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How do you feel about the SM arcs?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by KenzeyEevee, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. shoz999

    shoz999 Do you wanna try a good Tapu Cocoa? My treat.

    Did I say something rude? Not being sarcastic, being clueless here.
  2. You are kinda harsh against him
  3. shoz999

    shoz999 Do you wanna try a good Tapu Cocoa? My treat.

    I don't see how but things tend to fly over my head. As you can see I am quite clueless and clumsy on what is happening here because of the lack of examples both of you have stated. Bashing and harsh are vague to me, I need more concrete details to realize any possible errors I made. For example, what you and the other guy sees as harsh and bashing, I saw as simply another respectful discussion that gets the inner fanboy going. However I apologize to RedStar45 for whatever harsh disrespectful words I've said. Again, you and the other guy has to be more clear otherwise this is going to lead to a huge misunderstanding.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  4. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    That wasn't what I said, the writers do what ever they please and they don't exactly care if they piss certain members of the fanbase off with what ever they make. (Having Tobias show up in D/P and being a diablous ex machina being the better example. Followed by X/Y/Z where they hyped Ash Greninja to kingdom come... and have him lose in the most marvelous fashion I seen.)
  5. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I think it's a simple case that the show is so ongoing that something ultimately has to get more time and devotion put into it.

    DP and XY are often praised for having good main arcs, but many complain they both suffered from some of the stalest filler material, and some other pacing issues like wrapping things up hastily and cheaply (eg. rushed league results besides the main rivals, Greninja abruptly released with a quick hand wave excuse, Tobias). Basically to keep quality focus on the main story, other stuff had to be ignored and done in a slapdash manner.

    Usually a series that gives the other elements proper focus dumbs down the quality control of the main arcs. OS/BW/SM all took more divergent routes and instead gave more love and effort to the episodic stories or other elements (eg. BW actually writing effortful Team Rocket faceoffs) and so the main arcs were more sloppily done and had blatant signs of being quickly hashed together here and there.

    AG was probably the in-between route, it was experimenting and tried to keep a consistent effort, but wasn't quite used to all the new formula changes just yet (eg. the villain team arc).
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
    FlygontheRavager likes this.
  6. Redstar45


    To honest i am not watch Pokemon anime currently but occasionally i do watched the few episodes of the Pokemon Sun and Moon anime and i do have say a one good thing about that current series is ......they do Pokemon well then most Pokemon anime ever did with Pokemon
    I do appreciate they did try give a feel of the Pokemon be living creatures that i do really appreciate that so well
    Yeah i do have problem with what they doing with the human characters and the main character ( how they mess up my boi Satoshi/ Ash)
    Spider-Phoenix likes this.
  7. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    Arcs are crap. Delete them and stick a slapstick/SoL label on the SM anime in general and send it over to that genre. It's obvious SM can't make an arc for the life of it, so why not make it all filler instead
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  8. Dragalge

    Dragalge Arctozolt

    How do you stick a label on something that's deleted?
  9. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    The overall SM anime, not the arcs. My bad, I should have specified.

    Point still stands

    Also, I would like to add that the SM anime should also remove all battles as they're nowhere near as relevant as they should be and they don't contribute to the SoL genre as well.

    If you decide to basically ignore one aspect of Pokemon and showcase another to ginormous proportions, why not delete any parts that don't contribute to the overall theme of the show? Furthermore, why not bring all OS characters back as well since none of the SM characters are even half as developed as OS characters? Hell, if you gonna pander, pander WELL! Go all in!

    Screw having actually developed captures, stacking up adorbs Pokemon for marketing also seems like a great idea. Poipole was a great example!

    May I mention the beeyotiful faces that emphasize expression and showcase how truly dynamic the SM cast is?

    Satire, but not really, don't ban me mods pls thx

    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  10. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple Sure, sure.

    tried to watch some of them. didn't care much for it

    You didn't say anything disrespectful. That guy is just mini-modding, ignore it lol
  11. shoz999

    shoz999 Do you wanna try a good Tapu Cocoa? My treat.

    Turns out a little misunderstanding, everything's been respectfully settled.
    Dragalge and keepitsimple like this.
  12. Dragalge

    Dragalge Arctozolt

    You’re good lol

    In regards to the “marketing adorbs Pokemon”, this anime has always been a huge, fat advertisement for the games. Nothing has changed here.

    And they still do battles but it’s just that they aren’t the focus this time. Being more of a comedy-based anime doesn’t mean they can’t throw in other things in the mix like battles. Otherwise we wouldn’t have gotten battles from the trials and such. Call them mediocre as you please but to say they haven’t done these is wrong (or ignored).

    And lastly, Misty and Brocks return was to tie in with the 20th anniversary and their return were just two episodes... out of 90 altogether. It’s not like 70% of the show thus far has tried to replicate OS. This isn’t anything like BW where it went poorly executed.
  13. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    To be fair, the number of actual finished developed battles that were worth watching this series isn't much lower than the previous series.

    I mean sure XY had way more battles, but aside from the gym/league arc, what did most of them consist of? TR curb stomps that required no effort or strategy at all, jobber COTD matches which were usually uneventful, Serena's unfinished training matches that usually ended before she had to demonstrate any real strategy, villain matches that nearly always take advantage of the fact they aren't official and end with DEMs or interruptions. It was superficial action just to say it was there (and likely because they couldn't think of anything more creative for the twerps to do than spam a couple attacks), the battles they actually put real agency and interesting strategy into were about the same as SM, the same can probably be said for every other series, if not MORE so since even the gym matches were occasionally tainted in earlier series.

    Also keep in mind half the cast aren't even really battlers this series, they don't really benefit from being put into them all the time (Mallow gets a "battle" nearly every bit of spotlight she has but what exactly does that do for her?). We can't hand wave everything else the protagonists can do to gain character agency as meaningless fluff.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  14. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    They gave Oshawott better development than Poipole.

    Everything else I said was satire(sorta)

    They'be brought them back twice now

    This is a bunch of bunk.

    Battles are already at a much lower quality than of XY/XYZ because they got rid of the 3D camera and went back to OS style battles. And even the best SM battles don't hold a candle to some of the gym battles and league arc. Not even close

    I can name a couple of these battles outside of gym/league arc.
    - Diantha v Ash
    - Alain v Ash(2)
    - Sawyer v Ash(2)
    - Clemont v Ash(2)
    - Ash v Korrina(2)
    - Korrina v her Grandfather
    - Entire Flare Arc
    - Goodra arc
    - Ninja arc(2)
    - Clemont vs Clembot
    - Seena vs that twig dude
    - enter many many other battles that didn't have your specifications.
    - @Genaller can add more

    This list already contains battles that are 10x better than SM's with better development for both Pokemon and trainers and this list probably has more battles than the entirety of SM.

    Your post is satire like my other post right?
    Xuxuba, JC317, Spider-Phoenix and 6 others like this.
  15. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Except many of the battles you listed had spurious progression (eg. Goodra learning a DEM move to curb stomp nearly every battle in his arc), were ended or decided prematurely (AshGreninja's 'black out' battles), or were barely shown onscreen (eg. a lot of the Flare battles). Some worked in the sense of action and development, but that's the thing. SM isn't nearly revolved around battling as a storytelling method as XY and previous series were. Even Ash is embracing other methods of training this series.

    Battling has become a more spurious form of plot progression to me anyway, because very rarely now will they play a full and proper battle all the way the through unless 1. it's an effortless curb stomp or 2. it's absolutely positively vital to a character's development or arc. I got sick of so many episodes revolving around a battle that gets half finished then, bam, Team Rocket appears, easy curb stomp. At least in many SM episodes they just take a plot or activity for the protagonists and just play it all the way through, making them feel much more involved.

    Yeah the Ultra Guardian face offs aren't battle heavy or super climatic, but they're played fully and the twerps are made to finish the situation on their own in some clever way. In a previous series, they'd battle for half an episode, not get anywhere, then something like Team Rocket would come in and make it easy, thus diluting the twerps' contribution to the whole thing besides spamming power. It's flash vs substance.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
    FlygontheRavager and Zhydra like this.
  16. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    I think Celesteela was the only one of the UG episodes anywhere close to that formula. (Celesteela is a Rocket after all so Team Rocket getting involved HAD to happen.) Otherwise, the Beasts were handled through brain power and out of the box thinking.
    FlygontheRavager likes this.
  17. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Plus even with that Team Rocket were just a diversion making the problem worse, the non-battlers still had to strategise a way to handle Celesteela while Ash and Kiawe kept the Meowth bot busy. In other words TR didn't cut off the plot to prevent the twerps needing to be effective protagonists like they usually do.

    The formula for nearly every 'antagonistic Pokemon' episode pre-SM:

    * Pokemon attacks/bugs the twerps.
    * Twerps try to stop it but fail or stalemate.
    * Team Rocket intervenes and tries to take Pokemon.
    * Ash and Pokemon team up against Team Rocket in the easiest battle ever.
    * All is well.

    Notice that, besides beating their recurring loser opponent the exact same way, the twerps don't really have much unique effect to how that formula flows. There's a real lack of character agency in making so many episodes about battles that will obviously never get finished and need a very easy plot device like Team Rocket to butt in so there's no real third act, while SM's plots, while maybe not as eventful and flashy, are at least full more fully realised and character driven.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
    FlygontheRavager and Zhydra like this.
  18. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    You must be joking. Seriously rewatch XY/XYZ because it's obvious you haven't watched it in a long time or you only watched certain parts of it

    TR was a gag and they've always been a gag. We'd all love TR development and seriousness, but considering how when they got development in BW, and everyone hated them for it, and their development in SM is taking from other characters' development, I'm fine with them being gags

    Booty shaking battle tactics!

    You're right about that, SM doesn't even have a story to tell, and the stories it is telling are so crappy they might as well not have a story.

    Ash-Greninja's blackouts and Goodra's " DEM " all served a purpose and developed both Ash and the respective Poke.

    The formula for SM antagonistic scenarios
    - make a couple of funny faces
    - have terrible battles
    - not have any battles
    - be a joke in general
    Xuxuba, JC317, Spider-Phoenix and 2 others like this.
  19. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    The thing is a lot of the time the twerps weren't given Team Rocket or a REALLY important battle, I often feel like they are being dragged along the plot. They can get good internal development but externally they're very limited, and more often need things HAPPENING TO THEM besides their most key arc episodes.

    Say what you will about Ash's battle record in SM but he at least manages to drive the plot forward in other ways, he can be clever and intuitive while in a lot of episodes in earlier series the bulk of his involvement was observing a COTD's dilemma and then calling 'Pikachu, Thunderbolt!' on Team Rocket. Nearly every time things bulked up to something remotely more complex, even just Team Rocket but them not going down in one hit, something had to happen to dumb it all back down for him, while in SM Ash can be the driving force of many plots himself.

    It helps SM doesn't have tons and tons of antagonistic scenarios because most of the heroes aren't so bland that they need a bad guy or straw loser around them 24/7. In episodes pre-SM that didn't involve this what did we get:

    -angst over how good they are.
    -exposition over their goal and what it is.
    -train their Pokemon in a very nondescript way (eg. spam moves in the air).
    -have one of their Pokemon randomly boost with zero involvement on the trainer's part.
    SH65 and FlygontheRavager like this.
  20. mockingjay

    mockingjay swift and lol

    that one emotional litten episode was one of the best episodes of the series overall - and the writers should have stuck with those kind of episodes instead of reverting back to their usual formula
    Twilight-Kun and Spider-Phoenix like this.

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