillie really got main arc focus or did a lot of slapstick even. Chloe meanwhile is straight up relegated to recurring character instead of full on companion, like they knew they wouldn't do much with her.

I suppose the plus side is that with this they are at least bothering to let the male companions get a turn.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Disagree. Misty was practically raising a baby full time in Johto but she definitely battled more than Lillie, Mallow AND Lana and I’m saying this as a Lillie fan. I blame BW attempting to emulate OS for why Iris got shafted but I would say 26 focus episode 27 if you count Journeys is pretty good.
It's not just the battle and episode quota however. Misty started to suffer a similar issue many lower tiers in the 'group formula' suffer in that they just started to shift to standing in the background in most episodes they weren't the particular focus. Her banter and dynamics were only sporadically used and in a lot of episodes she didn't even take part in the comedy much. We got running gags like her fear of bugs and pulling Brock's ear but they stay as that, running gags. Kanto Misty was known for being a rather poor trainer but a good character all the same because of her chemistries and habit to make herself part of the scenario and I think that's why many see Johto Misty as a downgrade.

I mentioned Iris and Kiawe in an earlier thread as being upgrades over Misty and Brock because, while their individual development was still kinda humble compared to others, they possessed the ability to stand out and have an agency within the group and KEPT HOLD OF IT the entire series they were in, even in supporting roles. The SM girls, even Lillie to lesser degree, had the same issue of just standing in the background as neutral props in a lot of episodes they weren't the key focus (Sophocles also did earlier but grew out of it when the boy trio dynamic was developed).
 
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RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
Misty only got like 40 focused episodes in a series with 274 episodes. That is sligthly higher than what Lillie got with 17 focused episodes in a series with 146 episodes. Misty had more battles (I guess), but she only had like 1 arc (the Whirl Cup) and nothing else, at least Lillie had the Aether Foundation that I guess was better than the Whirl Cup and a bit of the Mohn plot at the end.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I also don’t think it fair to compare Misty to the rest of the girls since she’s the original Pokegirl and therefor the newer girls are bound to be “better” or more improved later on.
It's weird however since Misty started off okay, like I said she tended to make herself involved with nearly every episode of Kanto and a fair few of Orange Islands. In terms of a trainer she was still pretty poor, but in terms of the group formula she was arguably one of the best, and yet gradually dwindled to one of the worst by Johto, even if she battled better when they could be bothered with her. The specials did her better but those were made for her with no group involved.

Did she get many SERIOUS battles that weren't Team Rocket thrashings or Psyduck gag battles though? In terms of battles, goals and other limelight, I tend to mostly count ones that involve actual agency or development for the character.

Misty only got like 40 focused episodes in a series with 274 episodes. That is sligthly higher than what Lillie got with 17 focused episodes in a series with 146 episodes. Misty had more battles (I guess), but she only had like 1 arc (the Whirl Cup) and nothing else, at least Lillie had the Aether Foundation that I guess was better than the Whirl Cup and a bit of the Mohn plot at the end.
As mentioned I tend not to always count spotlight episodes as a face value quota. It can be a quality over quantity thing sometimes. Kiawe got the least episodes of the SM cast and a lot of other companions, but they arguably did him more justice.

Also in terms of a group formula, a character can't just only matter when they're in centre stage. They have to be good in supporting roles within the whole group, even Ash. That's what a group dynamic is after all. Some argue May and Serena suffered this to some degree too for example. They maybe had more vivid arcs than Misty did but they still had a lot of episodes they were kind of just dead weight or not interacting with anyone. I think this was what arguably destroyed Misty's character more, she just stopped functioning as a supporting character when previously that was one of her biggest strengths and where she got a lot of her personality and agency before.
 
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Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I think Sun and Moon was really good. The cast was large and allowed for a lot of different combinations and dynamics. Not all of them were that deep, but it hit a lot of good notes. The bonds between Mallow and Lillie or between Mallow and Lana are very well done. We also get some great character stuff from stuff like Sophocles' perceived goodbye episode or the episode where Rotom might leave (where Lillie supports Ash).

Journeys sometimes hits good stuff, but sporadically and usually with outside characters. The dynamic between Go and Ash just isn't really working well as they don't complement each other that well. Sure Sun and Moon also didn't have deep interactions between all the characters, but when you only have two main characters at the forefront you can't get away with variety as much. Go offers nothing to Ash. Ash sometimes can help when Go has issues with his pokémon, but even then he doesn't do much. There's never really any depth between them, when an episode is about something Go is going through Ash is just there in the background and when an episode is about Ash Go is just there in the background doing nothing, or maybe just catching a pokémon that'll never be used. The few episodes I've seen Chloe actually appear she seems to have the potential to provide that depth, but the story just doesn't do anything with her and she's hardly ever around, as a result her interactions with Ash and Go are mostly limited to her just showing her disinterest in their activities.

It's not so much about the amount of characters, it's about how they interact and are utilised, and whether their characters can complement one-another through their different perspectives and provide depth. Go and Ash have different goals but their characters just don't bounce off each other all that well.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think Sun and Moon was really good. The cast was large and allowed for a lot of different combinations and dynamics. Not all of them were that deep, but it hit a lot of good notes. The bonds between Mallow and Lillie or between Mallow and Lana are very well done. We also get some great character stuff from stuff like Sophocles' perceived goodbye episode or the episode where Rotom might leave (where Lillie supports Ash).

Journeys sometimes hits good stuff, but sporadically and usually with outside characters. The dynamic between Go and Ash just isn't really working well as they don't complement each other that well. Sure Sun and Moon also didn't have deep interactions between all the characters, but when you only have two main characters at the forefront you can't get away with variety as much. Go offers nothing to Ash. Ash sometimes can help when Go has issues with his pokémon, but even then he doesn't do much. There's never really any depth between them, when an episode is about something Go is going through Ash is just there in the background and when an episode is about Ash Go is just there in the background doing nothing, or maybe just catching a pokémon that'll never be used. The few episodes I've seen Chloe actually appear she seems to have the potential to provide that depth, but the story just doesn't do anything with her and she's hardly ever around, as a result her interactions with Ash and Go are mostly limited to her just showing her disinterest in their activities.

It's not so much about the amount of characters, it's about how they interact and are utilised, and whether their characters can complement one-another through their different perspectives and provide depth. Go and Ash have different goals but their characters just don't bounce off each other all that well.
Pokemon chemistries are also of note in Sun and Moon.

In SM nearly every Pokemon team had a good number of fun chemistries, which meant they could keep even balance between each other.

Ash's team for example largely feel balanced and all get reasonable development in the league, largely because all of them have dynamics with each other or rival Pokemon to make themselves relevant. Compare this to say XY, that started off good in this area, but slowly just became the Greninja Show after the Pokemon evolved and no longer had a synergy. SM was also good at linking development between characters, eg. at least four Pokemon wanting to evolve to keep up with one of their teammates, or being caught because they befriended a Pokemon first, Ash and Kiawe helping Sophocles train Vikavolt, Ash and Gladion helping Lillie with her phobia. This is more than just a pep talk or cheering from the background, these characters are getting involved directly with another's growth.

This is generally why a main character has to have a wide range of chemistries with the rest of the cast to give them openings to develop and gain a role, even when it isn't necessarily their turn in the limelight. There was a larger amount of 'duo' episodes in that series more than others because of this as well. Ash/Lillie, Ash/Kiawe, Kiawe/Sophocles, Mallow/Lana, etc. and often times these were some of their best roles.

I think this is why people put Dawn so high on the list for example, she not only got a good individual arc but she was generally good at gaining chemistries with other characters to involve herself as a supporting character. There's not quite as many 'background prop' roles for Dawn yet she allowed other characters to shine (besides arguably Brock).
 
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