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How do you feel about the lack of rivals in the original series?

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
As we know, Gary was the only real major recurring rival from Kanto-Johto. Characters like Richie only appeared for the league and a small arc in Johto but never battled Ash again. And then there was Casey who could have been a rival but just fizzled out.

Misty and Brock also had no rivals, at all. Whereas every female companion afterward got their own set of rivals, and even Cilan got a rival in BW...Misty and Brock were never given recurring characters to compete against. Instead of getting to see Misty test her water pokemon skills against someone, she didn't get to do such a thing.

The other problem is how little episodes Gary was in. He only appears like 8 times in Kanto, he's only in the last 2 episodes of Orange, and he's only in 3 episodes of Johto before the league. Gary barely appeared at all.

How do you feel?
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I really feel that there should have been more rivals. If Misty and Brock had rivals, especially during Johto then both wouldn't have become as stale and as boring as they both have gotten back then. I also think that Gary should have appeared alot more and that he should have battled Ash alot more then the only 3 or so times they battled. I would have like to see them both battle as much as Ash and Paul battled in DP.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
I find it strange that Ash and Gary didn't even have their first battle till the end of Orange Islands.

It shocks me to this day that Ash and Gary didn't battle even once in all of Kanto. What's the point of a rival you never compete against?
 

Lanced

Well-Known Member
It didn't bother me about Misty or Brock's lack of rivals, as I feel they didn't play as big a roles as the later companions, and didn't have such clearly defined goals. I loved Gary as a rival but I agree that he didn't appear enough, but when he did it was handled expertly I felt, building up just the right amount of tension between him and Ash (Just a shame we never got to see them battle in the Kanto league). I think out of all the rival's Paul was handled the best, he appeared quite frequently and I liked that his appearances weren't just to battle against Ash.
 

-chazz-

Pokemon master
Actually preferred it when there were fewer rivals, Gary could've appeared more but one was enough
 

MattySadler

Well-Known Member
Strangely enough, the lack of rival worked really well in Kanto.

I think Gary's lack of actual appearances did a lot for his strength as a character. He always came across as this guy who was so superior to Ash, who Ash would never get close to or surpass. He appeared infrequently, but we'd get regular updates about how far ahead of Ash he was and how many hundred more Pokemon had. The few times he actually did appear, he was arrogant and obnoxious, just how a rival should be.

Obviously since, we've had some really good, more regularly appearing rivals, namely Paul, and I think that worked well (particularly Paul), but I'm sure many would argue Gary is Ash's greatest rival.
 

Kutie Pie

"It is my destiny."
I find it strange that Ash and Gary didn't even have their first battle till the end of Orange Islands.

It shocks me to this day that Ash and Gary didn't battle even once in all of Kanto. What's the point of a rival you never compete against?

Yeah, the only thing he really did was just taunt Ash the whole time. I wonder if they originally were going to have Ash and Gary battle in the Indigo League when they had planned for the one season, but once it got popular and they were ready to make a second season, Gary ended up losing in the fourth round, and then Ritchie shows up out of nowhere in the next episode. It was really cheap of them to do that to build up to this fight between Ash and Gary, but then we don't end up getting it until right before Johto. So we had to wait two years from the beginning before we got anything, and I personally don't remember that leaving a big impact or at least bring some satisfaction, especially since it was just the one-on-one match. At least we get a proper match between rivals at the end of Johto, but I think by that time, the build-up had long-since worn out since we didn't see Gary much in Johto like we did in Kanto.

I also don't remember Casey doing too much. It would've been great if she was the rival of the Johto seasons, but she only showed up I think no more than five times, and it felt more like a friendly encounter than one that turned into some form of (friendly) rivalry. I don't even recall her showing up at the Johto League, she just disappeared from the show.

Maybe it would've been interesting if Misty and/or Brock--or hell, even Tracey--had rivals of their own (I don't think Misty even got a "rival" during the Whirl Islands Tournament), but I don't think it would've made much of a difference.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
I am displeased, but at same time realistically not much surprised. Original series in general were known as pokemon period where battles, pokemon themselves being fleshed out that much aside from few and progression toward dreams including rivalries wasn't smething where there was payed much attention to.

Pokemon series during Kanto, Orange and Johto were more designed to be about telling adventure full of drama, kinky plots and unexpected surprises where close grpup of friends discover world. There was more emphasis put on development of humans themselves, their fears, dilemmas and their own instincts. And more focused on emotion, depth and concept of exploring new pokemon, mysteries and secrets of world.
Not to mention writers still experimented, tried out different ideas to find working tune for this anime. Along with lacking experience in how pokemon rivalries should be written. Hence explaining why Gary appeared rarely with rivalry while entertaining and driven with passion, lacked proper structure and build up.

Same applies to Ash companions. I too wish Brock and Misty got some rivals. Someone which would drive them forward, increase suspense and provide motivation, anxiety among main characters striving to catch up to them and surpass. Making their traveling toward destination more challenging along with learning from their wins and defeats.

Misty did tested her skills as water trainer against other trainers developing small competitive fire like Marina from Orange Islands,Trinity and Harrison from Whirl Cup,unofficial gym leader Dorian, Andreas from Seaking contest etc. But it was just one time thing unfortunately.

Shame becaue some were excellent rival material, especially water trainer Marina from Orange Islands who adored water pokemon just as much as Misty wanting to become top trainer with them. It definitely had potential.

But in end like i said different standards were followed before so im not so much bothered understanding why it didn't happened. Beside OS functioned great even without rivals with Ash, Misty and Brock being great and impacting on plot. Containing emotion, passion and really great characterization filled with lot of enjoyable adventures and moments. Despite idea of rivalries and strong opposing views not becoming functional back than.

I really feel that there should have been more rivals. If Misty and Brock had rivals, especially during Johto then both wouldn't have become as stale and as boring as they both have gotten back then. I also think that Gary should have appeared alot more and that he should have battled Ash alot more then the only 3 or so times they battled. I would have like to see them both battle as much as Ash and Paul battled in DP.

I constantly hear this, but i dont think Misty or Brock have gotten stale in Johto at all. Which is basically another word for boring.

Brock was still legitimately enjoyable character imo having several memorable episodes and developed more as breeder.

So was Misty brimming with lot of spunk, sarcasm, flirty, curious and passionate nature showing lot of spirit and flare in standing up for weak, battling, various cute pokemon(Chinchau, Teddiursa, Eevee, Quagsire come to mind), her water master dreams. Being involved in many enjoyable episodes, had basically almost whole Whirl Islands dedicated to her, entered various events like Seaking contest, water racem balloon racem, tried to get Totodile , helped Brock many times about his love issues(like with that girl Temaku)strengthening their friendship etc,

I agree how Misty and Brock should have gotten rivals. It would definitely help to keep them more active, bring more conflict which at times lacked in Johto as well more dimension to their stories,

But while neglected at times, i still actually enjoyed in both during Johto series being overall great characters doing much more than people seem to remember.
 
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minerswhocraft

Misty Come Back!
I will say that, only just having watched the Original Series for the first time, I was expecting to see a lot more Gary than I did. It was definitely a shock to me to say the least.

Though I haven't seen anything past a few episodes in Hoenn yet, I can say that having a reoccurring rival could have really made us root for Ash even more than we already were, and maybe having a tough rival that Ash would have lost to more often than beat would have really made Ash winning all the more great! It was also odd to see their rivalry end after one actual battle.

You would think that in a world of competitive battling you could have come across many opponents who would strive to be better than you. I guess the great thing about Pokemon is that everyone is a good sport, and understand that it is better to learn from a loss than hold a grudge to one.
 

the1stpkmnfan

Your Big Buff Bro
The idea of rivals never really occurred to me when watching the original show. The COTDs ended up filling that void unknowingly. Gary himself already represented the rival part of the show, and that's all I would comprehend at first.

I also never completed the Johto saga, and from everyones' view points, it doesn't seem like there's too much to take from it. It's also astounding that Ash didn't have too many rival encounters in Johto. Not to mention, hardly any in Hoenn. Thank goodness Sinnoh changed that with Paul. Unova helped, but it had too many rivals.
 

minerswhocraft

Misty Come Back!
Oddly, when Ash does see Gary in Johto they are on good terms and not at all competitive or condensing like they had been in the first season. It was kinda nice to see them grow more as friends rather than rivals, so ash didn't really even have a rival in Johto!

I loved Johto btw. Best theme songs in the show too!
 

OfCorsola

Brock and Misty!
I really wish there were more rivals in OS. Misty and Brock should've had rivals. It would make the series even more interesting. Brock could've had a breeder rival, and Misty could've had a rival during pokemon water cup thingy majigs even though Ash was bascially her rival..
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
They must had given Misty a rival maybe a pure fire type trainer. And Brock didn't have a rival, was good for me. Brock was more a teacher for Ash but its shown in the times he battled TRio and trained with Ash, he was on the same level. Brock was more a teacher for Ash then Misty ever was. They have let Ash made it to the semi final in the DP saga, so they could write Brock of the show and give him a suitable ending to pursue his own dreams.
 

Kuvario

I am who I am...because of them.
I'd say it was okay enough. But Ash had nearly no rivals at all. I mean Gary is cool and all, but he didn't do anything but troll Ash all the time. I'd say Paul was a better rival cause he actually appeared and battled Ash, unlike Gary who did nothing but brag and troll. I don't care about the others getting rivals, but Ash needed someone who appeared more often.
 

majormanafemale

Well-Known Member
Didn't sh Suzie become Brock's rivial. Pretty sure Misty's rivial was Sakura sure didn't appear often but neitherdid Ash's rivial consiting of Gary and Ritchie. Nt their fault rivials are also friends. Actually I found it more odd when rivials didn't become friends.

May took care of rivial need in Hoenn as was change in things so made sence in story line. Sinnoh i think Dawn had to many rivials.they did decent job with Paul to Ash rivialary.

They don't need intense rivialary to work. I like rivials who are also friends it works.
 

Kuvario

I am who I am...because of them.
Didn't sh Suzie become Brock's rivial. Pretty sure Misty's rivial was Sakura sure didn't appear often but neitherdid Ash's rivial consiting of Gary and Ritchie. Nt their fault rivials are also friends. Actually I found it more odd when rivials didn't become friends.

May took care of rivial need in Hoenn as was change in things so made sence in story line. Sinnoh i think Dawn had to many rivials.they did decent job with Paul to Ash rivialary.

They don't need intense rivialary to work. I like rivials who are also friends it works.

No she did not become Brock's rival. And Sakura wasn't Misty;s rival either. Ritchie was non-existent from after the Kanto League to the Whirl Islands, and Gary appeared like once or twice in every season of Johto's dub. It makes it boring to watch, rivals are supposed to push characters to their limits like Ash and Gary, May and Drew, etc. Not be sugary sweet to them. I'd say it was better that they didn't.

True. She also had unnecessary rivals, like Kenny, Zoey at times cause Dawn never beat her on screen, Nando because Dawn never fought a contest against him.

It'd be better overall. Did Ritchie work? Did Zoey work? Nope, the former was a Gary Stu IMO because how little flaws he had, and same with Zoey.
 

Thriller

Its almost time
It would have been nice if Gary did some real criticizing of Ash, instead of going "Haha Ash is a loser" all the time. We heard no feedback from Gary on the Ash/Charizard debacle, I'm sure Gary would have given Ash some constructive criticism on it.
 

Vernikova

Champion
Gary was enough. The only problem was that he didn't appear as often as he should have. Along with Casey and Ritchie.
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
Unlike some newer sagas, I felt that OS was actually good even without many rivals. Gary was enough in my opinion. I never really felt that the lack of rivals was a problem tbh.
 

fawfulmark2

Well-Known Member
You gotta remember though, at the beginning there really wasn't that many needed. Ash was truly an underdog who was new to the world of Pokemon, and Gary represented the guy always one step ahead that he strived to surpass(and to a lesser extent did in the Indigo Plateau.) Misty and Brock were teachers helping Ash become a better trainer, so rivals weren't really needed-Misty was already a Skilled trainer, but as stuck under the shadow of her sisters in a way so her own rivalry was more an internal thing. Brock was a semiretired gym leader who only wanted to study Pokémon breeding, so how exactly could a rivalry be made of that?

The only thing I feel is that Ash and Gary should not have had the last fight for the sake of Ash traveling again-Ash beating him in Johto and his retirement to become a scientist like his grandfather brought everything full circle and was a fitting end for those 2.
 
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