How well did Game Freak expand on the world of Pokémon in Gen 2?

[WaterTypeStarter]

Gen 2 introduced many new features and expanded on the world of Gen 1. Did Game Freak do a good job on expanding the lore? Do the things introduced in Gen 2 make sense worldbuilding wise?

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I think that GF did a great job building lore and building more of a world in Gen II. It’s hard to believe that Pokémon was originally going to end after Gen II but the franchise went on because the games were a huge hit.

 

[jaden767]

They didn't expand it that much because Johto was a lot like Kanto only more olden and with more Japanese symbolism and themes. Game Freak expanded the franchise more with Hoenn in RSE than with GSC.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

They didn't expand it that much because Johto was a lot like Kanto only more olden and with more Japanese symbolism and themes. Game Freak expanded the franchise more with Hoenn in RSE than with GSC.

This. Johto is just as lacking in plot and character development as Kanto. There's a bit more lore with the legendaries, but that's it. The storyline really didn't see much of an expansion until 3rd gen.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

This. Johto is just as lacking in plot and character development as Kanto. There's a bit more lore with the legendaries, but that's it. The storyline really didn't see much of an expansion until 3rd gen.

The series was originally planned to be the last Pokémon games which is why those games aren’t fully developed.

 

[Leonhart]

Not very well from my viewpoint. A lot of Gen II species were related to Gen I species, which made Gen II in general feel like an extension of Gen I rather than a whole new generation. It doesn't help that Jouto as a region felt small and was basically the same size as Kanto: I wish Jouto had been much larger and unique, especially when it came to Pokemon diversity.

 

[Palamon]

I honestly don't think that they did a great job. Johto can't even stand alone without Kanto neighboring it. I honestly feel like Johto would have expanded on the world of Pokemon more if it were left the way it was in the Spaceworld 1997 demo. I'm not saying Pokemon should have ended in 1997, but I feel like the Johto we have now is just "on the border of Kanto", and that's it. I suppose it did expand upon Pokemon Culture, at least? The region is so tiny it needs Kanto to keep it afloat. I really wish that weren't the case. Even in HG/SS, I felt like Johto just wasn't that good as a region by itself. A lot of the Pokemon, even, are either evolutions of old ones, or baby Pokemon, too, not to mention, some Johto Pokemon can't even be found until after you go to Kanto. I know Game Freak was on crunch time, and being able to go to two regions back in 1999 was a big deal, but I still can't help but feel a lot was sacrificed in the process.

 

[Auraninja]

You know, since Generation 2 was meant to be the last generation, maybe it wasn't trying to expand the Pokemon universe in a big way.
Maybe Johto was just meant to be a mirror region adjacent to Kanto, like there was a brand new side of things.

I think we should see it in context before we point out that it didn't expand the series like future Pokemon games did.

 

[Ignition]

Main reason why I don’t think much of GSC & HGSS having Kanto as post game. The potential to expand the region and characters was huge but most of it was bland. Red being on Mt. Silver, Blue being the new Virdian Gym Leader after Giovanni was defeated, and Janine being the replacement Fuchsia City Gym Leader for Koga was pretty much it. I don’t think they started getting good at world building until Gen 4 onwards.

 

[Auraninja]

I'm going to explain this the best I can.

Let's say that there was a game that explored the world, which is referred to in latter entries as the Light World. Then let's say there is a sequel where you start of in the parallel Dark World, and you make your way to the Light World afterwards, like two sides of a coin. Then, every subsequent entry made a whole different world that was not complementary to either the Light or Dark World, a whole other coin. Now, in this series, would we go back to the second game and say that it didn't build the world that well because it didn't come up with completely separate worlds? Of course not.

Now, moving onto Pokemon GSC, they did have the problem of butchered Kanto, but HGSS fixed quite a bit of the problem (not completely), and in it's contained Kanto/Johto story, we have the continuation of Team Rocket from Kanto, to Sevii, to Johto, and the son teased in Sevii turns out to be the Gen II rival. We also find out the Blue becomes the 8th Gym Leader in Giovanni's absence, while Red went above and beyond to become the toughest trainer in the region complex. While Gen III was the first to have a non-adjacent region, what I give Gen II credit for was coming up with a way to expand upon the original world, and the only world we knew of Pokemon at the time.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

I'm going to explain this the best I can.

Let's say that there was a game that explored the world, which is referred to in latter entries as the Light World. Then let's say there is a sequel where you start of in the parallel Dark World, and you make your way to the Light World afterwards, like two sides of a coin. Then, every subsequent entry made a whole different world that was not complementary to either the Light or Dark World, a whole other coin. Now, in this series, would we go back to the second game and say that it didn't build the world that well because it didn't come up with completely separate worlds? Of course not.

Now, moving onto Pokemon GSC, they did have the problem of butchered Kanto, but HGSS fixed quite a bit of the problem (not completely), and in it's contained Kanto/Johto story, we have the continuation of Team Rocket from Kanto, to Sevii, to Johto, and the son teased in Sevii turns out to be the Gen II rival. We also find out the Blue becomes the 8th Gym Leader in Giovanni's absence, while Red went above and beyond to become the toughest trainer in the region complex. While Gen III was the first to have a non-adjacent region, what I give Gen II credit for was coming up with a way to expand upon the original world, and the only world we knew of Pokemon at the time.

I don't think anyone ever said that Johto being contiguous with Kanto was the reason why it wasn't? The main issue with Kanto and Johto is that they're barebones in terms of plot and characterization (really, they're barebones in a lot of things, especially compared to later games, but in the context of this thread, it's specifically because of the plot and characterization). Team Rocket doesn't really have much in the way of a concrete plan with overarching events like the later evil teams do, they're just doing random bad stuff all over the map with little to no connection between them and no real sense that they're building up to a climactic finale. And the characters are all really flat and one-note. They're either glorified punching bags for you to battle or generic NPCs that spout one-liners. There isn't much of a sense of Pokemon being a "world" when there's a lack of motivation behind just about everything that happens in the game.

You know, since Generation 2 was meant to be the last generation, maybe it wasn't trying to expand the Pokemon universe in a big way.
Maybe Johto was just meant to be a mirror region adjacent to Kanto, like there was a brand new side of things.

I think we should see it in context before we point out that it didn't expand the series like future Pokemon games did.

It hardly matters. Regardless of the reason why it didn't expand very much, it just didn't. Knowing the context doesn't suddenly make what they did good, it just explains why they made the decisions they did.

 

[Ignition]

Now, in this series, would we go back to the second game and say that it didn't build the world that well because it didn't come up with completely separate worlds? Of course not.

I’m confused about this. I’m not criticizing GSC/HGSS in terms of world building because it’s not a new world. I like the idea of a sequel revisiting the world of the original and seeing how much has changed. If anything, that’s the exact opposite of what I’d want. I don’t think Hoenn onwards is good because they’re not connected to Kanto like Johto is. As @Bolt the Cat said, my issue is that what’s given is very lackluster. Whether or not it was intentional, I find it to be missed potential regardless. My issue isn’t even with Johto in this situation but Kanto being rather dull.

 

[Auraninja]

My latest comment wasn't necessarily a reply to you. It was more a general reply.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

My latest comment wasn't necessarily a reply to you. It was more a general reply.

Now, in this series, would we go back to the second game and say that it didn't build the world that well because it didn't come up with completely separate worlds? Of course not.

That doesn't really sound like a general reply here, this sounds like something you would say in response to someone who claimed they didn't think Johto expanded on the world of Pokemon because it was attached at the hip to Kanto. I'm not really getting the impression that a lot of people in this thread feel that's the reason. Looking at the responses again, maybe one or two people do, but in general no, they only seem bringing it up because it shows just how similar in approach those two games are, not because it was keeping them from expanding on the world in any way. I think you're misreading the room in this thread.

I think the barebones approach to storytelling is definitely the larger factor here. A sequel can have tons of potential to expand on the world as @Ignition said, and we saw a much more polished version of this in BW2 with the characters taking new roles and having new character arcs and the events of the first game having a dramatic impact on how the world develops. In GSC, we don't really see much of a change in terms of storyline and characters. We see some old characters take new positions, primarily as Gym Leaders and Elite 4, and Team Rocket comes up with a last ditch plan to bring back Giovanni, but that's about it. The world is otherwise mainly the same. Some areas in Kanto close down for largely unrelated in-universe reasons, but otherwise it's just same old Kanto and Kanto's events and characters don't have much of an effect on Johto either. They just don't flesh out the plot and characters enough to feel like the world is legitimately evolving from RBY to GSC.

 

[Auraninja]

It was a general reply because I said it was a general reply.

Also, most people who criticized the world building of Johto in this thread mentioned Kanto in some capacity.

My whole point is that Kanto was the only Pokemon world really at the time, and Johto was basically it's mirror.

I don't deny that other Pokemon worlds did some better story telling, but that was a new precedent.
I don't blame Johto for not doing enough new things because it was only the second game thus far.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

I don't deny that other Pokemon worlds did some better story telling, but that was a new precedent.
I don't blame Johto for not doing enough new things because it was only the second game thus far.

Who said that a new precedent was needed for them to improve their stories? A bad storyline is a bad storyline, if they really wanted the game to be the last and greatest Pokemon games they should've done their best to make it as high quality as possible instead of just sticking to the conventions of the first game just because. I can cut them some slack for some things that were wrong with Johto, but mainly for limitations due to hardware and a smaller pool of Pokemon. Not so much with the stories because there was never anything stopping them from making a good story.

 

[Sαpphire]

So, I get what people might not like about Gen 2 in a world building sense. I really understand some of the criticisms and I accept them for what they are.

Personally, I think that Gen 2 did a fantastic job of expanding the world. My perspective comes from the angle of looking through the lens of what the franchise was like at the time and what the purpose of the games was - but it's also very personal and very nostalgia-driven, so take everything I say with a grain of salt and know that this isn't necessarily direct disagreement with any of the other points made so far. Just 100% my own feelings that have been been baking in the old brain-oven for 20 years (and a couple weeks). Full disclosure, Gen 2 was my first.

I feel like back then, Pokémon was more about things that didn't necessitate depth to the story than it is today - or, at least, than it was at one point, since I can't pretend games like Sword and Shield have depth. Back in the early days, before a Legendary Pokémon could be pulled from the edges of the world into the present day to create an existential threat to humanity, Pokémon was about trading, battling, and pure adventure. To that end, I don't think it was really necessary for GSC to get too deep yet with the story, because RGBY hadn't either. That's not to say growth is bad, far from it - just that as more or less direct sequels, keeping the stakes at a similar level just feels right to me. I appreciate the additional plot flourishes that HGSS add, and my second favorite games in the series are Sun and Moon because I love the story so much, so I know how much is gained by telling a good story with vibrant characters. But for the time, the original Johto story was enough, and a young imagination is powerful enough to take what Gen 2 presented and make something amazing out of it.

Beyond that, though, the color that the games added - figuratively, I mean, but also literally! - to the world of Pokémon is what keeps me hooked on Johto to this day. It's a laid-back, quiet world in Johto, and to a large extent that's because of the parts of the real world that inspired the region. At the same time, there's so much more cultural identity there and so much more meaningful lore than there was in the first generation.

I have always felt that Kanto, when it stands alone as it has in eight video games so far, is exceptionally bland. It's very monotonous and it has this vague identity that doesn't really commit to being fully present. There's some stuff to like there, particularly in small details like Lavender Town and the Cinnabar Mansion, but those aren't central to the Kanto experience; they're more like side attractions. I don't feel that Kanto actually has much of a core identity at all - it has a relatively consistent aesthetic, but that aesthetic is largely defined by a lack of defining features, a very plain standard look and feel.

To contrast that, then, with Johto shows just how much good I think Gen 2 did for the franchise in a creative sense.

In Johto, the Japanese cultural influences and the feeling that you're in a very traditional, old region are front and center in the presentation. Violet City and Sprout Tower are where this first pops up, and then it becomes a thread that follows you throughout the whole game. Immediately after, you're able to explore ancient ruins with mysterious messages (the latter exclusive to Crystal). Then, you visit a town with a man who still makes traditional apricorn-based Pokéballs, bordering a huge forest that houses an old shrine to a mythical protector Pokémon. After a brief detour to a big city, you step into Ecruteak, which comes with all of the lore and aesthetics surrounding the Tin and Burned Towers, and which evokes similar feelings as Violet City did earlier in the adventure, but deeper. There's even more that I could cover with other areas, but the last one to highlight would be the Dragon's Den and the Sages there. I think that beyond all that, the sense of exploration was much more fun, too - I spent plenty of time wandering deep into Ilex Forest, meandering around the little forest labyrinth at the Lake of Rage, delving deep into the cave systems that connected routes, or finding little hidden spots accessible only after you got a specific HM.

It all ties up into Johto having a very consistent and strong sense of a regional identity that felt great at the time. To me, when I first played as a kid and even today, it actually felt lived-in, compared to Kanto feeling a little devoid of spirit when I picked that up next. At the same time, the quiet sense of adventure between the towns and cities felt exciting. It felt like there was always more there to discover, to question, and to imagine. It's still my number one fictional setting ever. I love it to literally no end.

That said, I also want to mention why I totally get why people might not think it's all that! Johto is a little bit of a weird liminal space because it's tied directly to Kanto, and also comes right before the franchise made a massive leap to a wildly different setting that came with a significantly more story-driven experience, with more serious stakes and deeper characterization. Johto wouldn't catch up in terms of characters to what Gen 3 did until HGSS, seven to eight years after Ruby and Sapphire. If you look at GSC right next to RS, it's very obvious which ones changed and expanded the Pokémon world more - which ones did it better might be subjective, but even in my nostalgia-fueled state, I can see that they're not even in the same ballpark and can't be compared in a way that's too favorable to GSC. Personally I don't mind when people come at the question from this angle because I have so much deep love and nostalgia for Hoenn as well - Emerald is my #3 in my personal Pokémon rankings! When you then take into consideration that Hoenn set the standard for how much a new region should really be "new," it's easy to make the argument that what Johto did to expand the world pales in comparison. I'll defend it personally based on it doing really well for the context at the time, but people who disagree are 100% just as right about this particular question.