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How do you feel about the SM arcs?

Ignition

Don’t be so hostile over a children’s franchise
So the most one dimensional interpretation of Lusamine's character are the only high lights to you and the fan base? Villain does NOT have to equal, irredeemable scum, that was never the intention for Lusamine in S/M and it is evident when the anime and US/UM try to give her more depth. (If anything, S/M was the version that screwed her up. By only focusing on her villainy and half assing the depths to her character that the game tried to tell you about in the last quarter of the plot and after everything was said and done.)

In the games, they gave the back story on Mohn disappearing into an ultra wormhole and causing all sorts of trauma to Lusamine. In addition, they out of the way to imply that she was intoxicated by Nihilego before you met her. (Enhances your traits ten fold, dull mental inhibitors and redirect your priorities for the benefit of Nihilego.
Compare certain scenes with her in S/M to US/UM. The later is where Lusamine is less extreme and her plans have nothing to do with Nihilego, but to stop Necrozma, who was the looming threat of the story. (Note, the Mohn trauma still resulted in messing her up and resulting in her becoming abusive, the entire part of Lusamine's development in the Ultra games is getting the wake up call that she isn't as good of a person as she thinks she is and turning herself around for the better..)
Before you say, nothing in the games suggested that she wasn't infected by Nihilego. The difference starts becoming apparent in US/UM right after you meet Nihilego and beat it, unlike the vanilla games, she makes no crazy smile and the URS arrive to explain Necrozma. In addition in S/M she was very vague about what Aether was doing down at the labs, in contrast to US/UM where she flat out told you that Aether was doing a wormhole experiment and it wasn't going as well as planned.
More examples that Lusamine was drugged out of her mind in S/M
Are here
Here
Here

Also, Lusamine in the anime, didn't suddenly go insane from her inner interest in the UB's. It was implied through the Arc, that since she was a child, she wanted to meet an Ultra Beast, two times they flat out told us, the third one was when Lusamine was in brief awe at Nihilego's arrival before focusing on protecting her kids. Once Nihilego took her into Ultra Space, that is when Lusamine gets dooped up on the venom via becoming the mother and became nuts, because THAT IS WHAT NIHILEGO VENOM DOES TO YOU! It makes you got nuts from your our of control traits and flaws by dulling the conscious barrier between what ever impulse goes through your head and common sense.
Who's saying that? I never said she had to be some completely irredeemable monster. Her bold contrast to the rest to the rest of the Alola cast (minus a stubborn Gladion and Nanu) is what I like about her. Where are you getting that impression (as my response never touched the idea of her redemption)? Compared to everything else, yes, everything I noted is the highlight of her character. It's also the most common of her character traits to be depicted in fans praise for her.

I don't really care for the rest of the "Before you say...." onwards as that has nothing to the point I'm making as to why people are against her characterization (which you seriously are exaggerating. It's just a preference)
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
Who's saying that? I never said she had to be some completely irredeemable monster. Her bold contrast to the rest to the rest of the Alola cast (minus a stubborn Gladion and Nanu) is what I like about her. Where are you getting that impression (as my response never touched the idea of her redemption)? Compared to everything else, yes, everything I noted is the highlight of her character. It's also the most common of her character traits to be depicted in fans praise for her.

I don't really care for the rest of the "Before you say...." onwards as that has nothing to the point I'm making as to why people are against her characterization (which you seriously are exaggerating. It's just a preference)
When you only give praise to a character doing horrible things and ignore every nuance to that character that make a complete story and thus the bigger picture, it become a one dimensional interpretation. That is why to me S/M's ending was half assed, it should have continued with us seeing Lusamine recover from her near death experience, us SEEING how sorry she really is for her crap and her trying to make up for it before she had to be sent to Kanto and leaving it at that. Why I prefer US/UM's take on her, despite that her villainy was reduced to what is kind of common in these games, she still done similar plot beats in those games and had better character development.

You do might want to read it the "before you say.... onwards," because it explains everything about Lusamine in both games.

I also stated why you got the general plot flow of Lusamine in the anime wrong in how she was "suddenly goes insane from her inner interest in the Ultra Beasts." In the anime, Lusamine is STILL not a good parent. She spent early in the Aether Arc giving unwanted attention to Lillie without paying attention to the fact that her did doesn't want it.
While the Clefairy thing may seem bratty, Lusamine had the family pet evolve without telling Lillie or seeing that it was something the kids wanted to happen before hand. (Her want over her kids.). In addition, Lusamine neglecting social time with her kids for work was another thing that ticked Lillie off, it was the reason why Lillie cut the call in the sleep over episode. She was done with half interaction.

Now for Lillie's trauma and how even though Lusamine isn't evil in the anime, I still call what happened crappy parenting. When your kid, wanders into a lab, was at the wrong place, at the wrong time and was nearly abducted by the equivalent to a wild animal and thus was traumatized, if you don't even try to investigate how it happened, why it happened and thus not really being there for that kid when they need it. You screwed up big!

Gladion, tore into Lusamine for allowing it to happen and seemingly being more concern that Faba opened a wormhole without her knowing that the fact this traumatized Lillie.

Then comes character development, where she shows that she does care for her kids. Including but not limited to, sacrificing herself for her kids safety when Nihilego became the forefront. The anime, showed us what Lusamine would have been like without the Mohn trauma and without the Nihilego venom in her brain that made the jellyfish the only thing to care about. The next we saw her, as the mother beast, Nihilego became the only thing that mattered, like a toy you really wanted and to her, the heroes coming to rescue her are like a group of bullies wanting to take that toy away from her.
 
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Ignition

Don’t be so hostile over a children’s franchise
When you only give praise to a character doing horrible things and ignore every nuance to that character that make a complete story and thus the bigger picture, it become a one dimensional interpretation. That is why to me S/M's ending was half assed, it should have continued with us seeing Lusamine recover from her near death experience, us SEEING how sorry she really is for her crap and her trying to make up for it before she had to be sent to Kanto and leaving it at that. Why I prefer US/UM's take on her, despite that her villainy was reduced to what is kind of common in these games, she still done similar plot beats in those games and had better character development.

You do might want to read it the "before you say.... onwards," because it explains everything about Lusamine in both games.

I also stated why you got the general plot flow of Lusamine in the anime wrong in how she was "suddenly goes insane from her interest in the Ultra Beasts." In the anime, Lusamine is STILL not a good parent. She spent early in the Aether Arc giving unwanted attention to Lillie without paying attention to the fact that her did doesn't want it.
While the Clefairy thing may seem bratty, Lusamine had the family pet evolve without telling Lillie or seeing that it was something the kids wanted to happen before hand. (Her want over her kids.). In addition, Lusamine neglecting social time with her kids for work was another thing that ticked Lillie off, it was the reason why Lillie cut the call in the sleep over episode. She was done with half interaction.

Now for Lillie's trauma and how even though Lusamine isn't evil in the anime, I still call what happened crappy parenting. When your kid, wanders into a lab, was at the wrong place, at the wrong time and was nearly abducted by the equivalent to a wild animal and thus was traumatized, if you don't even try to investigate how it happened, why it happened and thus not really being there for that kid when they need it. You screwed up big!

Gladion, tore into Lusamine for allowing it to happen and seemingly being more concern that Faba opened a wormhole without her knowing that the fact this traumatized Lillie.

Then comes character development, where she shows that she does care for her kids. Including but not limited to, sacrificing herself for her kids safety when Nihilego became the forefront. The anime, showed us what Lusamine would have been like without the Mohn trauma and without the Nihilego venom in her brain that made the jellyfish the only thing to care about. The next we saw her, as the mother beast, Nihilego became the only thing that mattered, like a toy you really wanted and to her, the heroes coming to rescue her are like a group of bullies wanting to take that toy away from her.
Again, I understand the "full picture" but I'm giving credit to the more favorable attributes of Lusamine (for me and a good portion of the fanbsse, that is). I don't need to read that because I've played both sets of Alola games. So I'll pass on that. Idrc about it being an one dimensional analysis as I'm not looking at the full scope of Lusamine as a character

You seem to be getting my interpretation of Lusamine's anime characterization wrong. Am I denying she's a bad parent? No. Don't see how you get that from my stance on her Mother Beast transformation. I didn't get anything wrong: it's how I viewed the material. There's no build up to her interest in UBs: just one mention then suddenly she's ok with being abducted?
 
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Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
Again, I understand the "full picture" but I'm giving credit to the more favorable attributes of Lusamine (for me and a good portion of the fanbsse, that is). I don't need to read that because I've played both sets of Alola games. So I'll pass on that. Idrc about it being an one dimensional analysis as I'm not looking at the full scope of Lusamine as a character

You seem to be getting my interpretation of Lusamine's anime characterization wrong. Am I denying she's a bad parent? No. Don't see how you get that from my stance on her Mother Beast transformation. I didn't get anything wrong: it's how I viewed the material.
I'm not in the mood to argue and I gotten that stance due to how you said the family dynamic was butchered compared to the games, when to me... it really wasn't save for taking away the abusive parent aspect that IMO, I am glad that they took that away while still making Lusamine a lousy parent. Like I said, once it became clear that aspect is removed in the adaptation, the fan base complained because it wasn't what they wanted.
 

Ignition

Don’t be so hostile over a children’s franchise
I'm not in the mood to argue and I gotten that stance due to how you said the family dynamic was butchered compared to the games, when to me... it really wasn't save for taking away the abusive parent aspect that IMO, I am glad that they took that away while still making Lusamine a lousy parent. Like I said, once it became clear that aspect is removed in the adaptation, the fan base complained because it wasn't what they wanted.
Not what I said but cool. You're really blowing the "complaining" out of proportion.
 

AznKei

Team girls in Trials Of Mana FTW! XD
It was ok. Then again I'm watching it casually, so I don't expect much.

I watched most of the episodes raw and only once, gave my impressions and moved on without much thought about them, but some scenes interested me in a way I'm watching them more than once.

Still disappointed that the companions aren't doing much but that's more of the show/status quo issue, as it also happened in XY, and the recent movies.

I didn't care about Ash, so him being a butt monkey didn't bother me, nor the slaptick comedy since I watched similar animes in the past.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The arcs are kinda underwhelming (though I thought the island travel arcs to Akala and Ula Ula were decent), it definitely feels like SM is doing a different approach this time, being more interested in bringing life to the fillers and more laid back stories than the big climax arcs. I mean they're not awful, but given some are key to backstory or climax development, they really fall short in places and in some cases even feel badly patched together, especially the AF arc.

It's also strange because a lot of them do still have good points, just not in the key departments that are expected. The AF arc screwed over Nebby and Lillie's backstory, on the other hand though, character interactions like Ash and Lillie's bonding or the latter's solo episode with Gladion, they were REALLY nicely done. The Akala and Ula Ula arcs didn't really span out world building of their respective islands (though later return trips did vindicate that a little) though they did offer some neccessary tune ups, and again some neat character interactions.
 

mockingjay

swift and lol
the tone is all over the place for this series and if i were gamefreak i'd have second hand embarrassment at how my games are being adapted
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
mockingjay said:
the tone is all over the place for this series and if i were gamefreak i'd have second hand embarrassment at how my games are being adapted
I doubt they even care, however. So long as the anime is profitable and they get their cut of the cash, I figure that Game Freak would support any decision that the writers make with the SM series.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
On a recent similar thread, asking how people felt about the trial captains in the anime, most responses talked about each trial captain individually, with things such as character traits, personality, and character development, while I took a different route and answered how I felt about the concept of trial captains in the anime, since they're in general handled so differently from the games.

Once again in this thread, unlike most of you who individually analyzed each arc, I'm going to talk about how i feel about the concept of arcs in the SM anime, as it is quite different from previous generations of the anime and brings about a unique change.

Because I only watch the dub, the only island arc I've seen is Akala, and I can say that when it happened it disappointed me, and it's the first time I truly missed the traveling aspect of the series. Up until that point, not having the traveling aspect of the anime didn't make me too sad, but when the Akala arc happened is when it first became clear to me how they were going to handle the other 3 islands, only having short arcs of about 7 episodes, and maybe visiting them at random other times for like 1 or 2 episodes, but with the massively vast majority of episodes happening on Melemele. In this sense, I do not at all like the arc concept in SM as it only shows the other 3 islands for WAY less time than Melemele. Before the Akala arc, I wasn't sure how the other islands would be handled, and I thought there was a chance that they would literally shift to that island for a massive chunk of episodes (30-40+) just like they had done on Melemele, which would have been fine with me. Once the Akala arc happened, it caused me to hate this "island arc concept" SM introduced, presumably for all 3 of the other 3 islands.

Now to discuss the other arcs, I've only seen 1 other arc and part of another, in the dub, which would be AF and UG. In terms of AF, I'm not sure why they made it a straight 11-episode arc the way they did rather than scattering key episodes throughout the whole series as was done for TM/TA, TG, and to a lesser extent TF. Unlike Akala island, where it was a field trip, there was no reason to cram all those 11 episodes together that way, and it made it feel rushed and like it didn't have enough buildup.

So far, the next arc appears to be UG which has had only 3 episodes so far, but so far to me seems to be handled better since the episodes are more spread out, similar to arcs in the first 6 generations of the anime, which I like:
Lusamine first mentions the concept in SM055, then there's a 6-episode gap until the first actual mission in SM061, then there's a 7-episode gap until the second mission in SM069, which I like, and isn't as rushed.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Now you mention it, the UG arc is probably the best ongoing plot they've had so far, largely because rather than being a continuous string of episodes that have to be compressed into an ongoing story, it's been largely a load of episodic plots fit between episodes with the odd small arc dedicated to it. The Necrozma arc wasn't amazing, but aside from releasing Poipole, we've still got Ultra Beasts to introduce, so I doubt it is meant to be a proper swan song for the UG premise.

It's strange how SM is actually doing a better job with the more episodic stories this series rather than the big arcs. Usually it's the other way round, with many dull fillers and formula based episodes padding things until the big hyped up main arc is finished up.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
Now to discuss the other arcs, I've only seen 1 other arc and part of another, in the dub, which would be AF and UG. In terms of AF, I'm not sure why they made it a straight 11-episode arc the way they did rather than scattering key episodes throughout the whole series as was done for TM/TA, TG, and to a lesser extent TF. Unlike Akala island, where it was a field trip, there was no reason to cram all those 11 episodes together that way, and it made it feel rushed and like it didn't have enough buildup.
Your right on how the AF arc was crammed into a continuous arc. Either the anime writers wanted to get the S/M plot/ Lillie trauma over with before moving on to the US/UM stuff.

Or and this is a theory I put together due to reading the forums, the anime writters KNEW the instant the Aether Arc comes, they are going to have to put up with a lot of people going to conclusions (Often hoping for the worse.) before it is allowed to be finished, particularly where the Aether Family drama is going and how it will end.
I personally like this better than in the vanilla games since in the anime, we have better reasons to care that Lillie and the others were rescuing Lusamine "rather than hoping Lusamine dies" as well as show that the Aether Family had a healthy relationship before things went down hill, rather than make it all informed attributes.
I would rather have that meat of the drama come up sooner than put up with what the fan base was hoping and eventually seeing them rant when it isn't what they wanted. That is why they crammed all those episodes in. (That and when Lusamine got dragged into Ultra Space, it really can't wait in a realistic time to have filler pad it out. Even though the Solgaleo evolving episode is one of my least favorite episodes and it could have been shorted to the end of the previous episode.)
 
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Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
The Ultra Guardians episodes are very different in that they're not really a cohesive story. The Buzzwole episode had no connection to the Poipole episode which had no connection to the Celesteela episode. They're individual stories contained within a single episode, but they don't join together as one connected story, and in that it is very different from the Nebby arc. Lillie saw Gladion with Silvally which caused her to want to remember everything and find out what happened in the following episode, and that caused the history with Faba and Nihilego to be unveiled to everyone including Lusamine. Faba being found out caused him to want to save his career, and to do that he kidnapped Nebby and opened an Ultra Wormhole. And Faba's actions were causal for Nihilego to appear and take Lusamine away, which in turn caused Lillie and the others to go and rescue her. Here one event leads to the next, which flows naturally into a closely connected story. For the Ultra Beasts there is nothing about Buzzwole that caused Poipole to appear. There is nothing in Poipole's capture episode that caused Celesteela to appear either. They're disconnected events, so it makes far more natural sense to spread them out a bit.
 

Redstar45

The Anime/Special's canon know it all.
I feel like the anime team should take another look at Pokemon Adventures manga, specifically the original RBG, Y, and GSC story arcs. Some of you may have hear me call them story arcs as a whole and technically they are labelled that way however... their more like seasons madeup of story arcs than a whole story arc. Anyways, I recommend you guys try it out, it does everything that the Sun and Moon anime series tries to do right including giving the focus spotlight to multiple characters across different storylines succesfully. In fact, the GSC story arc doesn't just tell the story of the main characters but, like the japanese movie title of The Power of Us, it tells EVERYONE'S STORY and holy crap it's a exciting experience seeing the Pokemon world at so many different points of views, gym leaders, villains, seemingly minor supporting characters that are actually far more important than you may have thought as a kid. It's just so freaking amazing, there's even a Gym Leader Tournament where all 16, YES 16, Gym Leaders fight against each other, it's so freaking epic and you know what? The most interesting storyline out of all the 16 Gym Leaders is actually Janine, a character rarely explored in other adaptations, who's confused and angry because her father, Koga, disappeared and she has no idea what to do with her life since she has no master anymore and we get to see the WORLD OF POKEMON from her point of view. These are all story arcs that are built together, built up to something in the end and unlike the anime, we, Adventure fans, actually get to see the GS Ball in action in one of them lol!

This is the kind of stuff that would be awesome to see in animated form. Honestly I don't think taking away the spotlight from Ash a lot, I mean like giving other characters dedicated storylines spanning different episodes long, will hurt the anime series, I think it will enhance it! For example, Giovanni. Personally, I think the anime's take on Giovanni is too hollow. They portray him as a greedy power-hungry businessman with no other reason explained. Like Pokemon Adventures, they could look at Giovanni's character from the games more faithfully, that he is a power hungry businessman but he's doing it for the sake of becoming a stronger trainer, to be the very best, the POKEMON MASTER but through darker means. I mean let's be honest, if you read Pokemon Adventures or seen Pokemon Generations/Origins than you know Giovanni's character is severely underused in the anime. It's something Ash could relate to with Giovanni but at the same time heavily oppose him.

I feel like the anime crew can learn a lot from Pokemon Adventures... or rather... they can built upon their success with the XYZ series which in many ways feels like an adaptation of the original RGB story arc. Honestly, I can't recall a single bad episode from the XYZ series, even the filler content were really good. I feel like if they could just built that into separate story arcs that later feel more connected over time, building up to some big finale like Pokemon Adventures, they'd built more interesting storylines. The thing is they have succeeded in a way with XYZ, so they can do it with full-fledge story arcs. Honestly though I'm keeping my expectations low, I'm just hoping they don't go back to the stone ages of the Kanto, Johto and Hoenn filler.

Talking about this has given me an idea for a thread...
That would be so pointless and i started to dislike that you bash Pokemon anime show not to be like the Pokemon special manga .
And i am saying that as Pokemon special/Adventure fan you are pretty overhype the Pokemon special manga too much and as Pokemon anime show fan this had nothing to do with the Pokemon anime right now!
 
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LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
The Ultra Guardians episodes are very different in that they're not really a cohesive story. The Buzzwole episode had no connection to the Poipole episode which had no connection to the Celesteela episode. They're individual stories contained within a single episode, but they don't join together as one connected story, and in that it is very different from the Nebby arc. Lillie saw Gladion with Silvally which caused her to want to remember everything and find out what happened in the following episode, and that caused the history with Faba and Nihilego to be unveiled to everyone including Lusamine. Faba being found out caused him to want to save his career, and to do that he kidnapped Nebby and opened an Ultra Wormhole. And Faba's actions were causal for Nihilego to appear and take Lusamine away, which in turn caused Lillie and the others to go and rescue her. Here one event leads to the next, which flows naturally into a closely connected story. For the Ultra Beasts there is nothing about Buzzwole that caused Poipole to appear. There is nothing in Poipole's capture episode that caused Celesteela to appear either. They're disconnected events, so it makes far more natural sense to spread them out a bit.
That's fair but Ash's dream, getting Nebby, introducing characters like Lusamine, Wicke, Faba, and Professor Burnet, taking the field trip to AP, etc., could have all been done much earlier in the series, in several separate episodes. It would have felt less rushed that way. I can agree that basically everything after Lillie seeing Gladion with Silvally needed to happen in a row, but not before that. In fact, spreading it out would have also made the romance between Professors Kukui and Burnet be able to have more moments that made their marriage not seemingly come out of nowhere, if she had appeared more.

Your right on how the AF arc was crammed into a continuous arc. Either the anime writers wanted to get the S/M plot/ Lillie trauma over with before moving on to the US/UM stuff.

Or and this is a theory I put together due to reading the forums, the anime writters KNEW the instant the Aether Arc comes, they are going to have to put up with a lot of people going to conclusions (Often hoping for the worse.) before it is allowed to be finished, particularly where the Aether Family drama is going and how it will end.
I personally like this better than in the vanilla games since in the anime, we have better reasons to care that Lillie and the others were rescuing Lusamine "rather than hoping Lusamine dies" as well as show that the Aether Family had a healthy relationship before things went down hill, rather than make it all informed attributes.
I would rather have that meat of the drama come up sooner than put up with what the fan base was hoping and eventually seeing them rant when it isn't what they wanted. That is why they crammed all those episodes in. (That and when Lusamine got dragged into Ultra Space, it really can't wait in a realistic time to have filler pad it out. Even though the Solgaleo evolving episode is one of my least favorite episodes and it could have been shorted to the end of the previous episode.)
The writers aren't making decisions based on "the fanbase being pissed"
 

shoz999

Sure, sure. Go for it.
That would be so pointless and i started to dislike that you bash Pokemon anime show not to be like the Pokemon special manga .
And i am saying that as Pokemon special/Adventure fan you are pretty overhype the Pokemon special manga too much and as Pokemon anime show fan this had nothing to do with the Pokemon anime right now!
Criticism, praise and looking how the anime could possibly be improved for the enjoyment of anime fans such as yourself is not bashing however I do apologize for whatever sort of offense you thought I made. Also you may or may not be right that I am pretty overhyped but at the same time, what I say has a lot to do with the anime, a comparison that states that it is not impossible for the anime featuring Ash, a protagonist that many many fans I've noticed around the anime forum have gotten bored of, to reach to greater heights reaching out to the hearts of millions of older and new young fans, even surpassing that of the XYZ season, personally what I think is the best, with the right direction. Instead of seeing this as bashing, you should be excited at the fascinating possibilities that the anime has yet to reach.
 
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Criticism, praise and looking how the anime could possibly be improved for the enjoyment of anime fans such as yourself is not bashing however I do apologize for whatever sort of offense you thought I made.
Please I get that you have different opinions, but stay respectful and polite
 
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