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How should gen 8 ash be handled?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by mehmeh1, Nov 5, 2018.

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  1. U.N. Owen

    U.N. Owen In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...

    It's not that people forget. It's that one arc does not make up for an entire series of seemingly paint-by-numbers personality. I seriously felt like Ash was just going through the motions. I felt no sense of urgency or tension despite attempts at making such clearly being present.
  2. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    Good thing that something doesn't always have to appeal to one person. It was great stuff. That kind of stuff hasn't been seen in SM at all
  3. PorcelainVulpix

    PorcelainVulpix justice for johto

    At this point if you’re watching to see Ash win a league or “grow up” you’re really wasting your time. Ash is forever 10, I don’t understand why y’all expect him to not act his age. I know some people think SM Ash is over the top but at least the ten year old has a personality again. Maybe next gen, the writers will find an inbetween for Ash’s personality since both XY and SM Ash get so much backlash.
    AznKei and Pokegirl Fan~ like this.
  4. Redstar45


    I would like to rather them retiring Satoshi or the anime as i stops care about writer-director team had own damn idea or a crap story telling as give me new blood who do respectfully to late shudõ and Satoshi have abuse as the characters .
  5. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Superancient Member

    That wasn't "character development". Ash didn't permanently change as a result of that challenge, he kept doing what he was doing the entire series. Both subplots with Greninja and Serena were hamfisted melodrama, and the loss to Wulfric was no different from the one to Viola at the start of the series. The only caveat was it was unnecessary.

    Ash Ketchum hasn't had an iota of development since the final episode of DP through the current episode of SM. DP milked almost every possible plotline Ash could explore short of progressing in the league, and since then he's had no meaningful benchmarks to show he's progressed as a trainer. All we have are some fun Pikachu feats that add to Pikachu's legend.

    What has happened instead is he's catalyzed the development of other characters. Sawyer, the SM cast and I guess Alain and Iris all changed being around him. While that's fine and all, it would be nice if the writers actually gave Ash a new role to play so we could be invested with him as a character again.
    maartjeverhoef and Pokegirl Fan~ like this.
  6. Redstar45


    okay this started to a xy vs sm bash thread .
  7. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I like SM Ash's run just because the series tends to put how complacent his usual run is in front of him. Him maybe not taking companions' personal woes seriously enough, him being too expectant they come and go on his terms, him being used to going free reign anywhere he wants, him not having a very specific set of rules to follow each journey. It's still gingerly handled so it gratifyingly isn't to the level of 'Ash is such a selfish jerk' like in the OS but more them lamp shading he isn't used to this change in dynamic. It's humanising seeing him TRYING to adjust for another set of characters.
  8. Redstar45


    No not really as that Satoshi don't feel that Satoshi from the os-dp or bw or xyz he is feel like different kid but very too cartoon for me and you don't say that he is real kid ..it is bs and you knew it .
    It would be nice if there is a more consistent with his characteristic not another new personality (bw-xyz-sm)
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
    J.Agera likes this.
  9. Doppelgänger

    Doppelgänger Superancient Member

    His personality is basically the same between BW/XY, there is a fan interpretation that he's more "mature", but it's easily attributable to other things, like the company he keeps or the single-minded focus on battles and victory. SM Ash has the same battle obsession with "meme faces" and gags thrown in.

    Point being, Ash's personality is more consistent between BW/XY/SM than it was between OS/AG/DP, because Ash had different roles in the earlier series. He was a rookie in Indigo and a veteran in Johto. He and Brock were mentors to May, Max and Dawn while Paul challenged his very identity as a trainer, showing he still had room to change despite all his success to that point, coming off beating the Battle Frontier. It's difficult to claim someone can have a consistent personality when they have frequent challenges to their character and are forced to take on different roles.

    I'm invested in Ash as a character, but not "SM Ash". Without the body of failure leading up to this point, there's nothing in SM itself to elevate the Alola League above one of the Don George tournaments. So unless Ash wins the Alola League and begins his Galar adventures as an obscure Champion, he's doomed to another three years of stagnation.

    I can't really stress this enough: there's almost nothing more he can learn as a veteran trainer pretending he's a rookie, because he's facing off against bonafide rookie trainers. And the dumb writers have gone out of their way to block him from an official battle against a trainer of his stature.
    VoltTacklingPika likes this.
  10. Redstar45


    Then .....Why not make him a sensei in sm and lille as main character as first time that Pokegirl as mc of the Pokemon anime show? Because more and more now satoshi is useless as and in turn sm is apparently just useless without him as the star of the show ......when that cast could do the show without him tag along for 10 times in the series 's history .
  11. J.Agera

    J.Agera Well-Known Member

    What are you talking about? XY Ash gets backlash? Nope.
    SM Ash though, yes.
    SM has personality? Yes, but it's not what it should be, its just another generic Kids show protagonist. Ash is not even needed in the SM Anime. Literally replace him with any other character like Gladion or Hau and the Anime will turn better.

    XY Ash had his personality though, although it was a bit more goal focused and mature sided.
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  12. J.Agera

    J.Agera Well-Known Member

    Development ≠ Changing.
    Ashton Ketchum likes this.
  13. It's the anime's MO to keep its protagonists as simplistic as possible, so no matter what, Ash is unlikely to be a satisfying character for us. I said at the start of the thread that I wanted him to have major flaws again, and I stand by that now, but I'm also resigned to the fact that even if they did it, it's unlikely to be as intriguing as I'd like it to be.

    The recent discussion has got me thinking about how important the environment around Ash is. More and more, my enjoyment of the show hinges on the cast that orbits Ash and what they bring out of him. Put antagonistic rival characters such as Gary and Paul near him and you'll see him be competitive, hotheaded, and almost desperate to prove himself. Put inexperienced rookies such as May and Dawn near him and you'll see him be more considerate and reflective. Put normal friends and parental figures such as SM's cast near him and you get a normal guy. It's such an obvious thing, but nonetheless it highlights how crucial the rest of the cast and its ability to play off one another is.

    I remember one of Takeshi Shudo's blog posts about the creation of the show. I'm paraphrasing, but he wanted to create a show that could be enjoyed by everyone, not just kids. The problem he encountered was that the producer at the time stressed the importance of simplistic characters that can easily understood by a young audience, hence the protagonists were intentionally stereotypical. However, since Team Rocket were older characters, Shudo had greater freedom with that he could with them. Hence, TR played an important role in drawing older viewers to the show. The contrast between the simple innocence and motives of the main trio and the more complex motives and morals of TR was a key factor in Pokemon's early success. Elements of this dynamic were retained in AG, where both sides interacted with another plenty of times outside of regular battling.

    That element has faded as the years have gone by. These days, Ash-tachi and TR are separate entities on the cast, rarely leaving their respective "good" and "bad" labels to come together for an issue that both sides can relate to. Ash becomes a more compelling character when he's turning to TR for help to sneak into a gym, because that really highlights how far he's willing to go for a gym battles. He's a far less compelling character when he's playing the goody-two-shoes and just blasting TR off.

    All of this is to say than in Gen 8, the best way to handle Ash is to give him not just interesting allies, but a set of villains that he's forced to interact with outside of basic clashes of good vs bad.
    mehmeh1 and FlygontheRavager like this.
  14. Captain Jigglypuff

    Captain Jigglypuff Leader of Jigglypuff Army Staff Member Moderator

    I want a balance of past iterations of Ash where he is serious and competent in battle and he isn’t acting all goofy and immature but not too serious as he is funny when the situation calls for it such as when interacting with a Pokémon that is rather quirky and it responds to Ash in an unexpected manner and with TRio through banter. And make him a bit jaded towards TRio attacking him and even snarky at their comments and plans but still let him be genuinely surprised when they pull off a rather brilliant plan that is being rather successful or when they attack out of nowhere with no hints that they are there.
    Redstar45 and J.Agera like this.
  15. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Yeah the TR/twerps rivalry tends to suck these days, though SM at least got the point not to still try and make it the pivot of nearly every damn non-main arc plot. I find it odd they rarely actually make fun of the TRio's antics being so repetitive in universe anymore though, the monotony is now unironically played out despite actually being far worse than before. You'd think the longer they had to write this crap, the more willing they'd be to make knocks at it.

    I think SM at least benefits from trying to have Ash immerse with other characters more often and take more interest in what they are doing. I still think one of the most humanising moments for Ash in the AF arc where it's treated to him rather bluntly that he's not really taking Lillie's problems seriously enough, he's used to it just being a light hearted adventure with everyone just kind of being his 'sidekick', but Lillie's conditions need more genuine empathy than passive and distant good will like he usually gave the XY cast. Seeing him checking up on Lillie, catching himself when he gets too focused on his Pokemon again over her kidnapped mother, and just generally becoming more and more proactive and protective of her throughout those last few episodes. It felt like that sparked something out of him, even if sadly things mostly returned to normal between them after the arc was done.

    I think Ash needs more cases like that, characters that get new emotions and situations out of Ash, in XY everyone just kind of followed Ash, thus he felt very complacent and lacking in interactions.

    I don't think simple archetypes is really the problem however, characters that are fairly streamlined in character can still feel capable of depth and endearing personality. This is a reason the Winnie the Pooh franchise has a huge periphery demographic for example, the characters are fairly basic, but the writers know how to play them off of each other and take directions with them that make them feel fully fledged in spite of the very basic and laid back stories. Has the anime had some story depth equivalent to "Find Her Keep Her", an analogy to a parent struggling with the decision to let their grown up child run free, or "The Tigger Movie" where a character is slowly broken down from lacking a family and identity? Hell, what is SM Ash but the series' version of Tigger, stuff like this could be done.
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  16. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    It's not a fan interpretation, he was definitely more mature. Of course, he wasn't the most mature person in the world, but he was mature. He was more careful and understanding with Serena, and less selfish.
    FullmetalJackie, mehmeh1 and J.Agera like this.
  17. I can't even imagine Ash as a sensei character in general much less in a saga like Sun and Moon. He's not useless though because even though he's a permanent underdog, he's still a better character than the Alola cast combined.
  18. Power Up

    Power Up ...

    Good thing you don't decide these things and not having valid development is good criticism

    Also, him being forever 10 was never mentioned in XY/XYZ. He didn't act his age in XY cause his age didn't matter

    Also lol at XY Ash not having a personality. Pretty much a random nitpick at this point

    Dude, you're arguing with your interpretation of the scene in question. Your interpretation is no more valid than mine. Hamfisted and melodrama lol, at least try backing up your statements with some sort of proof
    Shadao and Redstar45 like this.
  19. MidnightMelody

    MidnightMelody Hopeful for Gen 8

    Not like a slice of life or comedy driven series. If they feel the need for comedy sprinkle it don't shove it in till the plot is over flowing
    SH65 likes this.
  20. PorcelainVulpix

    PorcelainVulpix justice for johto

    His age does matter? It’s literally the reason why he’s not going to win a league until his run is over.

    And oh, let me guess, YOU decide these things? L o l.

    It’s definitely not a “random nitpick.” Despite your delusions, Ash is pretty lacking in personality in XY compared to other seasons. So many people don’t complain about Ash and the XY cast being extremely boring for no reason.
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
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