How strong do you think Ash's pokemon are?

[Deleted member 384931]

Tbh I dont how to rank all of them

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Tbh I dont how to rank all of them

Nobody does. It's kind of a moot question anyway because pokémon will always be as strong as the plot demands them to be.

 

[Aduro]

Nobody does. It's kind of a moot question anyway because pokémon will always be as strong as the plot demands them to be.

Inconsistency was always the strongest force lol
But the Elite 4 were more or less sacred until Alain beat Malva. That opened the door for non Elite-4 and non-legandaries like to Lysandre and Ash tobecome comparable to them.

Alola might have done the same, given that Ash won a league, and beat the region's strongest trainer in Kukui. But that league had so many pushovers in it, and I can't actually remember how Kukui's history with the Kanto gyms and elites compares to the allusions to them in the games.

 

[Ignition]

Tbh I dont how to rank all of them

To be fair, Unfezant>anything else is all you need to know. Everything else is pointless if nothing will amount to it.

 

[CMButch]

Both Mega Garchomp and base Garchomp would survive 10MV. They're both ground types.

Yeah, but I was talking more on hypothetical scenario if 10MV works on Garchomp since C's G is often said to be the strongest Base Champion Pokemon.

 

[Deleted member 384931]

Lets assume that pokemon who participated in 1/8 finals until the finals are elite four material.

 

[Ubermuk]

Things like Peekachu, Ash-Greninja and Charizard are champion level or around that. Things like Sceptile, Snorlax, Krookodile and Infernape are E4 level.

 

[nickdt]

High Champion tier: Charizard/Pikachu
Low Champion tier: Infernape, Snorlax, Sceptile,
E4 tier: Krookodile, Glalie, Talonflame, Tauros, Squirtle, Bulbasaur
Battle Frontier tier: Donphan, Heracross, Swellow, Hawlucha, Lycanroc, Melmetal, Gliscor, Pignite, Incineroar, Leavanny
Lower tiers: The rest of his mons
Lowest tier: Noivern

However, realistically we cannot judge Pokemon this way.
Based on the Orange Islands Arc: Charizard, Pikachu, Tauros, Squirtle and Bulbasaur are all Champion Tier (Tauros, Squirtle and Bulbasaur low Champion, while Pikachu and Charizard are high champion).
If we then take the Battle Frontier, we have to judge every Pokemon that participated there, which kinda poses a problem already, since Glalie didn't participate, while it did outclass both Grovyle and Swellow during the Hoenn League, which means its at least on par with Swellow or its stronger. Its safe to say Grovyle became stronger than Glalie when it evolved, but for Swellow, we cannot be so sure, since we cannot compare the mons.
Thats the same problem with every other Pokemon Ash caught after Sinnoh: We cannot compare them with the others.
Looking at the Kalos team: Talonflame, Greninja and Hawlucha are all way stronger than the Alola team, due to the badge quest and amount of battles they fought and we have to take into account the different league formats as well, which is not in the favor of the Alola team.

 

[TheCrazyMaster]

The thing about tiers is that it doesn't exactly give an exact measurement in terms of power.
For instance, while gym leaders are generally considered weaker than FB and E4, the fact is that some of them like Raihan (based off of scans) could be considered Champion level, along with Clair and Wulfric having Pokemon that could possibly being low Champ/E4 tier. I could say that any one of Ash's Pokemon, say Heracross is gym leader tier, but that could put it anywhere, and ultimately I think that what tier some of the strongest go on depends on the quality of the trainer. Ash's Torterra for instance is roughly as strong as Bertha's Hippowdon, and they were clashing with one another with enough force to tear up the very earth around them, but ultimately the victory came down to who was the better at using their Pokemon.

So if we're looking at the peak version of Ash Ketchum with all his peak battling competence from each series, then I actually think that the majority of Ash's Pokemon, namely his BF, Sinnoh league and Kalos Pokemon plus a few others could be considered mainly E4 tier but also possibly Champ tier, but they could all go down to Gym leader tier if we look at a relatively ok version of Ash like in OS.

 

[thedarkdragon11]

I think we can only gauge their tiers once they all participate in a battle competition wherein every opponents are of the same tier, if not higher, just like BF... The Hyper Class of PWC would be the closest we can get since moving up across that class would most likely be slow (you need to battle almost everybody to move up)... Hoping that Ash captures for this series wraps up before moving up to that class and that majority, if not all, of his mons can participate in rotation...

 

[SerenaRulez]

I think we can only gauge their tiers once they all participate in a battle competition wherein every opponents are of the same tier, if not higher, just like BF... The Hyper Class of PWC would be the closest we can get since moving up across that class would most likely be slow (you need to battle almost everybody to move up)... Hoping that Ash captures for this series wraps up before moving up to that class and that majority, if not all, of his mons can participate in rotation...

Sadly we won't see them all battle Pokemon of the same tier because Ash has way too many spare Pokemon and he's not going to be able to use them all in the same competition.

But I think most of Ash's top battlers like Charizard and Sceptile have proven that they are almost at E4 level because of their achievements against legendary Pokemon.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

But I think most of Ash's top battlers like Charizard and Sceptile have proven that they are almost at E4 level because of their achievements against legendary Pokemon.

I'm not convinced that it's almost E4 level when it took the combined effort of Heracross,Torkoal,Gible,Sceptile to eliminate Tobias's Darkrai.It would have been more impressive if Sceptile was brought out first and managed to KO it without any help.It's too bad Charizard vs Reshiram didn't happen.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

Well, I can certainly tell you their years...months...days of experience aren't enough to defeat a measly Charizard foe, I can tell you that.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

High Elite Four: Hypothetical Mega Charizard Y (Charicific Valley Training)

Low Elite Four: Charizard (Vs Dragonite)

Battle Frontier Brain: Charizard (Vs Articuno)

Pokemon League: Charizard (Vs Blastoise)

8th Gym Badge: Charizard (Vs Magmar)

 

[Genaller]

Might as well post the stuff in my sig here lol:

T+: 10MVT Peakachu (when 10MVT hits successfully)
T-: Ash-Greninja
Z: Peakachu
Z-: Blaze Infernape
S+: Charizard
S: Overall Infernape
S-: Sceptile, Incineroar, Base Infernape, Base Greninja
A+: Snorlax, Naganadel
A: Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross, Melmetal, Lycanroc
A-: Gible, Torkoal
B+: Swellow, Gliscor, Squirtle, Hawlucha
B: Glalie, Kingler
B-: Talonflame, Goodra, Pignite, Torterra
C+: Buizel, Corphish, Quilava, Rowlet, Leavanny
C: Bayleef, Staraptor, Noivern, Tauros, Snivy
C-: Noctowl, Donphan, Palpitoad
D+: Scraggy
D: Oshawott, Totodile
D-: Boldore, Unfezzant
Limbo: Butterfree, Pidgeot, Primeape, Muk, Lapras

As a measure of how this corresponds to the ‘elite’ lvl T+ would be Champion Mega Ace lvl, Z+ would be Champion Base Ace lvl, Z+ - T- would be E4 Mega Ace lvl and S+ - Z- would be elite 4 Base Ace lvl. Not sure about Champion non-aces, but E4 non-aces would generally be somewhere in the A+ - S range.

Note: I’m saying ‘Peakachu’ instead of Pikachu because Pikachu is way too inconsistent (even within the same saga) to be properly tiered. Peakachu is basically Pikachu’s rating based on his successive ‘peak’ trainer battle feats. As of now those would be against the following trainers: Surge 2nd battle -> OI Drake -> Clair 2nd battle -> Juan -> Tyson -> Lucy -> Anabel 2nd battle -> Brandon 4 vs 4 -> Tobias -> Alain 6 vs 6 -> Kukui 6 vs 6.

Worth noting is that against Kukui specifically it was only vs Tapu Koko when Peakachu came out (the battle with Empoleon was merely a warm up). I’m also sure an inevitable Gigantamax Peakachu will place even higher.

I’m fairly confident that I can defend any of these placements to within a sub-tier of where I have them. Let me know if you need elaboration on any of my placements or relative placements (e.g. so and so being above so and so).

 

[CMButch]

Might as well post the stuff in my sig here lol:

T+: 10MVT Peakachu (when 10MVT hits successfully)
T-: Ash-Greninja
Z: Peakachu
Z-: Blaze Infernape
S+: Charizard
S: Overall Infernape
S-: Sceptile, Incineroar, Base Infernape, Base Greninja
A+: Snorlax, Naganadel
A: Krookodile, Bulbasaur, Heracross, Melmetal, Lycanroc
A-: Gible, Torkoal
B+: Swellow, Gliscor, Squirtle, Hawlucha
B: Glalie, Kingler
B-: Talonflame, Goodra, Pignite, Torterra
C+: Buizel, Corphish, Quilava, Rowlet, Leavanny
C: Bayleef, Staraptor, Noivern, Tauros, Snivy
C-: Noctowl, Donphan, Palpitoad
D+: Scraggy
D: Oshawott, Totodile
D-: Boldore, Unfezzant
Limbo: Butterfree, Pidgeot, Primeape, Muk, Lapras

As a measure of how this corresponds to the ‘elite’ lvl T+ would be Champion Mega Ace lvl, Z+ would be Champion Base Ace lvl, Z+ - T- would be E4 Mega Ace lvl and S+ - Z- would be elite 4 Base Ace lvl. Not sure about Champion non-aces, but E4 non-aces would generally be somewhere in the A+ - S range.

Note: I’m saying ‘Peakachu’ instead of Pikachu because Pikachu is way too inconsistent (even within the same saga) to be properly tiered. Peakachu is basically Pikachu’s rating based on his successive ‘peak’ trainer battle feats. As of now those would be against the following trainers: Surge 2nd battle -> OI Drake -> Clair 2nd battle -> Juan -> Tyson -> Lucy -> Anabel 2nd battle -> Brandon 4 vs 4 -> Tobias -> Alain 6 vs 6 -> Kukui 6 vs 6.

Worth noting is that against Kukui specifically it was only vs Tapu Koko when Peakachu came out (the battle with Empoleon was merely a warm up). I’m also sure an inevitable Gigantamax Peakachu will place even higher.

I’m fairly confident that I can defend any of these placements to within a sub-tier of where I have them. Let me know if you need elaboration on any of my placements or relative placements (e.g. so and so being above so and so).

I have a few.
1. What is overall Infernape? I only know of Base Infernape and Blazeape. Sceptile should be close to Blazeape but still weaker.
2.Incineroar is too high, he should be on Snorlax level. He would only be on Sceptile level if IO hits( if he uses Z move)
3.Based on what Naganadel is on Snorlax level? Naganadel only beat featless Lucario who get destroyed by Guzzlord and only did some work against Tapu Koko aka wild Pokemon( which is similar manner to Articuno vs Charizard and Charizard actually won, while Naganadel couldn't win). Naganadel is weaker than Melmetal and Lycanroc. It goes: Incineroar with IO > Incineroar >> Melmetal > Lycanroc > Naganadel > Rowlet.
4.Torkoal is little bit low or some Pokemon like Lycanroc and Melmetal are little high. Torkoal made Registeel -- high FB level Pokemon kneel. Lycanroc didn't do anything as such, while Melmetal lost to Silvally who is nowhere near Registeel level.
5.Gible's DM( this is tricky) because Tobias said that or implied that Gible's DM would beat his Latios who is = DP Peakachu. So, it depends. If Gible's DM hits any Pokemon above except GPCIISS, Gible wins.
6.Swellow is also little bit low, Swellow did actually battle and beat FB and thanks to his performance in a league, while some Pokemon like some Alolamons couldn't. I would put Swellow around Melmetal level and Melmetal > Lycanroc.
7.Talonflame is also low: Talonflame beat Avalugg who beat Hawlucha, Talonflame and A-G who was depressed. Sure A-G was not E4 level at that time sure... but it's not like he dropped down to gym level. He was still some FB level. Talonflame should be stronger than some Pokemon up there like Glalie and Melmetal and Lycanroc.
8.Gliscor is also little low since he would beat Melmetal and DL.

So either some Pokemon are little low or Alolamons are too high. I think it's latter.

 

[Genaller]

I have a few.
1. What is overall Infernape? I only know of Base Infernape and Blazeape. Sceptile should be close to Blazeape but still weaker.

Blazeape specifically means the form Infernape takes when special blaze activates; however Infernape has to be low on health (let’s use the game’s model here and say it has to be =< 1/3rd health), so overall Infernape is an estimate of his overall battle viability with that fact in mind (being in base for >= 2/3rds of his health and in special Blaze for =< 1/3rd). In Blaze state Infernape is able to thoroughly dominate high calibre pokémon like Volkner’s Luxray and Paul’s Motordrive boosted Electivire, and Sceptile hasn’t shown anything to indicate it could do the same. Of course once again Blaze can only activate when Infernape is low on health, so overall Infernape and Sceptile are a good deal closer.

2.Incineroar is too high, he should be on Snorlax level. He would only be on Sceptile level if IO hits( if he uses Z move)

I’m assigning that based on it dealing the bulk of the damage on Kukui’s Incineroar and forcing a draw. This would be due to me placing Kukui’s Incineroar in E4 Base Ace lvl (so at least S+) which I think he’s earned given how dominantly he’s been portrayed and how he is the ace of the strongest Alolan trainer. For a concrete feat consider how Melmetal was able to give a competitive fight vs Gladion’s Silvally (even after the latter got a fight drive) yet got wrecked by Kukui’s Incineroar (at a type disadvantage sure, but there should still be no mistake that Incineroar was substantially stronger).

On the note of Incineroar I think his case works similarly to when Goku had to get help to awaken God Ki but then absorbed it and could use it himself. Initially Torracat got a massive ‘stat’ boost from absorbing Kukui’s Incineroar’s flames (so not part of his normal power), but after evolving he ‘made’ that power his own meaning that’s now his normal strength.

3.Based on what Naganadel is on Snorlax level? Naganadel only beat featless Lucario who get destroyed by Guzzlord and only did some work against Tapu Koko aka wild Pokemon( which is similar manner to Articuno vs Charizard and Charizard actually won, while Naganadel couldn't win). Naganadel is weaker than Melmetal and Lycanroc.

Based on portrayal Tapu Koko is stronger than Incineroar (he was the last pokémon Kukui used and the climactic boss of the entire saga). For Naganadel to keep up with Tapu Koko after having a competitive battle with Lucario (whether it has feats is irrelevant here; what matters is that Naganadel had a difficult time beating it and hence would be fairly damaged going into the Tapu Koko battle) speaks volumes given how strong Tapu Koko should be (Z- at least and likely even Z as that would make him comparable to where Base AL Peakachu would be). Tiering Naganadel any lower would just be insulting to Tapu Koko’s strength.

4.Torkoal is little bit low or some Pokemon like Lycanroc and Melmetal are little high. Torkoal made Registeel like high FB level Pokemon kneel. Lycanroc didn't do anything as such, while Melmetal lost to Silvally who is nowhere near Registeel level.
5.Gible's DM( this is tricky) because Tobias said that or implied that Gible's DM would beat his Latios who is = DP Peakachu. So, it depends. If Gible's DM hits any Pokemon above except GPCIISS, Gible wins.

What I’m using here is what I’d call ‘the law of mild variations’. Basically I think Torkoal gave a performance worthy of at least an A against Registeel but his performance against Darkrai is no better than a B+ (Darkrai would be about S+ and usually 2 full tiers is the difference where 1 pokémon can utterly stomp the other), so I aggregated it to A-. Bascially Torkoal had a relatively good day against Registeel and a relatively bad day against Darkrai (I find this to be a lot better than attributing one of those fights to be a drastic outlier). Melmetal’s placement is mainly based on the compeittive fight if gave Silvally and Lycanroc’s is based on winning a 1 vs 3 (and would’ve won more convincingly and without need for a berry had Ash remembered Stone Edge from the start) + Getting significant damage in on Kukui’s Incineroar (type advantage yes, but still notable).

6.Swellow is also little bit low, Swellow did actually battle and beat FB, while some Pokemon like Alolamons couldn't.

Well so did Corphish, Donphan and Tauros. I especially can’t imagine Donphan being considered strong for an Ash pokémon after that pitiful performance against Conway (it literally did nothing). I don’t think FB indicates any inherent lvl of strength (just that on average they’re far above gym leaders which I still do subscribe to). Swellow has never performed well against a truly strong pokémon for example getting wrecked by Spencer’s Claydol despite not taking any hits from Venasaur (albeit having stamina drain) and getting utterly massacred by Tobias’s Latios. Yeah same happened to Torkoal with Darkrai but Torkoal has the Registeel feat to lift him back up and Swellow has nothing comparable.

7.Talonflame is also low: Talonflame beat Avalugg who beat Hawlucha, Talonflame and A-G who was depressed. Sure A-G was not E4 level at that time sure... but it's not like he dropped down to gym level. He was still FB level. Talonflame should be stronger than some Pokemon up there like Glalie and Alola mons.

Yeah the way I rationalize it is that Avalugg gets some sort of substantial power boost when under the effects of ice body + Ash’s pokémon in general were much weaker than their peak selves (Wulfric even says that this time he can see the fire in Ash’s pokémon indicating they were performing at a notably higher lvl and on that note for A-G he literally says it’s like a completely different pokémon making any comparisons to the A-G used in the first battle meaningless). The main problem with Talonflame is it’s under performance against Sawyer where it beat a wounded Slaking and then lost to Clawitzer without much trouble. If not for that it’d definitely be at B or even B+.

8.Gliscor is also little low since he would beat Alolamons.

Gliscor is 1 case where I would fully accept someone rating it higher than I do. It did the bulk of the work against Drapion and still had enough to tank battlefield thunder from Electivire, and back when it was far weaker, it made Paul’s freakin Torterra pant (post Giga Drain healing). Yeah it was part of Paul’s greater strategy to let Ash get several hits in on Torrtera but still notable given that it did end up having a noticeable effect. It really depends on how much damage specifically you think Gliscor got on Drapion (60%? 70%? 80%?) vs how much damage Buizel and especially Torterra got in on it. I don’t think it should be quite on the same lvl as Torkoal and Gible (although it would be fine if you thought that given his feats) though I’d be willing to say he’s at the borderline of B+/A-, but I definitely don’t see him beating Melmetal or DL.

So either some Pokemon are little low or Alolamons are too high. I think it's latter.

Don’t get me wrong; I definitely don’t think most of the Alolan pokémon have earned the strength they were portrayed to have, but feats wise they still have shown enough to warrant giving them the crown of Ash’s strongest team no matter how much I hate admitting it.

 

[Leonhart]

But I think most of Ash's top battlers like Charizard and Sceptile have proven that they are almost at E4 level because of their achievements against legendary Pokemon.

From my viewpoint, Legendary Pokemon have become less impressive as the series progresses, so beating a Legendary Pokemon doesn't quite feel as special these days as it did in earlier sagas. Therefore I personally don't think that Satoshi's Pokemon beating Legendaries means that they're at the level of the Four Heavenly Kings, although other factors could be used to claim that Lizardon and Pikachu are close to that.

 

[Epicocity]

Don’t get me wrong; I definitely don’t think most of the Alolan pokémon have earned the strength they were portrayed to have, but feats wise they still have shown enough to warrant giving them the crown of Ash’s strongest team no matter how much I hate admitting it.

I think my personal problem with this kind of assessment is that we don't have any way to quantify or qualify Ash's opponents in SM since a good 90% of them are featless. We saw Lucario job just a few episodes before Naganadel fought it; we've only seen Incineroar oneshot things before the exhibition battle; we see even more wildly inconsistent strength across SM both as a result of most battles being Z-Moves (the most arbitrary metric to ever be arbitrary for a battle) and oneshots or just there being so few battles.

I guess I'm saying I think it's unfair to the other teams that show a lot more feats against opponents that either have an established position (i.e. Champion) or feats (like Alain's). Or are we going to say Rowlet's really great when he went from getting a free shot against a confirmed beginner's Decidueye and still barely winning to suddenly beating Kukui's Braviary without issue? Or the fact Lycanroc, the supposed ace for 50% of the series, got all of one win in the Alola League?

SM is just so arbitrary I don't think they can ever be ranked relative to anyone else. Hell, Gengar can be ranked better and he's only been around for less than 10 episodes!

 

[Genaller]

I think my personal problem with this kind of assessment is that we don't have any way to quantify or qualify Ash's opponents in SM since a good 90% of them are featless. We saw Lucario job just a few episodes before Naganadel fought it; we've only seen Incineroar oneshot things before the exhibition battle; we see even more wildly inconsistent strength across SM both as a result of most battles being Z-Moves (the most arbitrary metric to ever be arbitrary for a battle) and oneshots or just there being so few battles.

Admittedly the ‘feat chain’ if you will starts from Gladion’s Silvally who can be assumed to have a certain lvl of strength due to being a trained legendary (let’s say at least the lvl of BF Articuno, Registeel and Regice). For anyone who doesn’t accept that assumption, then yeah SM feats are pretty arbitrary.

I guess I'm saying I think it's unfair to the other teams that show a lot more feats against opponents that either have an established position (i.e. Champion) or feats (like Alain's). Or are we going to say Rowlet's really great when he went from getting a free shot against a confirmed beginner's Decidueye and still barely winning to suddenly beating Kukui's Braviary without issue? Or the fact Lycanroc, the supposed ace for 50% of the series, got all of one win in the Alola League?

I will say that it’s implied that Rowlet only won cuz Braviary was semi-crippled by Lycanroc. Feats wise he is easily the weakest member of the alola team.

SM is just so arbitrary I don't think they can ever be ranked relative to anyone else. Hell, Gengar can be ranked better and he's only been around for less than 10 episodes!

It really is lol, but I still had to try. Lmao I look forward to seeing that when I finally get around to watching Pokémon 2019.