How strong do you think Ash's pokemon are?

[Deleted member 384931]

I rewatched Trip vs Ash Unova League again. And God Pikachu went down alot. Serpirior wasnt that strong if one single electroball could take it out

 

[Leonhart]

I rewatched Trip vs Ash Unova League again. And God Pikachu went down alot. Serpirior wasnt that strong if one single electroball could take it out

I believe it was a combination of both Electro Ball and Iron Tail, but I still think that was one of the more contrived battles that we witnessed in BW in general, and it seemed like the writers simply wanted Pikachu to have a rematch with Jalorda to redeem his loss from BW001, only they didn't try very hard to make Pikachu's victory feel realistic.

 

[LilligantLewis]

Besides the fact that feats are way more important than win rate. For example, all the Pokémon Gliscor lost to, if it battled them again at the end of DP after its training, it would have whooped their ass lol. Strength is what matters at the end of the day lol, not which battles they show or don't know. But anyway, besides the fact that feats >>>>>>>> win rate, the other important thing that's not been brought up is how flawed the win rate stat even is.

Because of the way this show is written, each time a Pokémon wins, it's usually going to lose right after UNLESS it's the last Pokémon in the battle. Almost all of Ash's battles come down to just one Pokémon left at the end. That means all his other Pokémon had to take losses to get to that point. That's a pretty stupid way of measuring a stat. It means the only way Ash's Pokémon can ever improve their win rate is by either being the final Pokémon, or by beating multiple Pokémon in the same battle. As long as they keep getting 1W-1L in the same battle, their win rate goes nowhere, even though they freaking WON.

What a stupid stat lmao. What it really should be is that if a Pokémon gets a win, they get a win even if they lose afterwards. The only time a true "loss" should be recorded should be if they lose without beating anything.

So Sceptile beats Darkrai then loses to Latios. You're telling me this doesn't help him at all because it's 1W-1L? How stupid is that. Beating Darkrai didn't even help him in his win rate. What a stupid stat win rate is.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Besides the fact that feats are way more important than win rate. For example, all the Pokémon Gliscor lost to, if it battled them again at the end of DP after its training, it would have whooped their ass lol. Strength is what matters at the end of the day lol, not which battles they show or don't know. But anyway, besides the fact that feats >>>>>>>> win rate, the other important thing that's not been brought up is how flawed the win rate stat even is.

Because of the way this show is written, each time a Pokémon wins, it's usually going to lose right after UNLESS it's the last Pokémon in the battle. Almost all of Ash's battles come down to just one Pokémon left at the end. That means all his other Pokémon had to take losses to get to that point. That's a pretty stupid way of measuring a stat. It means the only way Ash's Pokémon can ever improve their win rate is by either being the final Pokémon, or by beating multiple Pokémon in the same battle. As long as they keep getting 1W-1L in the same battle, their win rate goes nowhere, even though they freaking WON.

What a stupid stat lmao. What it really should be is that if a Pokémon gets a win, they get a win even if they lose afterwards. The only time a true "loss" should be recorded should be if they lose without beating anything.

So Sceptile beats Darkrai then loses to Latios. You're telling me this doesn't help him at all because it's 1W-1L? How stupid is that. Beating Darkrai didn't even help him in his win rate. What a stupid stat win rate is.

Not since most of Ash's Pokémon actually have their proper feats, especially those with 10 Battles or more.

 

[Fernsday]

And Gliscor beating Drapion is a “proper” feat regardless of its losses PRIOR to training, excluding Paul’s Torterra(Even then he still managed to leave it panting prior to training) he would currently beat everyone he previously lost to without breaking a sweat and beating Drapion proved that

Not since most of Ash's Pokémon actually have their proper feats, especially those with 10 Battles or more.

 

[RafaSceptile]

And Gliscor beating Drapion is a “proper” feat regardless of its losses PRIOR to training, excluding Paul’s Torterra he would currently beat everyone he previously lost to without breaking a sweat and beating Drapion proved that

Yes, such as so many of other Ash's Pokémon have their proper feats with way better win Rates such as Bulbasaur, Rowlet, etc.

 

[Mew2]

Yes, such as so many of other Ash's Pokémon have their proper feats with way better win Rates such as Bulbasaur, Rowlet, etc.

Not only that, but Paul's Drapion had taken out much of the rest of Ash's team. Gliscor finishing it off is not necessarily a great feat for him since Drapion will have already taken damage and be tired from the previous battles.

 

[Fernsday]

Not only that, but Paul's Drapion had taken out much of the rest of Ash's team. Gliscor finishing it off is not necessarily a great feat for him since Drapion will have already taken damage and be tired from the previous battles.

False, took no hits from Staraptor. Took a water gun from Buizel that barely hurt it as said water gun was only used to escape, Torterra landed an Energy Ball and Leaf Storm, that’s all. Plus Gliscor took damage of its own before beating Drapion so it evens out, it took 5 Fury Cutters, ended up getting poisoned from Toxic Spikes and was shown to be visibly hurt from it before facing Drapion so no, the playing field was even for them as Gliscor took damage as well

 

[nickdt]

Imo, wins could only count towards the win rate if they are direct 1v1 match-ups (Both Pokemon having not fought previously) and without having any power-ups (If only one Pokemon gets them and obviously, an ability like Blaze isn't a power-up). Sawk vs Krookodile is the perfect example, since it was stated in the exact same episode that Krookodile would have lost if Leavanny wouldn't have tired and weakened Sawk for a direct 1v1 (Which means the Sawk win is just as much Leavanny's as Krookodile's), or Torracat vs Incineroar where Torracat got a power-up, while Incineroar didn't (The thing that was even worse for Torracat, is that Lycanroc hitting Incineroar diminishes the victory even more).

However, doing this elevates Pokemon with a lower win/rate, while it lowers Pokemon with a higher win/rate (Tauros would be way up there if we only take direct 1v1 match-ups for example, alongside Kingler, who won 3 1v1 direct match-ups back-to-back). It also means Double battles cannot count, unless only one gets targeted by only one Pokemon, which makes the winrate for some Pokemon even worse (Greninja and Swellow as examples).

 

[RafaSceptile]

Not only that, but Paul's Drapion had taken out much of the rest of Ash's team. Gliscor finishing it off is not necessarily a great feat for him since Drapion will have already taken damage and be tired from the previous battles.

Yes but Buizel, Staraptor and Torterra are not precisely strong, all of those Pokémon with less than 50% Win Rate

 

[TheCrazyMaster]

Sawk vs Krookodile is the perfect example, since it was stated in the exact same episode that Krookodile would have lost if Leavanny wouldn't have tired and weakened Sawk for a direct 1v1 (Which means the Sawk win is just as much Leavanny's as Krookodile's)

To be fair, Krookodile battled Liepard just before that and had taken quite a few hits itself, so I feel we could just as easily say that Sawk wouldn't even have came close to beating Krookodile had it not been for Liepards intervention.

 

[Fernsday]

I personally view the Kahunas as being on equal footing with Gym Leaders. The stronger Kahunas like Hapu'u and Kuchinashi are probably the equivalents of Urup and Ibuki.

Depends on the Gym Leader, I'd consider Hala's Hariyama to possibly be around 8th gym leader level or maybe slightly higher(Although likely weaker than your more "stronger" 8th gym leaders like Claire, Volkner and Wulfric with Wulfric arguably being around mid FB with Mega Abomasnow) we saw that he had said Hariyama for many years in SM125 and was also able to knock back Guzzlord quite a few metres with Arm Thrust and Guzzlord is depicted to be a lot stronger than your typical legendaries including the bird trio, etc in the anime. Nanu(Main thing that made his trial tough were his mind games plus attacking Ash as a person and putting his resolve to the test) and Olivia would probably be on a similar level with their respective aces, maybe a little lower than Hala's Hariyama based on feats(Somewhere around 7-8) as they were able to slightly knock back Guzzlord via a combination attack, although it should be kept in mind that Lycanroc needed its red eyed state to defeat Persian(Albeit Lycanroc was still quite tired despite the Sitrus Berry heal) and Lycanroc was able to tank multiple super-effective hits from Tapu Bulu and its Stone Edge knocked it back and prompted it to block just in its green eyed state, such feats arguably scale above the likes of Hawlucha and Talonflame who got one and two shotted by Zapdos respectively with the first shot to Talonflame just being a Charge Beam(Still think they'd beat Persian tho and clear Nanu's trial), also noticed some lowballing with Olivia in older forums when she clearly had the upper hand over Brock's Sudowoodo plus Brock was no longer a Gym Leader and would arguably beat most gym leaders going all out especially with Mega Steelix, if Leaders like Volkner and Wulfric are "abnormally strong" then why not Brock who is no longer the Gym Leader and has heavily implied to have continued training his Pokemon especially with the inclusion of now having a Mega Stone, I'm not saying he's as strong as Volkner and Wulfric but he's defs beating most Gym Leaders with his current mons. Hapu is a bit more ambiguous but I'd say she's on a similar level to Hala or possibly stronger

 

[TheCrazyMaster]

Depends on the Gym Leader, I'd consider Hala's Hariyama to possibly be around 8th gym leader level or maybe slightly higher(Although likely weaker than your more "stronger" 8th gym leaders like Claire, Volkner and Wulfric with Wulfric arguably being around mid FB with Mega Abomasnow) we saw that he had said Hariyama for many years in SM125 and was also able to knock back Guzzlord quite a few metres with Arm Thrust and Guzzlord is depicted to be a lot stronger than your typical legendaries including the bird trio, etc in the anime. Nanu(Main thing that made his trial tough were his mind games plus attacking Ash as a person and putting his resolve to the test) and Olivia would probably be on a similar level with their respective aces, maybe a little lower than Hala's Hariyama based on feats(Somewhere around 7-8) as they were able to slightly knock back Guzzlord via a combination attack, although it should be kept in mind that Lycanroc needed its red eyed state to defeat Persian(Albeit Lycanroc was still quite tired despite the Sitrus Berry heal) and Lycanroc was able to tank multiple super-effective hits from Tapu Bulu and its Stone Edge knocked it back and prompted it to block just in its green eyed state, such feats arguably scale above the likes of Hawlucha and Talonflame who got one and two shotted by Zapdos respectively with the first shot to Talonflame just being a Charge Beam(Still think they'd beat Persian tho and clear Nanu's trial), also noticed some lowballing with Olivia in older forums when she clearly had the upper hand over Brock's Sudowoodo plus Brock was no longer a Gym Leader and would arguably beat most gym leaders going all out especially with Mega Steelix, if Leaders like Volkner and Wulfric are "abnormally strong" then why not Brock who is no longer the Gym Leader and has heavily implied to have continued training his Pokemon especially with the inclusion of now having a Mega Stone, I'm not saying he's as strong as Volkner and Wulfric but he's defs beating most Gym Leaders with his current mons. Hapu is a bit more ambiguous but I'd say she's on a similar level to Hala or possibly stronger

Realistically speaking, wouldn't it make sense that most Gym Leaders/Kahunas have had their Pokemon for many years?
Also just to make a quick comparison, during the TF arc all the Kalos gym leaders were deflecting Megalith vines that were giving trouble to Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard x and Ash Greninja, yet I definitely don't think they're as strong as those guys, or even one another. I think in both the Megalith battle and the Guzzlord battle that power levels were played with for the sake of intensity.

 

[Fernsday]

Realistically speaking, wouldn't it make sense that most Gym Leaders/Kahunas have had their Pokemon for many years?
Also just to make a quick comparison, during the TF arc all the Kalos gym leaders were deflecting Megalith vines that were giving trouble to Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard x and Ash Greninja, yet I definitely don't think they're as strong as those guys, or even one another. I think in both the Megalith battle and the Guzzlord battle that power levels were played with for the sake of intensity.

Megalith Vines are not as concrete as directly facing up against what’s arguably the strongest UB we’ve seen in the series. Said vines don’t necessarily equate to directly facing a legendary or a Pokémon in general. Plus wouldn’t necessarily say PLs were played up in Guzzlord given that a combination attack from Sophocles, Mallow and Lana essentially unfazed Guzzlord(If you wanna be nitpicky it knocked it back like one millimetre lmao), while Gladion’s ML’s Stone Edge was able to knock it over which seems pretty consistent.