How strong is Prof. Kukui?

[Aryash Bajaj]

I don't know about his entire team but Incineroar is probably E4 level and Tapu Koko with Z move is definitely champion level.

 

[Akkipeddi]

I don't like using Koko to gauge Kukui's strength as a trainer since it's obviously not his and it was basically the conclusion to Pikachu vs Koko. I maintain that his Incineroar is probably low E4 tier cause I dont see it at the same level as something like Flint's Infernape.

I'll also stick with my claim that Ash's best achievement is the finals loss to Alain over beating Kukui (as of the end of SM) and here's why: Alain is superior to Kukui and the setting. Kukui was the post celebratory match and Ash wouldn't have lost his title even if he lost to Kukui vs the finals of KL. I get finding the Kukui battle more narratively satisfying but that is not the same as the actual feat. The closest example I can think of is that Ash vs Alain is like Spurs losing to Liverpool in the UCL final and Ash vs Kukui is Spurs winning the community shield (with Ash vs Gladion being spurs winning the FA cup which will never happen cause its Spurs).

 

[Fernsday]

Aw **** here we go again. Kukui E4-Champion range, cope and seethe lol.

 

[AJ97]

I don't know about his entire team but Incineroar is probably E4 level and Tapu Koko with Z move is definitely champion level.

So now Torracat is Elite four-tier and stronger than Infernape which was destroyed by Flint's Infernape?

You can't consider a Pokemon E4 tier just based on some arbitrary measure of strength what you consider E4 tier. The only objective way to consider a Pokemon E4 tier is if it actual beats an E4 owned Pokemon or it defeats a Pokemon that has defeated an E4 owned pokemon.
Example: Alain's Charizard -> Defeated Malva's Ace/ Ash Greninja put up an even fight against Alain's Charizard.

 

[AJ97]

I don't like using Koko to gauge Kukui's strength as a trainer since it's obviously not his and it was basically the conclusion to Pikachu vs Koko. I maintain that his Incineroar is probably low E4 tier cause I dont see it at the same level as something like Flint's Infernape.

I'll also stick with my claim that Ash's best achievement is the finals loss to Alain over beating Kukui (as of the end of SM) and here's why: Alain is superior to Kukui and the setting. Kukui was the post celebratory match and Ash wouldn't have lost his title even if he lost to Kukui vs the finals of KL. I get finding the Kukui battle more narratively satisfying but that is not the same as the actual feat. The closest example I can think of is that Ash vs Alain is like Spurs losing to Liverpool in the UCL final and Ash vs Kukui is Spurs winning the community shield (with Ash vs Gladion being spurs winning the FA cup which will never happen cause its Spurs).

There's no such thing as "Low Elite Four Tier". There is no objective basis to determine what is Low Elite Four-tier as we haven't seen enough Elite four members battling each other to determine this.
If Kukui's Infernape is Low E4 tier, that would imply Ash's Torracat is stronger than both his Charizard and Infernape based on this feat.

 

[Ragnarok4]

let's forget flint dammit, he was used to demostrar the elite 4 as gods back then. Flint is weaker than Kukui, stop overestimating my boy Flint.

 

[Lord Godwin]

let's forget flint dammit, he was used to demostrar the elite 4 as gods back then. Flint is weaker than Kukui, stop overestimating my boy Flint.

I think Flint is shown as one of the strongest E4 in the series, he faired better than all other Sinnoh E4 against Cynthia in DP arc and was even part of Master 8 for a while.

Drasna was only no 12 in PWT for comparison.

The question is how would Kukui's Incineroar fair against Aaron's Beautifly, Bertha's Hippowdon, Lucian's Bronzong, Drasna's Altaria or Noivern or Malva's M-Houndoom, Wilkstrom's M-Scizor, especially with it's Z-move. I think he looses to Siebold's M-Blastoise, though.

Maybe next week we can see how he fair against Ash Pikachu which will fight some of Champion's Pokemon soon.

 

[Ragnarok4]

I think Flint is shown as one of the strongest E4 in the series, he faired better than all other Sinnoh E4 against Cynthia in DP arc and was even part of Master 8 for a while.

Drasna was only no 12 in PWT for comparison.

The question is how would Kukui's Incineroar fair against Aaron's Beautifly, Bertha's Hippowdon, Lucian's Bronzong, Drasna's Altaria or Noivern or Malva's M-Houndoom, Wilkstrom's M-Scizor, especially with it's Z-move. I think he looses to Siebold's M-Blastoise, though.

Maybe next week we can see how he fair against Ash Pikachu which will fight some of Champion's Pokemon soon.

I think flint's Infernape can beat Kukui's Incineroar, but only if Kukui doesn't use Z-Move

If Kukui uses Z-Move, then he can defeat Infernape.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Ash’s Incineroar is stronger than both Ash’s Infernape and Ash-Greninja

 

[ShinyCharyZard]

Ash’s Incineroar is stronger than both Ash’s Infernape and Ash-Greninja

Completely baseless assumption, just another excuse to slate Greninja whilst using Infernape as a cover up..

 

[masdog]

So what exactly makes a Pokemon "Champion Tier" or "E4 Tier?" How is that determined? And how are these comparisons being made when we 1)have only 1-2 points of comparisons for most gym leaders, E4 members, and Champions and 2)these comparison points across series only intersect with Ash or maybe 1 other character (like Leon or Gary?)

 

[Xuxuba]

It's hard to attest whether he is E4 level when we didn't see him battling that many high level trainers before, other than Ash and Guzma. I guess you could say Kiawe could be considered a strong opponent too, but to me he is mid at best.

I do wonder how well he'd do against Gladion but we never saw them battling. I don't think Gladion would win, but i do think Kukui would struggle a bit, especially if he didn't have Tapu Koko helping him like in his fight against Ash.

 

[Lord Godwin]

It's hard to attest whether he is E4 level when we didn't see him battling that many high level trainers before, other than Ash and Guzma. I guess you could say Kiawe could be considered a strong opponent too, but to me he is mid at best.

I do wonder how well he'd do against Gladion but we never saw them battling. I don't think Gladion would win, but i do think Kukui would struggle a bit, especially if he didn't have Tapu Koko helping him like in his fight against Ash.

I guess Tapu Koko would fight Silvally. Or Incineroar will defeat it like with Melmetal (and Melmetal barery lost to Silvally).

It's sounds quite crazy that Ash needed both an UB and Mythical to barery win against Kukui and Tapu Koko.

Tapu Koko is probably>Naganadel and Melmetal individually but not sure if he is stronger than both combined. So I would say Incineroar would beat individually Melmetal (canon), Naganadel and Silvally. And let's remember Naganadel is not weak itself as it beat Lucario who had a clear type advantage.

So I think Kukui would win swiftly vs Gladion:
Incineroar takes Silvally
Braviary - Lycanroc (since it beat Ash's who is barery stronger than Gladion's)
Lucario (maybe together with Empoleon or Venusaur) should beat Zoroark
Empoleon or Venusaur can beat Umbreon most likely

So I would say if it 4 vs 4 (as Gladion did not show more Pokemon) Kukui can win with:
Incineroar for Silvally and maybe support with someone else
Braviary
and any 2 of Lucario, Venusaur, Empoleon for the rest

If Gladio Brings Lunala, though, I don't think even Tapu Koko would be enough.

 

[Fernsday]

Incineroar was clearly a cut above Nihilego and Marowak and straight up held its own against a Pikachu that was stated to be stronger than he was in the Alola League and was able to give pushback on its Z-Move this episode. Imagine thinking he isn’t an E4-Champ level trainer now lol, at the least he’s defs comparable to a high E4 level member like Flint

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Incineroar was clearly a cut above Nihilego and Marowak and straight up held its own against a Pikachu that was stated to be stronger than he was in the Alola League and was able to give pushback on its Z-Move this episode. Imagine thinking he isn’t an E4-Champ level trainer now lol

Yeah I was worried the battle royale episode may degrade Kukui a bit and make him fillerish but it didn't, it maintained his strength and again his Incineroar and Ash's Pikachu were shown to be equals when they clashed (and Pikachu probably won)
To those who think Kukui is below E4, they are definitely wrong
And i still stand by the fact he's Champion tier, NOT Elite 4 tier

 

[Fernsday]

Yeah I was worried the battle royale episode may degrade Kukui a bit and make him fillerish but it didn't, it maintained his strength and again his Incineroar and Ash's Pikachu were shown to be equals when they clashed (and Pikachu probably won)
To those who think Kukui is below E4, they are definitely wrong
And i still stand by the fact he's Champion tier, NOT Elite 4 tier

Cough cough* CMButch DMing and spamming my Twitter like last year. I got the receipts

 

[thedarkdragon11]

I say now he's above Marnie but below Raihan level...

 

[Fernsday]

I say now he's above Marnie but below Raihan level...

I mean Raihan was the 8th strongest trainer in the world, it’s fair to say that Kukui’s in between Raihan and arguably E4 members like Flint

 

[AJ97]

Yeah I was worried the battle royale episode may degrade Kukui a bit and make him fillerish but it didn't, it maintained his strength and again his Incineroar and Ash's Pikachu were shown to be equals when they clashed (and Pikachu probably won)
To those who think Kukui is below E4, they are definitely wrong
And i still stand by the fact he's Champion tier, NOT Elite 4 tier

Dumb point. We also see Pikachu take damage sometimes from attacks from Team rocket. Does that imply team rocket were also as strong or stronger than Ash?
The overall battle clearly implied Ash was far above Kukui.

Calling him E4 or Champion tier is headcanon at this point.

Kukui's feats definitely make him capable of reaching the Hyper Class of the Master Class. That's the best you can state.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Dumb point. We also see Pikachu take damage sometimes from attacks from Team rocket. Does that imply team rocket were also as strong or stronger than Ash?
The overall battle clearly implied Ash was far above Kukui.

Calling him E4 or Champion tier is headcanon at this point.

Kukui's feats definitely make him capable of reaching the Hyper Class of the Master Class. That's the best you can state.

There's a difference AJ in how pikachus feats are displayed in the narrative
Esp with how Ash vs Kukui was displayed today here. How does the overall battle imply Ash is far above Kukui? Now that's you making your own headcanon