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How much does Ash affect your enjoyment of a series?

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Maybe I'm the only person that believes this, but I believe Ash is holding back his companions from an out of universe standpoint. I feel like the writers are trying to make sure every side character fails at their goal because Ash isn't allowed to reach his. Which is a farce because that's not how storytelling works. Doing so would shallow the world-building by making things so much more centric around a single character.

You're underestimating Ash's existence. Removing Ash from Pokemon will be like removing Mickey Mouse from Disney (as far as mascots go.) Just because the kids weren't' alive when OS/AG/DP/etc was originally airing, it doesn't mean that they won't know about it or eventually.



The MM analogy falls apart when Ash is not the icon of the franchise rather Pikachu is. Ash is more like removing Goofy or Donald or even Pluto.



There's also why we have reruns. His replacement won't be well received and won't even be a shadow of Ash, even if it's his kid. And even then, it takes away "the eternal 10 year old" and glamour that kids & adults see in Ash in themselves. Team Rocket's replaceable and would've gotten replaced many times had it not been for the fan popularity. It's unsure if kids will continue or not continue to watch Pokémon if Ash is replaced but the staff themselves will get hit with a large blow of disgust from media since Ash and his Pikachu are iconic.



While I do see an argument for Ash's replacements not being well received (First Installment Wins after all), I do not see the problem with simply replacing Ash when he's run his course because he will run his course. Going back to the Mickey Mouse analogy, there have been multiple iterations of the famous mouse, all of which are pretty famous. Sometimes Mickey is a king (Kingdom Hearts), a commoner with a sword (Three Musketeers), or a deranged sadist depending on choices of the Player (Epic Mickey). Ash's model currently is having a linear history that is plagued with inconsistency which ultimately was the roadblock to the comics industry which is currently killing the industry.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
Maybe I'm the only person that believes this, but I believe Ash is holding back his companions from an out of universe standpoint. I feel like the writers are trying to make sure every side character fails at their goal because Ash isn't allowed to reach his. Which is a farce because that's not how storytelling works. Doing so would shallow the world-building by making things so much more centric around a single character.





The MM analogy falls apart when Ash is not the icon of the franchise rather Pikachu is. Ash is more like removing Goofy or Donald or even Pluto.







While I do see an argument for Ash's replacements not being well received (First Installment Wins after all), I do not see the problem with simply replacing Ash when he's run his course because he will run his course. Going back to the Mickey Mouse analogy, there have been multiple iterations of the famous mouse, all of which are pretty famous. Sometimes Mickey is a king (Kingdom Hearts), a commoner with a sword (Three Musketeers), or a deranged sadist depending on choices of the Player (Epic Mickey). Ash's model currently is having a linear history that is plagued with inconsistency which ultimately was the roadblock to the comics industry which is currently killing the industry.

Well dawn being a companion as well didn't stopped in her being overshadowed or even in the various villainous arc like TG, TF or even aether foundation everyone were getting csreentime.Same way cilan was very good in the first half of BW and was more popular(even than ash). May and serena were excellant in there own series and brock and misty were there own characters in kanto arc. Now if you compare them to characters like max, clemont or bonnie who just traveling without any reason or having any dreams then they will be overshadowed. Besides MC always gets way more screentime than other characters, go and watch naruto, dbz or even yugioh series where male hero does practically everything. As for not reaching the goals that is the decision of the executive and frankly speaking if they reach there goals and dreams in such a short timespan then anyone could become an engineer or doctor while just sty ding in college itself. This notion that ash steals the companion's thunder is highly over exaggerated and not always true.

Ash is the donald duck and if I am right donald duck is still by far 2nd most iconic character in disney. Ash's replacement will be very difficult to find. He is credited in bringing a n entire generation of fans to the anime, how many of people have come while watching dawn or may or misty.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Maybe I'm the only person that believes this, but I believe Ash is holding back his companions from an out of universe standpoint. I feel like the writers are trying to make sure every side character fails at their goal because Ash isn't allowed to reach his. Which is a farce because that's not how storytelling works. Doing so would shallow the world-building by making things so much more centric around a single character.
While this does make a lot of sense, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, they don't lose simply because Ash himself can't achieve his goal but rather, you can't expect to achieve it on the first try and should expect to keep working harder and never give up, following your own path towards achieving it. A good example would be Serena. Yes she was a natural in her field but fan favoritism for a familiar face cost her the Master Class. Something that was completely out of her control. She had the chance to study under Palermo, someone who trained Aria herself and promised by being her apprentice, she'll surely surpass Aria. Serena could've took her offer but in her mind, she knew it wasn't what would've fit her. She knew her problems and wanted to solve it a different way by challenging Contests to improve the skills she's already attained by pure determination. What I'm trying to say that yes, the characters didn't achieve their final goals of winning the League, Grand Festival, or becoming Kalos Queen but they don't give up just because they didn't win it the first try, they keep going and it's the journey that counts. And besides, Tracey achieved his dream of becoming Professor Oak's assistant despite traveling with Ash... actually, the third wheel characters (Brock, Dento, and Clemont) are more likely to achieve their goals since they're realistic and easily achievable

The MM analogy falls apart when Ash is not the icon of the franchise rather Pikachu is. Ash is more like removing Goofy or Donald or even Pluto.
Ok yes, let me rephrase it. Pikachu may be the icon of the Pokémon franchise but Ash is the icon of the Pokémon anime and better yet, Ash having a Pikachu is the reason why Pikachu is popular and recognizable to begin with judging on the choices of why the staff chose Ash to have a Pikachu. (debatable of course)






While I do see an argument for Ash's replacements not being well received (First Installment Wins after all), I do not see the problem with simply replacing Ash when he's run his course because he will run his course.
I can agree with this


... if he had a chance of being replaced which is far gone. Some can argue he already has while some will argue, he has a long way to go. Even if he's ran his course, they can simply stop his journey and show off other people's journeys just as well or even concurrently which has happened before (Pokémon Chronicles, Mega Evolution Acts, Pokémon Generations, Pokémon Origins, etc.)

Going back to the Mickey Mouse analogy, there have been multiple iterations of the famous mouse, all of which are pretty famous. Sometimes Mickey is a king (Kingdom Hearts), a commoner with a sword (Three Musketeers), or a deranged sadist depending on choices of the Player (Epic Mickey). Ash's model currently is having a linear history that is plagued with inconsistency which ultimately was the roadblock to the comics industry which is currently killing the industry.
Considering that Ash isn't easily changeable like Mickey Mouse, he won't have those various iterations of himself unless it's the movies whom has his character intact despite whatever dangers and roles he's applying himself into. I refuse to believe Ash is inconsistent. He's a simple boy with big dreams on a journey with his Pikachu, not an interchangeable mouse whose personality and antics varies with whoever writes him. I think Mickey Mouse was a bad analogy to compare to with Ash Ketchum since Disney themselves barely use him despite being the mascot.
 
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akshat216

Member
In fact, I think the fandom has been too harsh towards Ash due to how well the others perform. Honestly, May's Hoenn Grand festival journey aside, every other companion has managed to overachieve. Dawn became top-4 in Sinnoh and Serena apparently was the best performer behind Aria (a 20+ age person) despite only debuting. I think the writers feel that they cannot have Ash's companions lag behind him to keep the fandom happy, despite him being a veteran. So, it is rather the companions holding Ash back as unless they are prodigious, they can't be the best in their first appearance in a competitive stage. Surely it can't be that easy.

Ash, on the other hand, always comes in top 16 at least in a tournament, where 200+ people from the whole country plus visiting trainers from abroad only qualify for by getting 8 gym badges. The only time he has been defeated by someone his age was by Ritchie (Bad refereeing and luck) and Cameron (**** team due to lack of knowledge of the region. Heck, those who were supposed to help him in Iris and Cilan themselves had **** teams. Plus Cameron had a Ferrothorn, a riolu and especially a Hydreigon, which was strange given his character). He isn't allowed to develop anymore, but that's because how perfect he became at the end of Sinnoh and Kalos. Resets are necessary with him.
Comparisons with game Main character do him no good too, as game isn't anime. He gets a new Dex after he arrives somewhere, he doesn't know base stats, and dodging is a fare tactic in a battle and not random like in games. Plus the league isn't anything like beating E4 and champion while using as many potions etc as you want in battle.
Honestly I still enjoy him, love his Pokemon and root for him. I also get miffed when people want him to have even less focus then he already has in SM, though I understand the view. His presence doesn't make me lose interest in the show.
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
You're underestimating Ash's existence. Removing Ash from Pokemon will be like removing Mickey Mouse from Disney (as far as mascots go.) Just because the kids weren't' alive when OS/AG/DP/etc was originally airing, it doesn't mean that they won't know about it or eventually. There's also why we have reruns. His replacement won't be well received and won't even be a shadow of Ash, even if it's his kid. And even then, it takes away "the eternal 10 year old" and glamour that kids & adults see in Ash in themselves. Team Rocket's replaceable and would've gotten replaced many times had it not been for the fan popularity. It's unsure if kids will continue or not continue to watch Pokémon if Ash is replaced but the staff themselves will get hit with a large blow of disgust from media since Ash and his Pikachu are iconic.

The face of the franchise and mascot is Pikachu, not Ash, and I'd argue that's true even in the anime. Unless it's different in Japan, I highly doubt kids and adults think of Ash that deeply as the "eternal 10-year-old" within them.

Kids will absolutely keep watching Pokemon. Did people stop watching Yu-Gi-Oh after Yugi left? Yes, it would be different at first with a new protagonist, but as long as the show keeps doing what it does best in showing off the Pokemon, battles, game region and plot element, etc., then it will be fine.

I also think they aren't disrespecting Ash by keeping him static because he isn't static. Yes Ash has remained the same person but he does learn from the past (most of the time). Ash doesn't have to one up himself in each League just to see his progress. In real life, in competitive sports, the person isn't going to consistently go up in ranks (something Ash has been fortunate to do) every year. Even with practice, strong Pokémon, and the power of bonds, there's always going to be someone stronger than him or an unexpected event or force pushing him from winning.

This isn't like One Piece with arc after arc, with a large enough story yet to realize and a slate of characters to develop to keep going for another decade.

Yes, Pokemon Master is a semi-vague goal, but winning a league and challenging the E4 are not. These are concrete benchmarks that post-XY Ash should reach as the next 'logical' step of his journey.

The anime itself has become a rinse-and-repeat where Ash does the league, drops his Pokemon off at Oak's, and then restarts somewhere else. <-- That can be done with a new character, and there's more room for creative potential.

I don't agree with the argument that there's no point in replacing Ash because the anime will be the same. Well, the fact that it is no longer Ash already implies the show will be different. There's a lot more versatility instead of being tied to the current Ash-centric format.

I honestly think, and of course we will always disagree with this, but it's honestly stupid and extremely unnecessary to replace Ash with his kid or some random beginner/intermediate trainer regardless of if said character will bring something that Ash didn't do. Why create a new character when there's Ash?

Because Ash as a character deserves to reach his goals. He has developed and grown and hit all the milestones along the way to justifiably achieve them. Ash was not originally created to be a Bart Simpson-type of character; OS-DP showed there was going to be an inevitable end.

Nowadays, his personality seems to change each region based on the series tone they want to go for. He's running the risk of becoming less of an actual consistent character and more of a generic slate. He also doesn't deserve another BW 'reset'. Those reasons to me are far more insulting for an iconic character.

I feel like one reason on why they created Alan was to showcase Mega Evolution on a grand scale to face off against Ash. There's a natural reason(s) on why Ash has ever changing traveling companions. What's completely disrespectful and utterly devastating will be to remove Ash from his own damn journey, the boy who's been focused on almost every episode and started it all with his Pikachu on the first episode.

It's not disrespectful at all. On the contrary, the fact that he's been the main character for 20+ years of airing and still trying to reach his big goal is more disrespectful. A lot of people think Ash is a joke, especially when in the games the player character becomes the Champion in a single region, and you have guys like Red or Alain who destroy everyone.

Obviously Ash is more than just league ranks, but those are representative of his character growth. It's not surprising that in DP and XY he performed the best at those leagues.

At this point, they are keeping Ash just for the sake of keeping him. There's really not a whole lot else they can do for his character since they've exhausted most angles over the past two decades.

Considering that Ash isn't easily changeable like Mickey Mouse, he won't have those various iterations of himself unless it's the movies whom has his character intact despite whatever dangers and roles he's applying himself into. I refuse to believe Ash is inconsistent. He's a simple boy with big dreams on a journey with his Pikachu, not an interchangeable mouse whose personality and antics varies with whoever writes him. I think Mickey Mouse was a bad analogy to compare to with Ash Ketchum since Disney themselves barely use him despite being the mascot.

This is exactly what happened with BW, XY, and SM. Other than being friendly and enthusiastic about Pokemon, there's not any flow in his character/personality.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I dunno, there's something enigmatic that comes from Ash's fatigue and the fact he's been doing this for so long. XY and SM play on this especially, and I think that's what makes some of his interactions with the rest of the cast so interesting. He's an Almighty Janitor, he'll never achieve his dream onscreen, but he's an ace in so many other regards because of how long he's been trying.

I don't really see Ash as much of a hinderance to the rest of the cast either, most often it's more the restricting formula or lack of substance when they DO get limelight that interferes with their development. Ash does get the lion's share of limelight, but so would any replacement protagonist that took his place anyway. If anything Ash bounces off and compliments everyone rather nicely in SM, which is sometimes helpful to their characters, the key factor in SM is that half the cast aren't battlers so Ash is usually the most pro-active character in action scenes (though I think there's enough non-action stories to compensate for that).
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
The face of the franchise and mascot is Pikachu, not Ash, and I'd argue that's true even in the anime. Unless it's different in Japan, I highly doubt kids and adults think of Ash that deeply as the "eternal 10-year-old" within them.

Kids will absolutely keep watching Pokemon. Did people stop watching Yu-Gi-Oh after Yugi left? Yes, it would be different at first with a new protagonist, but as long as the show keeps doing what it does best in showing off the Pokemon, battles, game region and plot element, etc., then it will be fine.
Actually, yes, some people did stop watching Yu-Gi-Oh! after Yugi left. I was one of those people. Why did I stop watching the anime? Because Yugi's story was over. And not only was it over, but it felt complete. Sure, I was interested in Duel Monsters, but I was mostly invested in the characters. Once their stories were over and they were no longer main characters, I gradually lost interest. To me, the other Yu-Gi-Oh! series are different stories that happens to take place in the same universe.

The same thing could happen with Pokémon. Pikachu may be the mascot of the franchise, anime included, but Ash is still the human face of the anime. He is what connects all of the series together and makes them feel like one continuous story (more or less). There are viewers who are invested in Ash; and without him, their interest in the anime may waver or even fade.

Yes, Ash does deserve to one day reach his goal and for his story to come to a (satisfying) end, but I don't think he is as replaceable as some people might think. I think he is more closely tied to this franchise than some people may realize.
 

SinnohEevee

Well-Known Member
The need for Ash to constantly appear is what's holding him back. Especially that he needs to represent the male PC of the games.
So in every generation, Ash
* Starts fresh in a new region with only Pikachu and forget what he learned in the previous series
* Makes new friends and catches new Pokémon
* Di the Gym quest (or equivalent)
* Fight an evil team
* Enter a League Conference that he loses due to executive meddling
* Say goodbye to all his friends and leaves his new Pokémon to rot at Oak's.
(Rince and repeat until GF stops making new games, which could be 100 years from now if not more).
 

Navin

MALDREAD
He is what connects all of the series together and makes them feel like one continuous story (more or less). There are viewers who are invested in Ash; and without him, their interest in the anime may waver or even fade.

True, but I would contend that the percentage of viewers that are invested in Ash more so than the Pokemon, battles, etc. is a minority.

Just because the writers can keep recycling Ash series after series doesn't mean they should. Let the boy complete his journey. I don't want to be in residency and see that Ash is still doing the same routine, breaking hopes at the end of each region.
 

andrewscott48209

Well-Known Member
In fact, I think the fandom has been too harsh towards Ash due to how well the others perform. Honestly, May's Hoenn Grand festival journey aside, every other companion has managed to overachieve. Dawn became top-4 in Sinnoh and Serena apparently was the best performer behind Aria (a 20+ age person) despite only debuting. I think the writers feel that they cannot have Ash's companions lag behind him to keep the fandom happy, despite him being a veteran. So, it is rather the companions holding Ash back as unless they are prodigious, they can't be the best in their first appearance in a competitive stage. Surely it can't be that easy.

Ash, on the other hand, always comes in top 16 at least in a tournament, where 200+ people from the whole country plus visiting trainers from abroad only qualify for by getting 8 gym badges. The only time he has been defeated by someone his age was by Ritchie (Bad refereeing and luck) and Cameron (**** team due to lack of knowledge of the region. Heck, those who were supposed to help him in Iris and Cilan themselves had **** teams. Plus Cameron had a Ferrothorn, a riolu and especially a Hydreigon, which was strange given his character). He isn't allowed to develop anymore, but that's because how perfect he became at the end of Sinnoh and Kalos. Resets are necessary with him.
Comparisons with game Main character do him no good too, as game isn't anime. He gets a new Dex after he arrives somewhere, he doesn't know base stats, and dodging is a fare tactic in a battle and not random like in games. Plus the league isn't anything like beating E4 and champion while using as many potions etc as you want in battle.
Honestly I still enjoy him, love his Pokemon and root for him. I also get miffed when people want him to have even less focus then he already has in SM, though I understand the view. His presence doesn't make me lose interest in the show.

Dawn actually made it to the finals.
 

Satoshi & Touko

Peanuts aren't just a nut.
So in every generation, Ash
* Starts fresh in a new region with only Pikachu and forget what he learned in the previous series
* Makes new friends and catches new Pokémon
* Di the Gym quest (or equivalent)
* Fight an evil team
* Enter a League Conference that he loses due to executive meddling
* Say goodbye to all his friends and leaves his new Pokémon to rot at Oak's.
(Rince and repeat until GF stops making new games, which could be 100 years from now if not more).

*nods sadly* And this is why Ash has little effect on my enjoyment of a series. I can enjoy him (and I do; he's my favorite male character), but I can't allow myself to get invested in him. He can only be one fruit in the fruit salad known as the anime.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
The face of the franchise and mascot is Pikachu, not Ash, and I'd argue that's true even in the anime. Unless it's different in Japan, I highly doubt kids and adults think of Ash that deeply as the "eternal 10-year-old" within them.
Not true for the anime. Whenever something anime related is displayed, it's always Ash and Pikachu, not only his Pikachu.

Kids will absolutely keep watching Pokemon. Did people stop watching Yu-Gi-Oh after Yugi left? Yes, it would be different at first with a new protagonist, but as long as the show keeps doing what it does best in showing off the Pokemon, battles, game region and plot element, etc., then it will be fine.
In that case, they might as well continued the Mystery Dungeon shorts or episodes focused only on the Pokémon like the Tiny Trio Adventure episode. But it's don't.


This isn't like One Piece with arc after arc, with a large enough story yet to realize and a slate of characters to develop to keep going for another decade.
That's because One Piece is a highly planned out graphic novel series with a more mature demographic. And the only characters that stay are merely Ash, Pikachu, and the TRio. The latter on the other hand have been in danger many times of being replaced considering they can use the regional villain organizations but are only here because of fan popularity. Ash isn't Team Rocket. Not once have they thought of replacing Ash, everyone else but him since this is his journey.

Yes, Pokemon Master is a semi-vague goal, but winning a league and challenging the E4 are not. These are concrete benchmarks that post-XY Ash should reach as the next 'logical' step of his journey.
Which he can... and will. All we know is that winning the League in the anime will make you the region's Champion. We haven't even seen the Champion challenging the E4 after becoming Champion.

The anime itself has become a rinse-and-repeat where Ash does the league, drops his Pokemon off at Oak's, and then restarts somewhere else. <-- That can be done with a new character, and there's more room for creative potential.
Yes, but not for Alola. Ash has different goals now that there isn't a league yet in Alola, which isn't a "rinse and repeat". He drops off his Pokémon at Oak's to showcase and use the new region's Pokémon and challenges the regional League on his own. Adding a new protagonist won't change the anime's "rinse and repeat" status quo since you've reduced it to just Ash getting new Pokémon, dropping it off at Professor Oak's ranch, and competing in the League. Yes anyone can do that, which is why Ash has new traveling companions every saga yet it won't change anything if Ash is replaced.

I don't agree with the argument that there's no point in replacing Ash because the anime will be the same. Well, the fact that it is no longer Ash already implies the show will be different.
And that's a good thing? Unless you're one of those fans who think Pokémon should mature simply because you're older, I don't think it'll change much. Only we've had that was with Alan and despite people loving (or hating) him, the Mega Evolution Acts were merely a set up to a bigger arc.

There's a lot more versatility instead of being tied to the current Ash-centric format.
???? Uh... this show has ALWAYS been Ash centric.

Because Ash as a character deserves to reach his goals. He has developed and grown and hit all the milestones along the way to justifiably achieve them. Ash was not originally created to be a Bart Simpson-type of character; OS-DP showed there was going to be an inevitable end.
If there's anything this show ever taught you, it was that no one, even the best of the best, gets to achieve their final goal even if he/she "deserves" it. I saw no inevitable end after the end of DP. Ash learned from his mistakes, took in the advice and experience he encountered, and continued on to his journey. Ash is going to have more goals, obstacles, and milestones in his career.

There's reasons on why they don't clearly define what a Pokémon Master is.

Nowadays, his personality seems to change each region based on the series tone they want to go for. He's running the risk of becoming less of an actual consistent character and more of a generic slate. He also doesn't deserve another BW 'reset'. Those reasons to me are far more insulting for an iconic character.
What? His personality doesn't change each region. Yes we see certain sides of him given the situation but his whole character hasn't changed. And a generic slate? That's funny considering some people has always found him to be generic or boring no matter how mature or competent battler he is perceived.


It's not disrespectful at all. On the contrary, the fact that he's been the main character for 20+ years of airing and still trying to reach his big goal is more disrespectful.
So it's less disrespectful for the staff to just write him off? To give up on him for a young, fresh face no one won't know nor care about at first? His big goal isn't just merely winning a League. It's becoming a Pokémon Master, an undefinable goal he himself may not know what it's entirely about but the journey itself that he experiences that counts. Given the actions he shown, he may want to win the regional League but even if he doesn't, he doesn't let the loss bring him down and is only competing just to face off against strong Trainers. He wouldn't have even stayed in Alola if he was only in it to win the League but we know he has other priorities.

A lot of people think Ash is a joke, especially when in the games the player character becomes the Champion in a single region, and you have guys like Red or Alain who destroy everyone.
The anime /=/ the games. We're not in control of Ash and if we were, he would surely win the League in a single region. But sadly, he is merely an average Trainer. Poor Ash, people will only like him if he wins the League. :( ..... Now that's the real joke.

Obviously Ash is more than just league ranks, but those are representative of his character growth. It's not surprising that in DP and XY he performed the best at those leagues.
Considering that you said that a lot of people think he's a joke for not winning a single League (ignoring the Orange Islands League) and continue to mention the sagas where he was ranked best, yes, he is just league ranks or he must be some stoic/serious/non bumbling idiot a.k.a. "mature", and strong battler to you. His career is his representative of his character growth. Ignore that he showed maturity or any of his regular traits in that inferior BW or SM sagas.

At this point, they are keeping Ash just for the sake of keeping him. There's really not a whole lot else they can do for his character since they've exhausted most angles over the past two decades.
Or maybe it's because he has a never ending journey? I don't know, they've been doing quite a lot with his character lately that wasn't out of character or reimagining him as something he's not like those iterations of Mickey Mouse.

This is exactly what happened with BW, XY, and SM. Other than being friendly and enthusiastic about Pokemon, there's not any flow in his character/personality.
Because he isn't what you imagine him to act like? He isn't consistently ranking up in the League? Ash's character/personality has always been clear throughout the sagas. Yes he grew out of his old antics but he wasn't some great character that stopped developing after DP. Saying he's only friendly and enthusiastic about Pokémon is just overly simplifying his character.
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Yes, but not for Alola. Ash has different goals now that there isn't a league yet in Alola, which isn't a "rinse and repeat". He drops off his Pokémon at Oak's to showcase and use the new region's Pokémon and challenges the regional League on his own. Adding a new protagonist won't change the anime's "rinse and repeat" status quo since you've reduced it to just Ash getting new Pokémon, dropping it off at Professor Oak's ranch, and competing in the League. Yes anyone can do that, which is why Ash has new traveling companions every saga yet it won't change anything if Ash is replaced.
This right here. The SM series broke the "rinse and repeat" formula of the anime. There is no League in Alola (yet). There are no Gyms. Ash is in school and stationed in one place, rather than constantly on the road. He has five new friends, rather than two or three.

I agree that the "rinse and repeat" formula of the series won't change even if there is a new protagonist. The new protagonist would still travel the region, catch regional Pokémon, earn Gym badges (or the current generation's equivalent of Gym badges), compete in the League, and then leave his Pokémon behind with his Pokémon professor at the end of the series. Replacing Ash might provide the anime with a fresh new face, but it won't solve the problems caused by the static formula of the anime itself.

What? His personality doesn't change each region. Yes we see certain sides of him given the situation but his whole character hasn't changed. And a generic slate? That's funny considering some people has always found him to be generic or boring no matter how mature or competent battler he is perceived.
This, too. Ash's core personality has never changed. Sure, he has matured over the course of the anime, but to say that his personality is changed to suit the current series is an insult to his character, IMO, and ignores the fact that his core personality has been an unchanging element of his character since the beginning.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I also forgot to add that his over excitement for things like a new Pokémon does, as a natural consequence, make him look dumber. Once he gets used to his surroundings, his enthusiasm fades and he mellows out, something I noticed about him and that's a natural reaction.
This right here. The SM series broke the "rinse and repeat" formula of the anime. There is no League in Alola (yet). There are no Gyms. Ash is in school and stationed in one place, rather than constantly on the road. He has five new friends, rather than two or three.
Just to clear out why Alola is different concerning Ash:
If Ash is only goal is to win the League, why is he in Alola? Oh yeah, it's almost like how he ended up in Isshu (as a vacation) but...

-He stumbled upon the Pokémon School. Got interested and wanted to become a student to learn more about Alola Pokémon and the culture, something that could get recalled by his statement of wanting to "start from zero" at the end of XY&Z. Before winning a vacation there, it was unknown what he was doing but we saw that he was spending time with his mother. Something that we can heavily assume that happened in DP despite there not being a Kanto episode at the end of DP, we knew he went back to his home in Kanto when we see him with his mother at the beginning of BW.

-He wants to collect Z Crystals and master Z moves. Something that fits him well that goes hand in hand with his beliefs.

-He wants to participate in the Island Challenge.

-He wants to battle and defeat Tapu Koko.

And unexpected events (Nebby, Ultra Beasts, Lillie's family drama, Pokémon problems, as well as extracurricular activities happen that deflect his time from achieving these goals. Outside of schoolwork or home life, we have seen him training his Pokémon either with Kiawe, a random student like Hiroki, or with his own Pokémon.
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
Not true for the anime. Whenever something anime related is displayed, it's always Ash and Pikachu, not only his Pikachu.

I would contend that as long as there's a Pikachu, a new protagonist would step in as the new face just fine after an initial transition.

In that case, they might as well continued the Mystery Dungeon shorts or episodes focused only on the Pokémon like the Tiny Trio Adventure episode. But it's don't.

They don't because they've pigeonholed themselves into the current format. A blank slate offers opportunities to reinvent the anime, while still retaining some core elements from how it's done now.

That's because One Piece is a highly planned out graphic novel series with a more mature demographic. And the only characters that stay are merely Ash, Pikachu, and the TRio. The latter on the other hand have been in danger many times of being replaced considering they can use the regional villain organizations but are only here because of fan popularity. Ash isn't Team Rocket. Not once have they thought of replacing Ash, everyone else but him since this is his journey.

That's exactly my point. Ash isn't a Bart Simpson, but neither is there an elaborate story planned out for the rest of his journey. He's basically plateau'd out in terms of development, scenarios he's been placed in, etc.

Team Rocket is kept for popularity, sure, but also because they serve a simple function of being the convenient episodic villain whenever the writers don't want to think too hard and need a convenient plot device for the heroes or COTD/POTD to blast off. They're also comic relief. The anime isn't about their journey.

Which he can... and will. All we know is that winning the League in the anime will make you the region's Champion. We haven't even seen the Champion challenging the E4 after becoming Champion.

When? Another 20 years from now?

The anime already takes several years per region, but at least, barring the Unova League fiasco, it always allowed Ash to go one step further as a trainer. After XY though, there's no more excuses. It needs to happen in the next five years, either at end of SM or in Gen 8.

The league is the culmination of all of Ash's efforts (capturing, raising, bonding with his team). It only happens once every 3 or 4 years. Most of the target audience might see 2 at most before they move on from the show. All they'll remember is yet another failure.

Yes, but not for Alola. Ash has different goals now that there isn't a league yet in Alola, which isn't a "rinse and repeat". He drops off his Pokémon at Oak's to showcase and use the new region's Pokémon and challenges the regional League on his own. Adding a new protagonist won't change the anime's "rinse and repeat" status quo since you've reduced it to just Ash getting new Pokémon, dropping it off at Professor Oak's ranch, and competing in the League. Yes anyone can do that, which is why Ash has new traveling companions every saga yet it won't change anything if Ash is replaced.

Alola isn't that different either. It's still a collection quest, where instead of gyms, Ash completes Grand Trials and earns Z-Crystals instead of badges. We don't yet know how the end-game of SM will play out with regards to the league that Kukui is trying to build.

You're assuming there won't be any change. There are numerous ways to go about with a fresh slate. There may be more recurring Pokemon and characters (unlike in the current anime where they're never seen again), episode sequences not centered around the MC but with another character elsewhere, etc.

You might say, "Well they can do that with Ash." Yes, they theoretically could, but they clearly are complacent with this rinse-and-repeat format. A blank slate would give them freedom to reinvent the show. Besides, more importantly, Ash's journey as it is right now needs to end.

And that's a good thing? Unless you're one of those fans who think Pokémon should mature simply because you're older, I don't think it'll change much. Only we've had that was with Alan and despite people loving (or hating) him, the Mega Evolution Acts were merely a set up to a bigger arc.

Of course it's a good thing. Allowing an iconic character to finally achieve his goal and going off a high note after so many years would be poignant and memorable.

???? Uh... this show has ALWAYS been Ash centric.

Um, yes, that is what I said...?

If there's anything this show ever taught you, it was that no one, even the best of the best, gets to achieve their final goal even if he/she "deserves" it.

Because that's a positive message? That works once or twice, maybe thrice, but when it's the case for the sixth time in 20+ years, that's BS.

I saw no inevitable end after the end of DP. Ash learned from his mistakes, took in the advice and experience he encountered, and continued on to his journey. Ash is going to have more goals, obstacles, and milestones in his career.

What other goals? He's only ever had a single major, true goal. What other obstacles and milestones are there for him that he hasn't yet achieved since the start of the show?

There's reasons on why they don't clearly define what a Pokémon Master is.

It doesn't matter. They've very clearly established that winning a league is the big goal for Ash.


What? His personality doesn't change each region. Yes we see certain sides of him given the situation but his whole character hasn't changed. And a generic slate? That's funny considering some people has always found him to be generic or boring no matter how mature or competent battler he is perceived.

So you're honestly telling me that the Ash in DP, BW, XY, and SM was the same and consistent? Well obviously, if you're putting the least common denominator as "He's nice and loves Pokemon" then yeah anybody would be the 'same.'

So it's less disrespectful for the staff to just write him off? To give up on him for a young, fresh face no one won't know nor care about at first?

Allowing Ash to succeed and go off on a high note is the complete opposite of disrespectful.

Lol, that's true for any show that has a new character...


His big goal isn't just merely winning a League. It's becoming a Pokémon Master, an undefinable goal he himself may not know what it's entirely about but the journey itself that he experiences that counts. Given the actions he shown, he may want to win the regional League but even if he doesn't, he doesn't let the loss bring him down and is only competing just to face off against strong Trainers. He wouldn't have even stayed in Alola if he was only in it to win the League but we know he has other priorities.

At the end of the day, it's what he competes for in each region: leagues, Battle Frontier, Orange Islands challenge, Alola trials. Obviously, the journey matters, but that journey is because he has a goal that he wants to achieve.

Dragging Ash for another 10 years and denying him that when it's far past time for him to do so is the epitome of lack of loyalty to a protagonist.

The anime /=/ the games. We're not in control of Ash and if we were, he would surely win the League in a single region. But sadly, he is merely an average Trainer. Poor Ash, people will only like him if he wins the League. :( ..... Now that's the real joke.

Except the anime has made it very clear now that he's no longer just an "average" trainer. He has the maturity, skills and Pokemon that he's raised to easily win a league.

Considering that you said that a lot of people think he's a joke for not winning a single League (ignoring the Orange Islands League) and continue to mention the sagas where he was ranked best, yes, he is just league ranks or he must be some stoic/serious/non bumbling idiot a.k.a. "mature", and strong battler to you. His career is his representative of his character growth. Ignore that he showed maturity or any of his regular traits in that inferior BW or SM sagas.

-.- Don't twist my words. I don't know where you're getting that I'm saying "maturity" = "stoic" or that BW and SM are inferior.

It's not my problem the anime had consistency from OS-DP in depicting on a broad-scale a clear arc in terms of how his personality grew as well as training skills. I don't mind SM Ash, but I'm not going to pretend there are no fluctuations of how he was in BW to XY to SM.


Or maybe it's because he has a never ending journey? I don't know, they've been doing quite a lot with his character lately that wasn't out of character or reimagining him as something he's not like those iterations of Mickey Mouse.

A "never ending journey" doesn't quite work when the anime itself has demonstrated his growth as a person, and the upward trend of results. In fact, after XY, they've basically reached the 'end-game' of the show as it is right now, which is winning a league.

Because he isn't what you imagine him to act like? He isn't consistently ranking up in the League? Ash's character/personality has always been clear throughout the sagas. Yes he grew out of his old antics but he wasn't some great character that stopped developing after DP. Saying he's only friendly and enthusiastic about Pokémon is just overly simplifying his character.

That's precisely what you're doing though. You're simplifying his character if you're arguing that he's been the same and that his character makes sense from DP-SM.

It's not what I'm imagining. The show has had him consistently rank up in every series but BW, to the point that the only thing left is winning the league.

====

This, too. Ash's core personality has never changed. Sure, he has matured over the course of the anime, but to say that his personality is changed to suit the current series is an insult to his character, IMO, and ignores the fact that his core personality has been an unchanging element of his character since the beginning.

It's not insulting. It's the truth. BW goes for a 'reset' - Ash behaves more "like a kid" and his Kanto self. XY goes for an action-packed, 'Ash rules' saga - he's depicted as the cool, brave leader. SM goes a slice-of-life slapstick comedy - he's overly enthusiastic (contrast that to his mellowed out DP persona).

Of course his "core" will be the same, but that doesn't deny that he has been molded to fit the series tonality in BW/XY/SM.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Honestly, I never watched the show just to see if Ash won the regional League or analyze his development from cocky beginner to... however you feel he is now so I won't have the same mindset nor thoughts as Navin. It was always the journey for me and I just honestly can't see how Ash could be much different from his previous sagas. Having Ash on the show is very important to me and many other users but I can see where some users may want Ash to be replaced. Not that I completely agree with it but I can somewhat understand.

Edit: Sorry but I didn't want the discussion to go any more longer than it has to since we aren't going to convince the other on our viewpoint.
 
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AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
Honestly, I never watched the show just to see if Ash won the regional League or analyze his development from cocky beginner to... however you feel he is now so I won't have the same mindset nor thoughts as Navin. It was always the journey for me and I just honestly can't see how Ash could be much different from his previous sagas. Having Ash on the show is very important to me and many other users but I can see where some users may want Ash to be replaced. Not that I completely agree with it but I can somewhat understand.

Edit: Sorry but I didn't want the discussion to go any more longer than it has to since we aren't going to convince the other on our viewpoint.

To me, I'm fine if people likes Ash. I just wanted the cast to be more balanced, especially we got to see the companions fully in one region before they're gone and I like to root the underdogs because they have more room for improvements.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Did people stop watching Yu-Gi-Oh after Yugi left? Yes

I wonder why that's truly the case,is it because of Yami?Is it because it was the first series?Or is it because it came out during a time where card duels were the cool thing to play back in the early 2000s?
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Honestly, I never watched the show just to see if Ash won the regional League or analyze his development from cocky beginner to... however you feel he is now so I won't have the same mindset nor thoughts as Navin. It was always the journey for me and I just honestly can't see how Ash could be much different from his previous sagas. Having Ash on the show is very important to me and many other users but I can see where some users may want Ash to be replaced. Not that I completely agree with it but I can somewhat understand.

It's not that I go out of my way to "analyze" development. When you've seen the show since the first episode, and as others mentioned in this thread, it's hard not to notice how they depicted Ash over the years. I agree that the journey is important too; it's just that the journey has been going on for 20+ years, and as much as I like Ash, I feel it's time for him to get the end he deserves.

Edit: Sorry but I didn't want the discussion to go any more longer than it has to since we aren't going to convince the other on our viewpoint.

That's fine. It's always interesting to hear the other side.

Or is it because it came out during a time where card duels were the cool thing to play back in the early 2000s?

The Pokemon anime's viewership also dropped after the global craze in the early 2000s ended. My point is that Yu-Gi-Oh moved on from Yugi to other main characters. Kids who are watching VRAINS weren't even alive when Yugi defeated Yami.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I'm sorry Navin for assuming some things about your reasoning behind replacing Ash in my last post. To add on to the current discussion, it's no kidding the viewership dropped compared to its early days, when it was fresh and the most popular. That's only inevitable.

I have no clue why some people would drop Yugi Oh after the first series. I did catch some episodes of the second series (I think it was Duel Monsters or something) and the main character and new characters didn't appeal to me at all. Only Yugi Oh series I started liking after the first series was 4Ds. And I do know old characters, namely Joey Wheeler, do get a "cameo" every now and then by hearing his name. I think it really determines if say, they replaced Ash with a new main character (and I don't think him/her having a Pikachu is necessary at all. Let them get the regional Pokémon or be like Gary where yes, he chose Blastoise but his Eevee/Umbreon is his main, go to Pokémon he's known for), their stories connect to the audience.

A good example is Digimon. First series, they're kids while in the second series, they aged them to teenagers before becoming adults in the end. First series was, as far I know, was well received while the second series was a mixed bag. Ok, replace the old main characters who grew up and replace them with new characters (that aren't their kids). Here's Digimon Tamers, which in my opinion, is way better and like the most than the first series. It ended on a high note and didn't progress into another series since those stories were told and completed with no/barely any strings left to tell more. It felt relatable and many of the characters who aren't even considered the main were likable and flowed well & deepen the plot when they were included. It was still aimed at kids but it didn't stop them from showing death and other dark elements that most will stray away from. Then the fourth series comes out with kids fusing into Digimon and the struggles it comes with. Wasn't a bad show but I don't remember that much from it. In comes the fifth series, Digimon Data Squad, where they tackle a new demographic. Was it received well? I don't know since I barely watched it... and didn't like. They take a hiatus and come out with Digimon Xros Wars (& Hunters) where the Digimon seem more mecha than ever and the kids are sucked into the Digimon World instead of the real world. Only in Digimon Hunters did they include 2 new main characters but took the main character (Taiki) from the previous series and downgrade him to a supporting role, which wasn't a very good idea.

They tried so many great concepts and added not just new characters and stories but changed the art style as well. (something Yugi Oh didn't do) Both Digimon and Yugi Oh replaced old characters with new ones once they felt their stories were complete. Pokémon is unique where they kept the same main character for over 2 decades and have a logical reason behind keeping him, and so far, have no plans of replacing him. Pokémon still kept the main character but told new stories by bringing in new characters for Ash to learn about and help. And sure Ash still does his own thing by competing in the League (until Alola) yet (some) people are still invested in what he has to offer. I think Ash isn't to blame for the status quo nor his apparent character arc fatigue. The problem is that Pokémon is one of the only shows where they consistently put in episodes without any sort of hiatus. Take the Mega Evolution Act specials for example, it took 6 months to air each Act. They were planned out early on judging by the interview where the director said there wouldn't be enough time to tell Alan's story if he was already in the main anime while telling Ash and co's stories so it began as specials and later on integrated Alan into the main anime when they felt was best. And another problem with Pokémon is that unlike Yugi Oh or Digimon, the anime still relies on the games as a crotch to not just tell stories, but as a time limit as well. Some plans such as with the unaired TR vs TP 2 parter episodes that were originally planned to air later on didn't flow into the newly revised arcs so they bothered not to release it when things calmed down from the recent tragedy. Pokémon's issue is that if they had more time to plan out their saga and didn't rely too much on the status quo then there wouldn't be much of an issue, but it is.

And for what it's worth, it's quite incredible the staff can put in so much work and effort into a show with so little time to tell a decent story that isn't all over the place.
 
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