How powerful was Ash during the battle frontier saga?

[DayQuil95]

I remember Ash getting clowned on by an actual E4 member in DP

Torterra surprisingly enough held its own against Bertha's Hippowdown, while Flint ripped Ash a new one.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Torterra surprisingly enough held its own against Bertha's Hippowdown, while Flint ripped Ash a new one.

Torterra>Pikachu

 

[AJ97]

It's hilarious that people are calling BF Ash Elite four-tier lol.
Yes, Scot claimed the BF was supposedly as strong as the "Elite four", however it was indicated that many people had completed the BF Challenge before. Even Paul's brother had 7 Symbols.

Paul who was stronger than Reggie; was destroyed by Cynthia effortlessly. An Elite Four member would be strong enough to force a Regional Champion to be serious.

Elite Four/Regional Champions were always treated as many celebrities and the Pinnacle of strength in the anime (Until Journey's and the MC).

Plus, Post BF Ash lost to Gary. So now we're also gonna start calling Gary Elite four-tier? lmao...

BF Ash was a Veteran High tier trainer. Sinnoh Ash was even Better.
Then he dipped in Unova. Kalos was the first time Ash had a Pokemon that actually attained an Elite four tier feat (Because he had an actual Rival who had an Elite four-tier Pokemon).

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

It's hilarious that people are calling BF Ash Elite four-tier lol.
Yes, Scot claimed the BF was supposedly as strong as the "Elite four", however it was indicated that many people had completed the BF Challenge before. Even Paul's brother had 7 Symbols.

Paul who was stronger than Reggie; was destroyed by Cynthia effortlessly. An Elite Four member would be strong enough to force a Regional Champion to be serious.

Elite Four/Regional Champions were always treated as many celebrities and the Pinnacle of strength in the anime (Until Journey's and the MC).

Plus, Post BF Ash lost to Gary. So now we're also gonna start calling Gary Elite four-tier? lmao...

BF Ash was a Veteran High tier trainer. Sinnoh Ash was even Better.
Then he dipped in Unova. Kalos was the first time Ash had a Pokemon that actually attained an Elite four tier feat (Because he had an actual Rival who had an Elite four-tier Pokemon).

AG got destroyed by Charizard lol. BF Ash>>>Kalos Ash

 

[ZarudeSandstorm]

In the end probably not that far off some weaker E4s.

 

[pickapika]

It's hilarious that people are calling BF Ash Elite four-tier lol.
Yes, Scot claimed the BF was supposedly as strong as the "Elite four", however it was indicated that many people had completed the BF Challenge before. Even Paul's brother had 7 Symbols.

Paul who was stronger than Reggie; was destroyed by Cynthia effortlessly. An Elite Four member would be strong enough to force a Regional Champion to be serious.

Paul lost to ash when he was wielding a bunch of rookies + pikachu and was able to predict and prepare for each and every member of ash's team. Not seeing why that would bind ash, using an all-star team, below being "competitive" with cynthia

Besides that, do we even have proof that the average e4 trianer is competitive with the average champion?

 

[AJ97]

Paul lost to ash when he was wielding a bunch of rookies + pikachu and was able to predic

"Bunch of rookies" what?.... Paul was shown to be relative to Ash in skill throughout the series.

t and prepare for each and every member of ash's team. Not seeing why that would bind ash, using an all-star team, below being "competitive" with cynthia

Besides that, do we even have proof that the average e4 trianer is competitive with the average champion?

Yes. Elite four trainers are strong enough to actually compete and hold their own against Regional Champions in serious battles.
Cynthia vs Elite four members in Sinnoh and we also have Caitlin being able to hold her own against Cynthia.

 

[Leonhart]

The fact that he chose to use a Normal-type attack against a Ghost-type at the start of the Battle Frontier arc, and then a Fighting-type attack against another Ghost-type during the end of the same arc really brings his strategies and skills into question. If he was able to make such rookie mistakes at the time, it's hard for me to believe that he was at Four Heavenly Kings [Elite Four] level back then, with or without his reserves.

 

[pickapika]

"Bunch of rookies" what?.... Paul was shown to be relative to Ash in skill throughout the series.

Yes. Elite four trainers are strong enough to actually compete and hold their own against Regional Champions in serious battles.
Cynthia vs Elite four members in Sinnoh and we also have Caitlin being able to hold her own against Cynthia.

All of ash's pokemon in his victory vs paul, save for Pikachu, were trained and developed in sinnoh. On top of that, Paul had the benefit of knowing who those 6 pokemon were going to be and preparing for them accordingly. Ash's battle frontier pokemon were trained over three different regions and neither Cynthia or an e4 trainer would be able to predict who ash is using or prepare a strategy specifally suited for that. Cynthia crushing Paul(whose primary goal wasn't even competitive performance) doesn't mean she'd crush Ash.

Cynthia didn't beat Paul via skill, she beat Paul via her pokemon being stronger. Whose to say Ash can't replicate that if he's using the best of a 3-region team as opposed to a bunch of pokemon he trained over the course of one season. As it is, ash was able to brute force past Paul's strategy in their sinnoh league battle without using his strongest mons.

Cynthia's victory against Paul doesn't mean she'd demolish BF Ash

 

[AJ97]

All of ash's pokemon in his victory vs paul, save for Pikachu, were trained and developed in sinnoh. On top of that, Paul had the benefit of knowing who those 6 pokemon were going to be and preparing for them accordingly. Ash's battle frontier pokemon were trained over three different regions and neither Cynthia or an e4 trainer would be able to predict who ash is using or prepare a strategy specifally suited for that. Cynthia crushing Paul(whose primary goal wasn't even competitive performance) doesn't mean she'd crush Ash.

1) Paul in fact predicted wrong and did not prepare for Ash's team accordingly. His in fact expected Ash to bring in different Pokemon; so he used Gastrodon and Aggron to try to predict Ash's team and then countered the same accordingly.

2) Training across different Regions doesn't mean anything. Ash's Journey's team is superior to all of his current reserves (Including those that were trained across more Regions). AG was stronger and had much better feats compare to all of Ash's previous Pokemon (Until Journeys).

3) Flint effortlessly destroyed Ash. So Did Bertha. She would do the same to Ash.

Cynthia didn't beat Paul via skill, she beat Paul via her pokemon being stronger. Whose to say Ash can't replicate that if he's using the best of a 3-region team as opposed to a bunch of pokemon he trained over the course of one season. As it is, ash was able to brute force past Paul's strategy in their sinnoh league battle without using his strongest mons.

Plus, you basically contradicted your entire argument by admitting Cynthia crushing Paul. The whole key point here is Paul basically used his reserves; his most experienced Pokemon (Like His torterra); which is essentially the parallel to Ash using Charizard or Sceptile against Cynthia and like you said; it was absolutely shut down effortlessly. Paul is a trainer just as good as Ash if not better. Ash wouldn't have done any better against Cynthia. In fact, Paul was even shown to be one step ahead of Ash throughout Sinnoh and Ash only ended up beating him in the end just because of Infernapes sheer determination.

 

[Flashyspark]

Oh my god why are people arguing about Cynthia and Paul in a thread about Ash in the Battle Frontier saga?

Ash was low E4 level at most because he beat Brandon who most people would agree was as tough as an E4 member. He might've even beaten Agatha under different circumstances if he wasn't so reckless by using Quick Attack on Gengar.

 

[AJ97]

Ash was low E4 level at most because he beat Brandon who most people would agree was as tough as an E4 member.

Why? There is no objective reason to conclude this.
If that's the case, is Gary also Elite four tier since he beat Ash right after?

Would an Elite four tier Ash go job in Unova right after and then go to Kalos and lose against the first trainer?

Only actual time Ash comes close to having an objective E4 tier feat; is in Kalos. And then in Alola, we see Ash retain his veteran trainer status and improves a bit (Not Significantly) as he did not have anyone to Push him and now he's a Master Class trainer in Journey's.

Sick of hearing people calling Trainer strong as Elite Four Tier or Champion tier. It doesn't work that way.

 

[DayQuil95]

Would an Elite four tier Ash go job in Unova right after and then go to Kalos and lose against the first trainer?

Yes.

 

[pickapika]

1) Paul in fact predicted wrong and did not prepare for Ash's team accordingly. His in fact expected Ash to bring in different Pokemon; so he used Gastrodon and Aggron to try to predict Ash's team and then countered the same accordingly.

Paul explicitly stated the first two pokemon confirmed what Paul thought Ash would do. Reggie confirmed that Paul had predicted the exact sequence of moves buisel would use vs gastradon(which allowed Paul to land a hit) and was able to use aggron to lower pikachu's defenses and avoid damage when pikachu suffered recoil from a volt-tackle.

Paul benefitted from his prediction with his first two pokemon and then essentially swept half of ash's team with a prepared strategy specifcally tailored for the pokemon paul predicted ash would use in the order he predicted they would be used.

And then he lost anyway because Infernape and Pikachu were too strong.

2) Training across different Regions doesn't mean anything. Ash's Journey's team is superior to all of his current reserves (Including those that were trained across more Regions). AG was stronger and had much better feats compare to all of Ash's previous Pokemon (Until Journeys).

Training across different regions means that pokemon have more time to grow stronger. It also means you have a wider selection of pokemon to choose from. Heck, journeys makes it explicit that pokemon can even get stronger just by fighting other pokemon in oak's lab(infernape cough). Ash basically set a self-imposed limit on how strong his team could be vs Paul

Plus, you basically contradicted your entire argument by admitting Cynthia crushing Paul. The whole key point here is Paul basically used his reserves; his most experienced Pokemon (Like His torterra); which is essentially the parallel to Ash using Charizard or Sceptile against Cynthia and like you said; it was absolutely shut down effortlessly.

-> It's explicitly stated Paul is just using the cynthia fight as a test/training mechanism for his mons
-> Paul explicitly tells us that his only objective vs Ash is to win

Paul's team vs Ash is the team he thought would give him the best chance of winning against the 6 pokemon he successfully predicted Ash would use

Paul's team vs Cynthia was explicitly selected for the purpose of making certain pokemon stronger(chimchar in paticular is only used vs cynthia because he wants chimchar to get stronger)

Paul is a trainer just as good as Ash if not better. Ash wouldn't have done any better against Cynthia. In fact, Paul was even shown to be one step ahead of Ash throughout Sinnoh and Ash only ended up beating him in the end just because of Infernapes sheer determination.

*Infernape(and pikachu's) sheer power

-> Pikachu tanks multiple attacks and multiple instances of recoil vs three of Paul's pokemon after having his defenses weakened and only succumbs when Ash amplifies Paul's electravire with an electric attack

-> Infernape wipes out half of Paul's team while heavily poisoned after tanking a several seconds of thunder from a hyper-amped electravire

Ash's pokemon are stronger so you'd expect Ash to do better even if he was to just use his sinnoh team. AG Ash has access to several infernape-level power houses AND pikachu. Ash doing better than Paul vs Cynthia is obvious. Even ash's tarkoal gave a better fight to Registeel than any of Paul's mons managed

 

[TurboAceK]

Assuming Scott’s Elite 4 comparisons to the Battle frontier is accurate

I think Ash is on the fringe of Elite 4 level in Battle Frontier saga
(And he kinda stays around that level for most the anime imo)

My justification is that like his JN masters 8 stats
Ash raises his Pokémon so that they are as powerful and fast as the top level trainers and Ash is a master when it comes unpredictability and tactics and such
So he can hypothetically beat a lot of the top trainers with that as seen with the Battle Frontier
Like I wouldn’t be surprised if right after Brandon if Ash battled Agatha or even Drake again Ash could win

But in reality Ash lacked and stills lack defense strategy and experience
As there are times he is still forgetful and/or is encountering moves he hasn’t seen or battled before

Like he tried using a normal move on a ghost type against Agatha and this is after his Hoenn league where he was arguably #2
But on the flip side he show his smarts against trainers like Nolan because of his experience with Charizard and even just knowing moves like Overheat well enough before hand

So yeah
I think in Battle frontier at his peak, essentially being on top of his game (physically mentally emotionally etc) can make him Elite 4 level but Ash isn’t reliable enough in the areas he’s lacking in to confidently put him there
Making him in that in between tier where he can beat E4 tier but also can lose to the trainers in the tier below (whatever you would call that)

 

[Rune Knight]

Just for fun, I made up a little scenario of how I think that BF Ash vs. XY Ash would play out.

This is mostly opiniated and speculative based, so please forgive me if you disagree; but keep in mind that I do not hold any bias towards either version of the character.

I used a random number generator to pan out the pokémon that they would first send out; using 1-6 as representatives for the order that they were caught in: in my case I rolled a 4 for AG Ash and a 6 for XY Ash, so Corphish and Noivern respectively.

Spoiler

Corphish vs. Noivern: Noivern wins.

Swellow vs. Noivern: Swellow wins.

Swellow vs. Goodra: AG Ash recalls Swellow.

Sceptile vs. Goodra: Sceptile wins.

Sceptile vs. Talonflame: AG Ash recalls Sceptile.

Swellow vs. Talonflame: Talonflame wins.

AG Pikachu vs. Talonflame: AG Pikachu wins.

AG Pikachu vs. XY Pikachu: XY Pikachu wins.

Donphan vs. XY Pikachu: XY Ash recalls XY Pikachu.

Donphan vs. Greninja: Greninja wins.

Sceptile vs. Greninja: XY Ash recalls Greninja.

Sceptile vs. Hawlucha: AG Ash recalls Sceptile.

Aipom vs. Hawlucha: Aipom wins.

Aipom vs. XY Pikachu: XY Pikachu wins.

Sceptile vs. XY Pikachu: Sceptile wins.

Sceptile vs. Greninja: Greninja goes into Ash-Greninja.

Sceptile vs. Ash-Greninja: Ash-Greninja wins.

[/B]

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Trying my hand:
Corphish vs Noivern: Corphish wins
Corphish vs Hawlucha: Hawlucha wins
Glalie vs Hawlucha: Glalie wins
Glalie vs Talonflame: Talonflame wins
Pikachu vs Talonflame: Pikachu wins
Pikachu vs Goodra: Pikachu is recalled
Swellow vs Goodra: Draw
Torkoal vs Greninja: Greninja wins
Sceptile vs Ash-Greninja: Sceptile wins
Sceptile vs Pikachu: Pikachu wins
AG vs XY Pika: XY Pika wins

 

[pickapika]

Assuming Scott’s Elite 4 comparisons to the Battle frontier is accurate

I think Ash is on the fringe of Elite 4 level in Battle Frontier saga
(And he kinda stays around that level for most the anime imo)

My justification is that like his JN masters 8 stats
Ash raises his Pokémon so that they are as powerful and fast as the top level trainers and Ash is a master when it comes unpredictability and tactics and such
So he can hypothetically beat a lot of the top trainers with that as seen with the Battle Frontier
Like I wouldn’t be surprised if right after Brandon if Ash battled Agatha or even Drake again Ash could win

But in reality Ash lacked and stills lack defense strategy and experience

Ash still lacks defense even as he's seemingly become a top 4 trainer. In terms of what he actually shows he doesn't really feel on the same level as the ash from sinnoh, s and m, or x and y. But it doesn't really matter now because ash's mons just brute force the opponent when he's in trouble and are able to tank whatever comes when he's outsmarted.

Not really the most narratively compelling approach but it really just seems like ash's journey's success in-universe is a result of his pokemon going from _as powerful_ as top tiers to being _more powerful_ and then ash being able to come up with a unpredictable strategy after his mons have bought enough time for him by tanking all the stupid hits he allows.

Ash seems to have made virtually no progress as a battler/strategist(if you were to treat ash like a different character every series he actually seems way worse in that regard than his previous versions)

Your theory also explains why ash is almost losing every matchup until the masters journeys tournament and isn't just dominating people outright.

 

[PCN24454]

Agreed, he was around Elite Four level, but definitely not champion level, a natural progression would have been him achieving that by DP.

I don’t know why people think that he was E4 level when E4 were clearly portrayed as invincible.

 

[Krackochu]

I don’t know why people think that he was E4 level when E4 were clearly portrayed as invincible.

That was only on sinnoh with a badly written scenes than again region power scaling is a whole other issue here's how I rate Ash.

Kanto: A really lucky rookie: I freaking swear in this region ash just got a bunch of mons with perfect ivs. Although bulbasaur is pretty respectable we need a bulbasaur appreciation thread already.

Orange islands: truthfully around gym leader level:Technically ash here is way stronger but in terms of strategy he kinda falls flat not to mention he was using mostly old mons.

Johto: Gym leader level: the thing about johto is that ash was a way better trainer but a fatal weakness was his team was just overall weaker he's strongest mons outside of the classics were heracross(love this baby ), bayleaf(amazing ) and cyndaquil. He's better but no by much

Hoenn: League level: people really do he crap talking hoenn. Ash went in with a new team and almost took the win here. Not to mention his pokemon here all just fit right in.

Battle frontier(lower e4/battle frontier level)
BF Ash is tricky he's using old mons but his skill remains mostly consistent.

Sinnohe4/league champion): off the bat aah in Sinnoh is just the most impressive compared to all other versions of him. He legitimately had to bring back countershield in journeys because that's how impressive he is. If he had alola mons or kalos mons or journeys mons this man would be unstoppable.

Unova(8th gym leader level) Ash in unova is weird because his skills were more basic but no where near as bad as kanto.

Kalos(Champion/E4): Ash in Kalos came saw and conquered. The main issue however is that his kalos mons individually are kinda weaker besides greninja and Pikachu than his bf and sinnoh mons.

Alola(Champion/E4): Ash in alola is strange however Pikachu alone remains consistent in this region just prowling through everything that isn't a ground type. Beating two mythicals one of then highly trained in sivally and just dominating his other team mates ain't slouched either. But due to alola's weird scaling besides kukui serving as the Champion in game universes its actually kinda hard to translate jk. Kukui was the strongest person in alola getting help from a mythical pokemon ash is Champion level.