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How powerful was Ash during the battle frontier saga?

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Mistycallsstaryu

Mistycallsstaryu

Well-Known Member
I saw a clip of an old episode where Ash was lighting Agatha up for a few seconds before eventually losing to hypnosis + dream eater and it got me thinking about how powerful he was at this stage of his journey. Correct me if I'm wrong but that must have been Ash's best performance vs an Elite Four/champion class trainer until he fought Diantha in Kalos.

Start of the saga: Ash is fresh off the back of narrowly losing to an eventual regional champion and was capable of giving Agatha a run for her money, even if he did use quick attack on Gengar...

By the end of the saga: He defeated all of the brains (who Scott said were comparable to Agatha in strength), defeated two legendaries and both his reserves and especially his Hoenn team got stronger.

With that being said, what would you say Ash's power level was at the start and end of this saga? With reserves, the achievement of beating the battle frontier and beating two legendaries in the process, along with the marked improvement of his Hoenn team in particular, Ash feels to me like a low level Elite four member but I would like to hear what others think. Put it this way, end of the battle frontier saga Ash seems like he would have won the Hoenn league.
 
GLTSRY

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
Mistycallsstaryu said:
(who Scott said were comparable to Agatha in strength),
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To be fair, that statement was nothing more than an attempt to hype up his own facilities. Besides Brandon, Annabel and maybe Spencer they all seemed like the average Regional Tournament rivals.

And even with the 3 strongest, I don’t think they’re E4 level. You could say Brandon was when he was using all his Regi’s against Paul, but his other Pokémon didn’t seem to be that impressive.
Mistycallsstaryu said:
With that being said, what would you say Ash's power level was at the start and end of this saga? With reserves, the achievement of beating the battle frontier and beating two legendaries in the process, along with the marked improvement of his Hoenn team in particular, Ash feels to me like a low level Elite four member but I would like to hear what others think. Put it this way, end of the battle frontier saga Ash seems like he would have won the Hoenn league.
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For me, nowhere near close to an E4 member. I’d rate him as a very strong Regional League Tournament winner, but he was still a young trainer who’d occasionally make unnecessary mistakes - like Seismic Toss against Dusclops.

If his final victory would’ve been against Brandon using 2 or all 3 Regi’s, it would’ve been different of course.
 
JustAStatistic

JustAStatistic

Super Casual Trainer
Mid-E4, thanks to Scott's statement. Flows well into DP Ash being high E4 level, and after a stumble in BW, being roughly Champion level from XY onward.
 
PaperCutVictim

PaperCutVictim

Well-Known Member
I guess around low Elite Four level? He and his team were looking pretty good by the end, but his Sceptile did tie with May's Blaziken not long after, and the same Pikachu that had beaten Brandon's Regice still was beaten by Gary's Electivire before Ash decided to depart for Sinnoh. Then take into account Ash kept getting better during DP, and yet in his match against Flint, Buizel and Infernape (who, to be fair, didn't trigger Blaze) got dumpstered. Pikachu was the only one that got Flint's Infernape remotely serious, and that was still a stomp. Then again, I think they mentioned Flint was the strongest of the Sinnoh E4, so this might not be a fair comparison. Plus it's entirely possible not all E4 members are equivalent, so the gap between the strongest and the weakest E4 might actually be quite large.
 
Mistycallsstaryu

Mistycallsstaryu

Well-Known Member
The only thing that made me raise an eyebrow during this saga was that right after Scott introduces himself as a scout, Ash commands Pikachu to use quick attack on Gengar...

Maybe scott blinked when that happened and missed it...
 
Mistycallsstaryu

Mistycallsstaryu

Well-Known Member
janejane6178 said:
He was very strong and looked good
And also giving him a bonus because he was in the 00' years which is the best time ever.
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Agreed!

Bonus points for being the saga where Misty gave Ash her lure of love.
 
JustAStatistic

JustAStatistic

Super Casual Trainer
GLTSRY said:
I remember Ash getting clowned on by an actual E4 member in DP
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Fortunately, JN retconned that E4 member to likely be the strongest of his title, even temporarily standing on the same rank as Champions. And we all know Ash isn't at full power until the very end of each series.

So yeah, I could see Ash at the end of DP being around upper E4 level.
 
P

pickapika

Well-Known Member
JustAStatistic said:
Fortunately, JN retconned that E4 member to likely be the strongest of his title, even temporarily standing on the same rank as Champions. And we all know Ash isn't at full power until the very end of each series.

So yeah, I could see Ash at the end of DP being around upper E4 level.
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tobias throws rhis all out of whack though. Creams ash and then presumably loses to cynthia
 
GLTSRY

GLTSRY

Sorry not sorry for my smugness
JustAStatistic said:
Fortunately, JN retconned that E4 member to likely be the strongest of his title, even temporarily standing on the same rank as Champions. And we all know Ash isn't at full power until the very end of each series.

So yeah, I could see Ash at the end of DP being around upper E4 level.
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I wouldn’t say that this was a retcon. For all we know, Lucian didn’t participate in the PWC or he used to be part of the Masters 8 and lost his promotion battle.
 
Ignition

Ignition

We are so back Zygardebros
I'd say he was around a 8th Gym Leader/1st E4 at best
 
JustAStatistic

JustAStatistic

Super Casual Trainer
pickapika said:
tobias throws rhis all out of whack though. Creams ash and then presumably loses to cynthia
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Why is this the default assumption? We have no confirmation that the pre-DP league winners challenged the E4, and Virgil and Alain are both strongly implied to have not challenged their Leagues either.
 
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