How Strong is Ash's Charizard?

[Power Up]

He's likely capable of at least defeating a Champion's ace, unless they Mega Evolve. :x

No, do you people worship Charizard that much? Even a " XYer " like me knows that Ash-Greninja would have taken MG down low and " might " have won but still would have probably lost.

On a serious note, some of these arguments ugh. This is why you need an elder statesmen:




And why do none of these do substantial damage? Why can't Flamethrower counter Water Shuriken (cause an explosion)?



Why? Because you said so.




Ash's Charizard shares one common move, and one similar (Dragon Tail ~ Dragon Claw) move with Alain's. Blast Burn, albeit powerful, is a move that AG can type-resist to some extent and it's not easily spammable. Only move that is effective is Thunder Punch.



Would have been useful against MCX, eh?


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You said it. That's because I already told you my opinion regarding your poll options.


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Fact of the matter is, BW didn't do anything to show the extent of Charizard's power. He probably could have finished off Iris' Dragonite in one more blow, and IIRC he sent a Ninetails plummeting to its death.

I don't think there's any question that Charizard is way more battle-tested than AG. Could he defeat AG though? I don't know. The whole point of when I started promoting a tier-system years ago was because there's no way of determining who's actually the best, other than a general "All these Pokemon are on par with each other." There are so many factors that go into a battle - positioning, how hard one hits, type-effectiveness, moveset, experience, etc. No matter who wins though, the loser is getting smashed if up against another of GPICSS or would probably lose (at best draw) to the likes of Krookodile, Swellow, Bulbasaur, Gliscor, etc.

Elder statesman...Give me a break.

None of these do damage because they aren't effective moves.

Umm...because water shuriken is shown to be OP? I don't even have to rattle off some of its accomplishments. Anyone who says that Ash-Greninja's signature and most OP move that did so much would lose a battle against a Flamethrower is DEFINETLY not an elder statesman an is totally a Charisexual. If the two moves met in the middle WS would definitely surpass Flamethrower.

Comparing DC to DT is losing even more of your credibility.

Yup it would have been useful. I don't see Charizard being Ash's ace in a league and carrying him to the final huh? All I see is a Charizard who took a nap when he was battling.

Strong enough it can take out Alain's Charizard X WITHOUT a Mega. Cause he ain't no wuss and has a Mega form as a crutch

Another hilarious person, MCX is the non elite, champion, legend Pokemon god.

 

[Ash-Pikachu]

Well the whole making Alain's Charizard kneel thing while Peakachu was in a weakened state means that Peakachu could have battled the former competitively (ergo was on par with). MC X is decisively above (regular) E4 Mega lvl so base Charizard should be decisively above regular E4 Ace lvl putting him on the lvl of Flint's Infernape and Caitlin's Gothitelle and Peakachu follows likewise. Of course Peakachu could just as easily be rated at regular E4 Ace lvl though I'm just choosing the optimistic route.

People generally ignore MCX's power even though holistically speaking, Alain's Charizard strength has consistently been Elite 4 Mega level at least.

For instance, against Siebold, Siebold affirmed that he had never faced someone with such monstrous power in a long time and revered Alain's Charizard for giving him such a good fight with a type disadvantage despite losing. Soon after, we witness MCX standing firm against Steven even if he was outclassed with a type advantage and then continued to defeat Malva after managing to garner praise from Siebold who held a decisive advantage. I'm honestly baffled as to why people would dismiss these performances altogether when they're indicative of the direction the writers wanted MCX to go with MCX being a predominant opponent even among the Elites.

The only contentious claims I've heard was, "Siebold wouldn't need Mega Evolution to defeat MCX" and "Malva was taunting Alain," even though these statements aren't definitive and the latter is especially equivocal.

Surely by that logic we can say base Greninja could have battled competitively with base Charizard as well based on their first exchange? (Pikachu was more tired but on the other hand, Greninja didn't get hit so it should at least grant him at least regular E4 ace status?)

Charizard was somewhat weakened and was perniciously influenced by the Rain Dance. I wouldn't compare the two performances regardless because the writers specifically accentuated Pikachu's feats by giving us an extreme close-up of Charizard kneeling. In the writer's eyes, Pikachu was legitimately powerful enough to accomplish this while Greninja isn't for aforementioned reasons.

 

[Genaller]

Surely by that logic we can say base Greninja could have battled competitively with base Charizard as well based on their first exchange? (Pikachu was more tired but on the other hand, Greninja didn't get hit so it should at least grant him at least regular E4 ace status?)

Like you said Pikachu was in a weakened state and Greninja wasn't. Also the problem is precisely that we only saw 1 clash sequence whereas with Peakachu we saw other sequences like blocking Flamethrower with sand and temporarily matching Dragon Claw with Iron Tail that were indicative of Peakachu being on par with Alain's Charizard. Greninja in base was equal to Sawyer's base Sceptile since their multiple clashes ended in perfect stalemate and also A-G is above Mega Sceptile meaning A-G's transformation > ME but since MC X > A-G, Charizard > Greninja. Greninja is probably E4 non-Ace lvl.

 

[RedJirachi]

As of now, I'd say it's Elite 4 level

 

[snorlax512]

Like you said Pikachu was in a weakened state and Greninja wasn't. Also the problem is precisely that we only saw 1 clash sequence whereas with Peakachu we saw other sequences like blocking Flamethrower with sand and temporarily matching Dragon Claw with Iron Tail that were indicative of Peakachu being on par with Alain's Charizard. Greninja in base was equal to Sawyer's base Sceptile since their multiple clashes ended in perfect stalemate and also A-G is above Mega Sceptile meaning A-G's transformation > ME but since MC X > A-G, Charizard > Greninja. Greninja is probably E4 non-Ace lvl.

We see multiple clash sequences between Greninja and Charizard in past battles though. Heck in the second battle he even stalemated MCX's thunder punch at one point and landed an aerial ace. Greninja got absolutely pummelled after that, hence judging Peakachu's strength based on few exchanges in a bit too vague IMO (not even taking into account Alain's Charizard's superior endurance)

Same applies to Sawyer, stalemating with base Greninja during multiple clashes does not necessarily mean they are equal. Mega-Sceptile's leaf blade also stalemated with Ash-Greninja's Cut, but in the end he still got outclassed.

Charizard was somewhat weakened and was perniciously influenced by the Rain Dance. I wouldn't compare the two performances regardless because the writers specifically accentuated Pikachu's feats by giving us an extreme close-up of Charizard kneeling. In the writer's eyes, Pikachu was legitimately powerful enough to accomplish this while Greninja isn't for aforementioned reasons.

Rain dance didn't matter, because Charizard missed and Greninja used a normal type move. I'm not too convinced by the 'close up' part, because there was nothing they could have applied a 'close up' for when Greninja landed the hit on Charizard so it's a bit unfair to compare the two.

I definitely think Peakachu's feat was better, I'm just saying if Peakachu deserves E4 high-end ace status for that, Greninja should deserve regular E4 ace status for that as well. (In my scale though they are both lower)

 

[Ash-Pikachu]

We see multiple clash sequences between Greninja and Charizard in past battles though. Heck in the second battle he even stalemated MCX's thunder punch at one point and landed an aerial ace. Greninja got absolutely pummelled after that, hence judging Peakachu's strength based on few exchanges in a bit too vague IMO (not even taking into account Alain's Charizard's superior endurance)

The issue is that during that bout, Ash-Greninja (Water Veil) rivaled Mega Charizard X and his Water Veil form invokes a smaller boost than his mastered form, so it made sense for Greninja to match Charizard's power at the time. This wasn't the case at the Kalos League where his Mastered Form was mandatory for combating Mega Charizard X instead which makes it more conceivable that Charizard was overwhelmed due to being crippled by Pikachu and the Rain Dance.

 

[Genaller]

We see multiple clash sequences between Greninja and Charizard in past battles though. Heck in the second battle he even stalemated MCX's thunder punch at one point and landed an aerial ace. Greninja got absolutely pummelled after that, hence judging Peakachu's strength based on few exchanges in a bit too vague IMO (not even taking into account Alain's Charizard's superior endurance)

Same applies to Sawyer, stalemating with base Greninja during multiple clashes does not necessarily mean they are equal. Mega-Sceptile's leaf blade also stalemated with Ash-Greninja's Cut, but in the end he still got outclassed.


Rain dance didn't matter, because Charizard missed and Greninja used a normal type move. I'm not too convinced by the 'close up' part, because there was nothing they could have applied a 'close up' for when Greninja landed the hit on Charizard so it's a bit unfair to compare the two.

I definitely think Peakachu's feat was better, I'm just saying if Peakachu deserves E4 high-end ace status for that, Greninja should deserve regular E4 ace status for that as well. (In my scale though they are both lower)

Point taken. A-G (high tier 0) > Peakachu >= Charizard >= Blaze Infernape (high tier 1) > Sceptile >= Greninja (mid tier 1) > Snorlax >= Infernape >= Krookodile (low tier 1) is how I'd rate GPICKSS relative to 1 another.

 

[Ash-Pikachu]

Rain dance didn't matter, because Charizard missed and Greninja used a normal type move. I'm not too convinced by the 'close up' part, because there was nothing they could have applied a 'close up' for when Greninja landed the hit on Charizard so it's a bit unfair to compare the two.

I definitely think Peakachu's feat was better, I'm just saying if Peakachu deserves E4 high-end ace status for that, Greninja should deserve regular E4 ace status for that as well. (In my scale though they are both lower)

I would disagree here only because the announcer kept emphasizing the presence of the Rain Dance and continued to question who would triumph after the rain dance dissipated even though we saw the result for ourselves.

They could have, but extreme close-ups are generally used for greater emphasis and the writers were simply compelled to emphasize Pikachu's performance more than Greninja. "They could have done this ..." but at the end of the day, they didn't, so what matters is what the writers wants us to see.

I'm just justifying why Alain's Charizard > Greninja, I'm not necessarily concerned with pinpointing Greninja's exact strength or his power relation with Pikachu.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Ash-Greninja- Champion Ace level=E4 mega level
Pikachu(Peakachu)- E4 ace level
Charizard- E4 non-ace level

 

[Genaller]

Ash-Greninja- Champion Ace level=E4 mega level
Pikachu(Peakachu)- E4 ace level
Charizard- E4 non-ace level

Well yeah Champion Ace and E4 Mega seem to be in the same tier. I agree with you regarding A-G and Peakachu atleast.

 

[Navin]

No, do you people worship Charizard that much? Even a " XYer " like me knows that Ash-Greninja would have taken MG down low and " might " have won but still would have probably lost.

If MG was actually trying to win, AG would have been crushed like Wikstrom's Mega Scizor.

Why are you proudly stating you are one of the half dozen XY circlejerkers lol?

Elder statesman...Give me a break. None of these do damage because they aren't effective moves.

Why though? How does Slash, Dragon Tail, or Wing Attack not do damage? If you're talking about "type-effectiveness," MCX had Flamethrower and Blast Burn, and the latter did a lot of damage.

Umm...because water shuriken is shown to be OP? I don't even have to rattle off some of its accomplishments. Anyone who says that Ash-Greninja's signature and most OP move that did so much would lose a battle against a Flamethrower is DEFINETLY not an elder statesman an is totally a Charisexual. If the two moves met in the middle WS would definitely surpass Flamethrower.

Are you seriously suggesting that Charizard would be unable to destroy regular Water Shurikens with Slash or Dragon Tail, like how Mega Sceptile or MCX destroyed them, or explode them with Flamethrower?

If you're talking about the Giant/Orange Shuriken, that's something AG only pulled out as a finishing move near the end against M-Sceptile or MCX, and not a spammable attack.

Yup it would have been useful. I don't see Charizard being Ash's ace in a league and carrying him to the final huh? All I see is a Charizard who took a nap when he was battling.

All I see is Ash-Greninja jobbing three times to the same opponent. <- See what how dumb that, and what you said, sounds.

 

[MasterTobias]

Level 5 Snivys are strong, man.

Damn its so unfair,why are Unova trainers so privileged?Why couldn't Ash's mom move to unova before ash started his journey?

 

[345ash-greninja]

If MG was actually trying to win, AG would have been crushed like Wikstrom's Mega Scizor.



Why though? How does Slash, Dragon Tail, or Wing Attack not do damage? If you're talking about "type-effectiveness," MCX had Flamethrower and Blast Burn, and the latter did a lot of damage.



Are you seriously suggesting that Charizard would be unable to destroy regular Water Shurikens with Slash or Dragon Tail, like how Mega Sceptile or MCX destroyed them, or explode them with Flamethrower?

If you're talking about the Giant/Orange Shuriken, that's something AG only pulled out as a finishing move near the end against M-Sceptile or MCX, and not a spammable attack.



All I see is Ash-Greninja jobbing three times to the same opponent. <- See what how dumb that, and what you said, sounds.

That's just your ridiculous assumption. Diantha was clearly fighting seriously later on. The last Shadow Ball was pretty much a much a full power Shadow Ball and still was overpowered by Water Shuriken and send Mega Gardevoir sprawling through the ground. Just saying.

 

[Navin]

That's just your ridiculous assumption. Just saying.

Replace M-Scizor with A-G. Just saying.

[IMG300]http://pa1.narvii.com/5859/72d596e5ddd7935699667e863385d7f6464eced2_hq.gif[/IMG300]


Lemme guess: "This is a ridiculous assumption and pathetic excuse and A-G would have dodged or blocked that."

 

[345ash-greninja]

Replace M-Scizor with A-G. Just saying.

[IMG300]http://pa1.narvii.com/5859/72d596e5ddd7935699667e863385d7f6464eced2_hq.gif[/IMG300]


Lemme guess: "This is a ridiculous assumption and pathetic excuse and A-G would have dodged or blocked that."

Ash-Greninja overpowered the full-power Shadow Ball at the end with Water Shuriken. It is must faster than Mega Scizor, one of the fastest Pokemon we have seen in the anime, so dodging certainly isn't impossible. It also blocked a Blast Burn from MC-X, so I can't see why blocking that move is impossible for it.

 

[Ash-Pikachu]

Replace M-Scizor with A-G. Just saying.

[IMG300]http://pa1.narvii.com/5859/72d596e5ddd7935699667e863385d7f6464eced2_hq.gif[/IMG300]


Lemme guess: "This is a ridiculous assumption and pathetic excuse and A-G would have dodged or blocked that."

You have no proof that he wouldn't dodge it though.

 

[Xenon Blue]

Ash's Charizard is one of Ash's strongest Pokemon for sure. It is basically the only Pokemon that got constant training from an expert while Ash was traveling without it, and the result of the training really showed. It's resume is really good, and the only blunder was vs Dusclops, and that was basically all on Ash, as well as facing an obscure Pokemon with an obscure moveset. It can honestly give the Champion's Ace Pokemon a run for it's money if we assume it continued to train and improve after BF.

 

[Darthlord7]

Charizard doesn't have any comparable feats to sweeping an entire league up to the finals though, so while he wasn't used to his full potential it's probably a bit of a stretch to say Ash's Charizard is quite a bit better than Alain's base Charizard (He would have to be if Charizard is able to put up a decent fight against his mega evolution)

Well,Ash-Greninja didn't sweep an entire league but managed to give a good fight against MC-X.
In Charizard's case,if we are talking about Charizard during Johto-Hoenn I doubt it could take on Alain's Charizard in his base form.I could even dare to say it would have been OHKO just like Trevor's MC-Y.But after it completed his training I think he can defeat Alain's Charizard in his base form.But against an unscratched MC-X I don't see how he can win without a megastone.The only thing he could do is to manage to deal massive damage just like Drake's Dragonite and Harrison's Blaziken since it always fights fiercely but still losing in the process.

 

[snorlax512]

Well,Ash-Greninja didn't sweep an entire league but managed to give a good fight against MC-X.
In Charizard's case,if we are talking about Charizard during Johto-Hoenn I doubt it could take on Alain's Charizard in his base form.I could even dare to say it would have been OHKO just like Trevor's MC-Y.But after it completed his training I think he can defeat Alain's Charizard in his base form.But against an unscratched MC-X I don't see how he can win without a megastone.The only thing he could do is to manage to deal massive damage just like Drake's Dragonite and Harrison's Blaziken since it always fights fiercely but still losing in the process.

Fair enough. I personally think Ash's Charizard is probably around the same level as Alain's base Charizard so he would get beaten low-mid difficulty by his mega form, but Charizard was never used to it's full potential in BW so no one really knows how strong it is.

 

[Darthlord7]

Fair enough. I personally think Ash's Charizard is probably around the same level as Alain's base Charizard so he would get beaten low-mid difficulty by his mega form, but Charizard was never used to it's full potential in BW so no one really knows how strong it is.

THIS!We don't know how strong he is after his training yet you have XYZ's fanboys knowing everything without concrete evidence about that matter.