How strong is Prof. Kukui?

[AJ97]

There is no godo way to compare feats of characters across different series especially when the power scaling is so iffy in pokemon

Professor kukui is strong. Strongest in Alola? Most likely yes. How does that compare to other regions? No clue. There is no objective way to evaluate that. I would say whatever was his last pokemon would definetly not be as strong as tapu koko. So there is that. Yes his incineroar is strong, but how strong? It lost to ash's torracat. So personally i dont think its champion level. I would put anime kukui as a high tier 8th Gym leader( say a little weaker than raihan imo) to lower tier elite 4 member, on average to compare with other regions.

Now coming to alain. That dude, like it or not was a beast. By the end of XYZ we see him hold his own against 50 percent zygarde. Beat an E4's ace Mega Pokemon after 9 consecutive battles with other MEs. This is arguably the greatest feat of any character on this anime. He collected gym badges in no time. His strength feats are ridiculous. So yeah, ash nearly beating alain still feels like a bigger achievment than ash besting gladion.

Raihan is not the same as an "8th Gym Leader".
A Strong"8th Gym Leader" would be someone like Wolfric, Clair or Pre-Journey's Volkner.
Raihan is in the same tier as Regional Champions. He was in the Master class holding his own against other Regional Champions in battle and the Ultra Class includes Elite Four members who Raihan was ranked above.

The rest I agree with you.

 

[DayQuil95]

1. Irrelevant, he lost.

2. Ash's Pikachu was never Elite four-tier to begin with (ESPECIALLY WHEN HE FOUGHT VIOLA). Even as of now, Pikachu has not yet accomplished an E4 tier feat. One can assume that now with Ash's Journey's team getting scaled, it would make sense for Pikachu to also be scaled accordingly. Plus, using any Pikachu battle for reference will always be a bad example because Pikachu is probably the most inconsistent Pokemon on Ash's team. Did you forget PIkachu beating Brandon and then tying against Paul's Elekid? Trip battle? List goes on.

3. Your point?

Kiawe lost to brock. In other words, the anime portrayed Kiawe as a strong trainer, but no where close to E4/Regional Champion. The E4 and Regional Champion were always shown to be a league of their own and always outclassed Ash by a significant margin, no matter how experienced Ash was. It was only in Kalos where Ash Greninja began displaying a level of power that somewhat brought Ash on even footing with an Elite four-member (And that was with just 1 of his Pokemon).

Claiming Kukui was as strong as a champion or Elite four etc is all just baseless assumptions being made to hype Ash's accomplishments in Alola. Kukui's ace lost against Ash's torracat. Now are we also going to argue Ash's torracat is much stronger than Ash's Charizard and Infernape (Because, even those 2 aces of Ash were nowhere close to Elite four/Regional Champion tier, to begin with.)

Kukui was a powerful trainer like Paul. No pushover, someone relatively powerful with a strong balanced team. Calling him Elite Four/ Regional Champion when he has displayed no feat remotely close to this, is just plain ridiculous.

Note: (Ash's pokemon don't necessarily scale in strength based on experience. They scale based on how strong Ash is based on the plot. Now currently in Journey's we have established Ash as Regional Champion tier. So all of his team will be scaled accordingly and if any opponent puts up an even fight against him, we can assume they are E4/Regional Champion tier themselves). So unless Kukui makes an appearance again and puts up an even fight against Ash now, we CANNOT call Kukui E4/Regional Champion tier.

1. Not irrelevant since it shows he was still close to beating Brock.

2. That's semantics, the list goes on and on. You could literally use any battle from the character's Pokemon in like Ep 50 and then scale the opponent according to another battle of the opponent 60 episodes later. You get the point here, and whether or not Pikachu is or was Elite Four is completely irrelevant to the point being made.

3. Are you reading what I'm saying or just arguing for the sake of not wanting to be wrong in any point you make? I specifically stated that I don't believe Kiawe is Elite Four nor would defend it, just that the notion of using a battle from Episode 43 to justify the scaling of a clearly improved trainer by the endgame of a series is ridiculous, when there are examples of Pokémon improving immensely without even being capable of evolve in a similar manner, such as Ash's Hawlucha, whether or not they're Elite Four is irrelevant, since that's just basing your arguments off of a semantic that shouldn't matter in the point being made to a relevant extent at all.

Besides, I don't see much point in addressing Kukui here when I never mentioned his name in my argument, I was arguing about a small point from one of your arguments, whether or not Kukui is champion, elite four, or gym leader is not only impossible to know in the long run, as is irrelevant to the point I'm making here.

 

[Afrodisiac]

Well, he's not in the masters 8 so..

 

[k6666]

Well, he's not in the masters 8 so..

He doesn’t even participate in it so..
For me in anime his is E4 LV stronger than Drasna At Least if we see the feat

 

[Afrodisiac]

He doesn’t even participate in it so..

Maybe he's not even that strong so..

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Claiming Ash’s Pikachu isn’t E4 is the biggest joke ever lmao when Pikachu is clearly Champion tier

 

[AJ97]

1. Not irrelevant since it shows he was still close to beating Brock.

2. That's semantics, the list goes on and on. You could literally use any battle from the character's Pokemon in like Ep 50 and then scale the opponent according to another battle of the opponent 60 episodes later. You get the point here, and whether or not Pikachu is or was Elite Four is completely irrelevant to the point being made.

3. Are you reading what I'm saying or just arguing for the sake of not wanting to be wrong in any point you make? I specifically stated that I don't believe Kiawe is Elite Four nor would defend it, just that the notion of using a battle from Episode 43 to justify the scaling of a clearly improved trainer by the endgame of a series is ridiculous, when there are examples of Pokémon improving immensely without even being capable of evolve in a similar manner, such as Ash's Hawlucha, whether or not they're Elite Four is irrelevant, since that's just basing your arguments off of a semantic that shouldn't matter in the point being made to a relevant extent at all.

Besides, I don't see much point in addressing Kukui here when I never mentioned his name in my argument, I was arguing about a small point from one of your arguments, whether or not Kukui is champion, elite four, or gym leader is not only impossible to know in the long run, as is irrelevant to the point I'm making here.

What exactly is even the point you're making?

1. I definitely agree that he was close to beating Brock. But that doesn't mean anything lol. The point here is that Kiawe is someone who scaled relative to someone like Brock.

2. Don't understand what you mean.

3. Again, Pokemon's strength is scaled based on Plot. Actual training experience means nothing. Ash's pokemon are always scaled based on how strong the Plot wants him to be. In the previous regions, the plot never wanted Ash to be close to Elite four tier, so even his best Pokemon were never scaled upwards to that level. However, in Journey's, Ash has been scaled exponentially and we see his Journey's team accomplish feats despite having less battle appearance compared to some of his reserves. However, the very same reserves now, will be scaled relative to Ash's current skill. Like for example, as strong as Greninja was in Kalos, it was never at a level to clown an Elite four tier Pokemon (Additionally, in its base form). We saw how effortlessly Greninja stomped current Lucario (Despite Lucario now clearly being a Regional Champion/E4 Tier Pokemon).

Claiming Ash’s Pikachu isn’t E4 is the biggest joke ever lmao when Pikachu is clearly Champion tier

Ash's Pikachu currently is definitely Regional Champion tier.
As Ash is Regional Champion tier and all of his Pokemon will be scaled accordingly. Plus, Pikachu recently also beat Wallace (Which slipped my mind previously). So yes, an actual feat further proving this.

However, Pikachu was NOT PREVIOUSLY E4 nor Regional Champion tier. As Pikachu never achieved a feat equivalent to this level. Then again, Ash's Pokemon is horribly scaled and the most inconsistent Pokemon in terms of strength.
That said, Ash was never E4 nor Regional Champion tier until Journey's (With the exception of Ash Greninja).

 

[Lord Godwin]

What exactly is even the point you're making?

1. I definitely agree that he was close to beating Brock. But that doesn't mean anything lol. The point here is that Kiawe is someone who scaled relative to someone like Brock.

2. Don't understand what you mean.

3. Again, Pokemon's strength is scaled based on Plot. Actual training experience means nothing. Ash's pokemon are always scaled based on how strong the Plot wants him to be. In the previous regions, the plot never wanted Ash to be close to Elite four tier, so even his best Pokemon were never scaled upwards to that level. However, in Journey's, Ash has been scaled exponentially and we see his Journey's team accomplish feats despite having less battle appearance compared to some of his reserves. However, the very same reserves now, will be scaled relative to Ash's current skill. Like for example, as strong as Greninja was in Kalos, it was never at a level to clown an Elite four tier Pokemon (Additionally, in its base form). We saw how effortlessly Greninja stomped current Lucario (Despite Lucario now clearly being a Regional Champion/E4 Tier Pokemon).




Ash's Pikachu currently is definitely Regional Champion tier.
As Ash is Regional Champion tier and all of his Pokemon will be scaled accordingly. Plus, Pikachu recently also beat Wallace (Which slipped my mind previously). So yes, an actual feat further proving this.

However, Pikachu was NOT PREVIOUSLY E4 nor Regional Champion tier. As Pikachu never achieved a feat equivalent to this level. Then again, Ash's Pokemon is horribly scaled and the most inconsistent Pokemon in terms of strength.
That said, Ash was never E4 nor Regional Champion tier until Journey's (With the exception of Ash Greninja).

2 things:
1. About Kiawe - remember it was begging of series Kiawe and Turtanator did not have Focus blast yet at that point. I think Turtanator improved heavily by series end (up to a point it defeated Gladion's Lycanroc and fought for a while with Silvally.
2. About Ash Pikachu. In Kalos league it defeated a Tyranitar, Metagross and made Alain's base Charizard knee afterwards. By this feats I see him being on at least on the level of Malva's base Houndoom and Ash's base Greninja. Let's also remember beating Regice and Latios in the past.

 

[DayQuil95]

What exactly is even the point you're making?

1. I definitely agree that he was close to beating Brock. But that doesn't mean anything lol. The point here is that Kiawe is someone who scaled relative to someone like Brock.

2. Don't understand what you mean.

3. Again, Pokemon's strength is scaled based on Plot. Actual training experience means nothing. Ash's pokemon are always scaled based on how strong the Plot wants him to be. In the previous regions, the plot never wanted Ash to be close to Elite four tier, so even his best Pokemon were never scaled upwards to that level. However, in Journey's, Ash has been scaled exponentially and we see his Journey's team accomplish feats despite having less battle appearance compared to some of his reserves. However, the very same reserves now, will be scaled relative to Ash's current skill. Like for example, as strong as Greninja was in Kalos, it was never at a level to clown an Elite four tier Pokemon (Additionally, in its base form). We saw how effortlessly Greninja stomped current Lucario (Despite Lucario now clearly being a Regional Champion/E4 Tier Pokemon).

I think we might not be seeing each other's points too well lmao. I'm not trying to defend the levels of any trainer here based on feats or anything, nor am I going against your point of Kukui not being E4 or Champion based on feats, because even though the narrative wants to say something sometimes, feats may portray the character as on a different level.

Now what I was talking about through all of this is that it's not right to have Gladion scale to Brock because he beat Kiawe back then, simply because Kiawe has already grown immensely from EP 43 to the league battle with Gladion, his Turtonator grew stronger, learned new moves, and the narrative clearly wanted to portray that in his battle against Lycanroc and Silvally.

I'm well aware that the strength of Pokemon in the anime is based on Plot, that's a given, but that still doesn't change the point being made on Kiawe being portrayed as stronger than before by the time he fought Gladion. I'm not trying to say that Kiawe would one-shot Brock or anything because he wouldn't, but that the argument itself of using something a character did many episodes previously in the same character to scale said character relatively to another won't work well at all for most of the time.

 

[Lord Godwin]

So we are getting a Battle Royal in ep 112 which includes Kukui Fighting against Ash. As Ash current team is scaled vs E4 and soon Champions we might get some clearance how strong Kukui is.

Unless he will get the post enemy/Rival syndrome and will make him look week (see Dragonball Goku's past rivals like Yamcha, Tien, Picollo).

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

The usual last mon standing which would only mean that Kukui got stronger but not enough to scale to Ash anymore.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

College got hectic so took a break from the forums and I come back to the same arguments repeated. Considering the newly revealed alola episodes (hype) and me being a bit lost rn with the debates that were happening, I'd wait till the episodes air to counter some of the statements here
Till then I still stand by that Kukui (atleast with Tapu Koko) was easily Champion level, esp with how champions were further portrayed in JN that Kukui outclasses, and I'm tired of people saying Tapu Koko has no believable strength because "it didn't defeat MCX" while ignoring all the freaking points I made lorewise and necrozma ep wise
Tone deaf
And yes beating Kukui >>> losing to alain

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I'm not sure if you phrased this wrong, or I read it wrong, but I doubt Kukui outclasses most current Regional Champions.

I meant to say how he's showcased as in how Iris and Wallace were showcased in JN and in the narrative vs Kukui
Whether they are stronger than him or not, eh, can't really say but I don't see Kukui not being on their level

 

[Blood Red]

Considering how inconsistent 'feats of strength' are, let's just say he's at Champion level because he was that in-game. Originally, I used to think Kukui couldn't realistically be more than E4 because of how he straight-up lost to a regional team, but then Iris happened and Bea confused things even more by doing what she did to 'Champion' Pikachu.

So...yeah, let's just go by in-game status.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Considering how inconsistent 'feats of strength' are, let's just say he's at Champion level because he was that in-game. Originally, I used to think Kukui couldn't realistically be more than E4 because of how he straight-up lost to a regional team, but then Iris happened and Bea confused things even more by doing what she did to 'Champion' Pikachu.

So...yeah, let's just go by in-game status.

Honestly same
I considered Kukui as a top Elite four level but JNs put things into new perspective, I can't see Kukui as anything less than Champion level. He was easily more impressive than Wallace, Raihan and Iris were

 

[DayQuil95]

College got hectic so took a break from the forums and I come back to the same arguments repeated. Considering the newly revealed alola episodes (hype) and me being a bit lost rn with the debates that were happening, I'd wait till the episodes air to counter some of the statements here
Till then I still stand by that Kukui (atleast with Tapu Koko) was easily Champion level, esp with how champions were further portrayed in JN that Kukui outclasses, and I'm tired of people saying Tapu Koko has no believable strength because "it didn't defeat MCX" while ignoring all the freaking points I made lorewise and necrozma ep wise
Tone deaf
And yes beating Kukui >>> losing to alain

Didn't Koko also have a feat of saving Lunala, a box legendary, from Necrozma?

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Didn't Koko also have a feat of saving Lunala, a box legendary, from Necrozma?

Yeah but that was conveniently ignored alongside all the other lore points I made
But dw, they will now double back saying Necrozma has no feats lmao

 

[ImBeVillain]

Considering how inconsistent 'feats of strength' are, let's just say he's at Champion level because he was that in-game. Originally, I used to think Kukui couldn't realistically be more than E4 because of how he straight-up lost to a regional team, but then Iris happened and Bea confused things even more by doing what she did to 'Champion' Pikachu.

Friendly reminder:
Writers have always problem with Pikachu's strenght balance, for example unfamous battle vs Snivy. They had made problem even with S&M series too, in episode 4 Pikachu "accidentally" defeated almost by GRUBBIN and "pressed button on Run away" for going to Pokemon Center.

 

[DayQuil95]

Pikachu beating someone is noteworthy, but being beaten isn't. It can hit very hard, but at the end of the day, it goes down easily with enough of a beating given how much of a glass cannon it is. It is just a rat after all.

I kinda like that aspect of it, if it manages to hit something it's taking it down for sure, but is most likely going down if hit just as hard. That's probably one of my favorite things that weren't present in OS-DP, but are now, since not only is it applicable to the games, but also justifies him getting beaten to opponents it should one-shot, rather than tanking everything like before. Just compare him fighting Regice and Latios against Tapu Koko, in the formers he just tanked everything while in the latter he never got hit once.

 

[Ryker101]

Kukui’s busted especially with Koko. Cause it can give him a second z move as well. He can also improvise with his pokemon like Ash, like using venusaur’s flower

I’d say he can solo some E4 members at least