How strong do you think Ash's pokemon are?

[Spider-Phoenix]

You guys care too much about this geez. At the end of the day, writers choose who is stronger

Truer words were never spoken.

That's why I don't bother with power level discussions.

 

[Fernsday]

Truer words were never spoken.

That's why I don't bother with power level discussions.

Yeeeeeeeah this was incredibly time consuming

 

[nickdt]

Yes, Bad Win Rate = Weak, and the feats are relevant when you compare Pokémon with similar Win Rates, so ir isn't relevant between Gliscor vs Talonflame/Hawlucha or Swellow or Noctowl or Rowlet.
Those Pokémon have their proper feats like defeating Kukui's Braviary or make a good Battle against Wulfric (one of the strongest Gym Leaders) etc but with actual good Win Rates

Bad win rate = weak. Except this is not the case.
Talonflame has better feats than regular Greninja ever did (So based on win/rate, separate the wins the form got compared to the regular one and Greninja is his weakest water typem since Kingler, Palpitoad, Squirtle, Corphish and Oshawott have a higher win rate than Greninja has). However, the amount of battles and the feats are also an indication: Pokemon who fight more battles, naturally have a lower win/loss rate than Pokemon who don't fight more. Prime example is Goodra here: It has a higher win/loss rate than Talonflame and Hawlucha, however, it only has fought in just 3 official battles, where it won 1, lost 1 and had 1 draw.
Tauros as another example is a Pokemon that has a lower win/loss rate than the majority of his Unova mons and Goodra, however, it fought more battles and its feats are better (It took Drakes cheating Dragonite on its horn and defeated Drakes Venusaur (His second strongest mon) and had a draw Annabel's Metagross during the Battle Frontier, not to speak that it defeated the strongest Tauros in Johto at the time as well. Tauros is by no means his strongest mon, but its not one of his weakest either, despite the win/loss rate saying otherwise.

 

[RafaSceptile]

Bad win rate = weak. Except this is not the case.
Talonflame has better feats than regular Greninja ever did (So based on win/rate, separate the wins the form got compared to the regular one and Greninja is his weakest water type).

Greninja is Ash's 2nd highest Water Type Pokémon by Win Rate only below Kingler, and Even then those are very similar:

Kingler: 5-2-0 (71.43%)
Greninja: 16-7-1 (68.00%)

 

[nickdt]

Greninja is Ash's 2nd highest Water Type Pokémon by Win Rate only below Kingler, and Even then those are very similar:

Kingler: 5-2-0 (71.43%)
Greninja: 16-7-1 (68.00%)

Like i said: Take Ash-Greninja's wins out of regular Greninja's feats.
Regular Greninja only had 6 (Yes, i count the first battle with Wulfric, since Ash-Greninja wasn't perfected yet) official battles.
Grant - Won against Onix, lost against Tyrunt
Ramos - Won against Gogoat and Weepinbell (However, Weepinbell was weakened beforehand)
Olympia: Won against both Meowstic (However, Talonflame was the MVP of that battle, since without Talonflame carrying that battle, Frogadier would have lost) and it was a double effort, so its basically a half battle for both Frogadier and Talonflame.
Wulfric 1: Greninja lost against Avalugg.

So as you see, regular Greninja's battles aren't as impressive as presented, since aside from the Ramos battle, it was either at an advantage, neutral or needed help else it would have lost.

Also: Like already said before: Win/Rate means absolutely nothing.
If we take win/rate, Pikachu, Charizard and Sceptile are mediocore mons. However, the thing you need to take into account are feats and what i also personally always take into account is a direct 1v1 match-up (Both Pokemon are fresh), with the prime example here being Sawk vs Krookodile. Krookodile would have lost against a fresh Sawk if Leavanny didn't weak it before (As such, i don't count that towards a full win for Krookodile, but a half win for both Krookodile and Leavanny, since both contributed in the loss of Sawk and thus the finisher for Krookodile).

 

[Leonhart]

Greninja is Ash's 2nd highest Water Type Pokémon by Win Rate only below Kingler, and Even then those are very similar:

Kingler: 5-2-0 (71.43%)
Greninja: 16-7-1 (68.00%)

I can't quite remember who Kingler's fifth victory was against, however: I know that he beat Nassy, Seadra, Golbat, and Parshen at the Sekiei League, but that's all I remember.

 

[Applecorp]

I can't quite remember who Kingler's fifth victory was against, however: I know that he beat Nassy, Seadra, Golbat, and Parshen at the Sekiei League, but that's all I remember.

He beat Misty's Poliwhirl too at the Whirl Cup but then lost to Psyduck right after.

 

[TheCrazyMaster]

I think the best way to describe how i feel about win percentages compared to strength is to use an extreme irl example.

Let's say you have a professional wrestler. He looses 50 percent of his wrestling matches and puts up a good fight in the ones that he looses. Then we have a twelve year old who wrestles 8 year olds at the playground and always wins no sweat. Does that mean that he/she is better than the pro wrestler. Absolutely not. The pro wrestler has much more going for him in terms of feats.
Feats definitely surpass win percentage in terms of power measurement. Pokemon like Torterra and Torkoal aren't top 6's or even 10's but they're definitely up there with the strong mons rather than average mons in Ash's possession.

Also if win percentage=strength then Dragonite is the strongest Pokemon Ash has ever had since it's never lost a single battle.

 

[Leonhart]

He beat Misty's Poliwhirl too at the Whirl Cup but then lost to Psyduck right after.

I had completely forgotten about his win against Kasumi's Nyorozo since to me Kingler's battle against Koduck stands out more, primarily because that loss in particular sticks out as one of Satoshi's silliest battle decisions of the Jouto saga since he could've easily won had he not made the amateur mistake of having Kingler attack Koduck's head.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I think the best way to describe how i feel about win percentages compared to strength is to use an extreme irl example.

Let's say you have a professional wrestler. He looses 50 percent of his wrestling matches and puts up a good fight in the ones that he looses. Then we have a twelve year old who wrestles 8 year olds at the playground and always wins no sweat. Does that mean that he/she is better than the pro wrestler. Absolutely not. The pro wrestler has much more going for him in terms of feats.
Feats definitely surpass win percentage in terms of power measurement. Pokemon like Torterra and Torkoal aren't top 6's or even 10's but they're definitely up there with the strong mons rather than average mons in Ash's possession.

Also if win percentage=strength then Dragonite is the strongest Pokemon Ash has ever had since it's never lost a single battle.

Torterra and Torkoal barely contribute to the team in comparison with the rest of their teams not named Gliscor. Those two definitely are in the worst Ash's Pokémon until now.

 

[TheCrazyMaster]

Torterra and Torkoal barely contribute to the team in comparison with the rest of their teams not named Gliscor. Those two definitely are in the worst Ash's Pokémon until now.

I somewhat agree with your first statement, but if we're talking about strength then I beg to differ, as I still stand by my irl scenario for referance when looking at raw power alone.

 

[Mew2]

I had completely forgotten about his win against Kasumi's Nyorozo since to me Kingler's battle against Koduck stands out more, primarily because that loss in particular sticks out as one of Satoshi's silliest battle decisions of the Jouto saga since he could've easily won had he not made the amateur mistake of having Kingler attack Koduck's head.

I've heard some people say that Ash actually threw that fight and made that mistake on purpose since Misty didn't intend to use Psyduck in that battle. I know it wasn't mentioned in the episode or series, but I would not discount that possibility since there was no way Ash could not have known that that would have happened. Either that, or he just wanted to really test Kingler's strength.

 

[Leonhart]

I've heard some people say that Ash actually threw that fight and made that mistake on purpose since Misty didn't intend to use Psyduck in that battle. I know it wasn't mentioned in the episode or series, but I would not discount that possibility since there was no way Ash could not have known that that would have happened. Either that, or he just wanted to really test Kingler's strength.

I just feel that it would've been very out of character of him to take pity on Kasumi just because Koduck was sent out when Kasumi didn't mean for it to battle. Satoshi seemed just as passionate about beating Kasumi as Kasumi was of beating him, so I don't know if I buy the theory about Satoshi throwing the match just for her sake.

 

[SerenaRulez]

I've heard some people say that Ash actually threw that fight and made that mistake on purpose since Misty didn't intend to use Psyduck in that battle. I know it wasn't mentioned in the episode or series, but I would not discount that possibility since there was no way Ash could not have known that that would have happened. Either that, or he just wanted to really test Kingler's strength.

That's possible but if there was not a specific hint about that in the episode then it feels more like Ash just had a blond moment and forgot about Psyduck's headaches.

 

[Fernsday]

Torterra and Torkoal barely contribute to the team in comparison with the rest of their teams not named Gliscor. Those two definitely are in the worst Ash's Pokémon until now.

Agreed with the “contribute” part but that doesn’t make them weak whatsoever, once again feats are more important. Torterra>Staraptor and Buizel as it did a better job against Drapion than those two plus once again took multiple hits from an E4 member who was actually fighting Torterra unlike Cynthia’s Garchomp who essentially let Axew hit it multiple times with Cynthia never commanding it to dodge and only let out one Draco Meteor as a test, now I am not saying Drapion’s E4 level for beating Torterra, not at all, but both Torterra and Drapion are definitely between low-mid FB level, possibly even mid and seeing as how Drapion was picked over his Nidoking who took a Flash Cannon without much strain from Brandon’s Registeel and landed multiple hits of his own and was picked over Hariyama who was able to block Regirock’s Stone Edge+Tank a Shock Wave yet it’s heavily implied Drapion was more reliable/stronger than Nidoking and Hariyama as Paul is a smart trainer and he put his Sinnoh League team together as an attempt to counter Ash’s Pokémon and he wouldn’t pick Drapion over those two Pokémon for nothing. Torkoal brought Registeel to its knees and tanked multiple hits from it and once again, Gliscor defeated Drapion that easily beat Torterra who despite losing still has displayed feats better than Ash’s average Pokémon, sometimes one major win or feat such as that is all we need(Especially since it’s after his training and at his strongest) plus it isn’t valid to bring up Gliscor’s past losses as they were prior to his training, especially both of his losses with McCann’s Scizor as he has very likely surpassed it given that he had completed training right before the league and didn’t need any more as well as opponents like Snover and Paul’s own Gliscor whom he is far stronger than both after training at this point

 

[RafaSceptile]

Agreed with the “contribute” part but that doesn’t make them weak whatsoever, once again feats are more important. Torterra>Staraptor and Buizel as it did a better job against Drapion than those two plus once again took multiple hits from an E4 member who was actually fighting Torterra unlike Cynthia’s Garchomp who essentially let Axew hit it multiple times with Cynthia never commanding it to dodge and only let out one Draco Meteor as a test, now I am not saying Drapion’s E4 level for beating Torterra, not at all, but both Torterra and Drapion are definitely between low-mid FB level, possibly even mid and seeing as how Drapion was picked over his Nidoking who took multiple hits from Brandon’s Regis and landed hits of his own heavily implied Drapion was more reliable/stronger than Nidoking, Paul is a smart trainer and he put his Sinnoh League team together as an attempt to counter Ash’s Pokémon. Torkoal brought Registeel to its knees and tanked multiple hits from it and once again, Gliscor defeated Drapion that easily beat Torterra who despite losing still has displayed feats better than Ash’s average Pokémon, sometimes one major win or feat such as that is all we need(Especially since it’s after his training and at his strongest) plus it isn’t valid to bring up Gliscor’s past losses as they were prior to his training, especially both of his losses with McCann’s Scizor as he has very likely surpassed it given that he had completed training right before the league and didn’t need any more as well as opponents like Snover and Paul’s own Gliscor whom he is far stronger than both after training at this point

Torterra is not even close to Battle Frontier level with that disastrous Battle Record. If Torterra is Battle Frontier level, Sceptile is Champion Level and Bulbasaur and Rowlet are Elite 4 Level, lmao

 

[Fernsday]

Torterra is not even close to Battle Frontier level with that disastrous Battle Record. If Torterra is Battle Frontier level, Sceptile is Champion Level and Bulbasaur and Rowlet are Elite 4 Level, lmao

Once again, bringing up win rate again, win rate doesn’t mean anything if you don’t have good feats, which Torterra does. Drapion scales above Paul’s Nidoking and Hariyama who could tank hits from Regis+dish out hits of their own, yet Gliscor beat said Drapion. On the basis of feats, Sceptile is around Elite 4 level, Bulbasaur is high FB level(Excluding Regis) and Rowlet is around mid FB level-high(Could very likely beat the likes of Brandon’s Ninjask and Solrock) to answer that

 

[RafaSceptile]

Once again, bringing up win rate again, win rate doesn’t mean anything if you don’t have good feats, which Torterra does. Drapion scales above Paul’s Nidoking and Hariyama who could tank hits from Regis+dish out hits of their own, yet Gliscor beat said Drapion

Most of those Pokémon have their proper feats, including Sceptile, Rowlet and Bulbasaur.

If Torterra is BF Tier (spoiler: It isn't), then Rowlet and Bulbasaur are E4 Tier (both were way better than Torterra) and Sceptile is Champion Tier (decent Battle Record with a way biggest feat than Torterra, Bulbasaur and Rowlet)

 

[Fernsday]

Most of those Pokémon have their proper feats, including Sceptile, Rowlet and Bulbasaur.

If Torterra is BF Tier (spoiler: It isn't), then Rowlet and Bulbasaur are E4 Tier (both were way better than Torterra) and Sceptile is Champion Tier (decent Battle Record with a way biggest feat than Torterra, Bulbasaur and Rowlet)

And Torterra has its proper feats as well lmao, losing to Pokémon stronger than it doesn’t invalidate its feats whatsoever. Spoiler: Feats>Win Rate.

 

[Fernsday]

Drapion scales well above Hariyama and Nidoking especially given how Paul picked it over those two which puts it around mid FB level. Gliscor>Drapion therefore Gliscor>Noctowl ‍