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How will Ash manage a win against Korrina?

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Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
I don't get how people are acting like a Pokemon evolving under adverse conditions is DEM or something new to the anime. The anime is clearly different from the games and Pokemon here don't use the usual "level up" route to evolve.
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
Are you implying that Ash uses Amie to justify his team's wins now? When has Amie even been showcased in the show and when did Ash reveal that that's his new method of winning? Is Amie really the new scapegoat for bad writing now?

The concept of Pokémon Amie arguably came from the anime and other similar "friendship and love conquer all" type of thing.

In the entire series, both game and anime, the bonds between Pokémon and Trainer are what give them true strength compared to pure power, selfishness, etc. It gives them the passion and willpower when things really matter. This isn't complicated, isn't the first time it happened, and isn't the last time it will.


I don't get how people are acting like a Pokemon evolving under adverse conditions is DEM or something new to the anime. The anime is clearly different from the games and Pokemon here don't use the usual "level up" route to evolve.
In episode 9 of the anime levels were mentioned and again in a recent XY episode. Therefore all game mechanics have to be literally the same, not a sort of metaphor for experience like other similar situations like athletes and fighters(I'm kidding)
 
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nameman

Well-Known Member
Are you implying that Ash uses Amie to justify his team's wins now? When has Amie even been showcased in the show and when did Ash reveal that that's his new method of winning? Is Amie really the new scapegoat for bad writing now?

It's the idea of it. Form strong bond with Pokemon combined with Pokemon's desire to prove itself. That is a winning combination in the anime universe. Others have pretty much stated why this is nowhere near as terrible as some think it is, so I'm not going to write it out again. All I will say is that this isn't completely DEM, at least not in the context of the unique situation that exists this series. If you want to call something actually DEM, that would be learning Flame Charge.
 

1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
I must be blind.

[IMG139]https://38.media.tumblr.com/52cb47aee8f99bcf7cdade89d676bd51/tumblr_n9ehcsdt8o1rsrk2xo1_500.png[/img139]
[IMG139]https://38.media.tumblr.com/e01e471a40bedc108b18f2400d620f1a/tumblr_n9ehcsdt8o1rsrk2xo2_500.png[/img139]

How does Talonflame go from destroying Hawlucha in a few moves to getting outclassed by Fletchling and realistically Fletchling should have lost given it's undertrained. It shouldn't have even lasted those attacks.

There's nothing wrong with pre-evos winning, Oshawott's win over Dewott was legit, Piplup's victory over Prinplup, Buizel's win over Floatzel wasn't too bad. This was just forced.

Had this been any other character it would have been called out. It wasn't even a realistic evolution, I can accept a battle evolution if it's at least well written.

You must be because according to you, if Brave Bird hits, it must show the recoil damage. Since no recoil damage was shown, then I guess he didn't actually hit.
 

Blue Saturday

Violet Prince❤️
Are you implying that Ash uses Amie to justify his team's wins now? When has Amie even been showcased in the show and when did Ash reveal that that's his new method of winning? Is Amie really the new scapegoat for bad writing now?
People are using Pokemon amie to justify Ash's bad wins now. Whoop.


You must be because according to you, if Brave Bird hits, it must show the recoil damage. Since no recoil damage was shown, then I guess he didn't actually hit.
But Fletchling got hit so you're incorrect.

Well tbf Fraokie /did/ have a lot of trainers before Ash so I dont think you can really assume it's a beginner, if anything it make the fact that Fletchling was able to hold his own agaisnt him for so long just as impressive (on top of knowing Steal Wing, which last time I checked wasnt a standard, low level move :/)
Dawn's Buneary knew Ice Beam despite being pretty weak and Bounce.
Hawlucha was at an obvious disadvantage due to the fact that it can't fly and therefore had a much harder time landing a hit on Talonflame, and he sure as hell didnt take "less hits", irc
I don't remember that being an issue in the episode, Hawlucha seemed right at home.
Fletchling only took ONE fire blast before evolving so im not sure where you got that from. Fletchling used Peck and then got him with three back-to-back Flame Charges, that seems to be more then sufficent damage to him.
And Brave Bird and Steel Wing. And only one Flame Charge made contact so no.

Again I have to state how we saw that Fletchling was watching Talonflame and reading it's movements, which IS a fair way to give Fletchling the advantage in battle, he knew what Talonflame would bring to the battle but not he other way round, and that way Talonflame had a hard time keep track of the small/fast Fletchling who was constantly keeping him on his toes with quick dodges and double team and the like. The fact that it evolved was due to it's own drive to succeed (again, something we saw beforehand with its anger towards Talonflame's snuffing and the encouragement from Bonnie and the other poekmon). All of this was set up fine, it's not like it all came out of thin air at once.
So are you saying Axew could trash Drayden's Haxorus by watching its movements? Are you saying I should be able to out due a more experience pro-football player or martial artist despite me not having the amount of experience they do or close to that because I can watch their movements and my smaller form?


Guess this is yet another case of agreeing to disagree since I thought it was basically the complete opposite of that, probably because im personally a lot more lenient on what is actually considered "DEM" on a show like this :/. There was plenty of foreshadowing and buildup to pull it off competently imo
I'm just going by the definition here. If it wasn't a DEM I wouldn't be using the term. Dawn's win over Ursula at the GF might have been forced but it wasn't a DEM.

Except like I said, Fletchling's willpower and determination was shown very clearly throughout the episode, this isnt just a throwaway excuse for Fletchling's evolution when it's the entire basis of the episode.
I guess Axew's willpower and determination to fight for Iris and Pokemon-amie love justifies it pulling an Outrage save? What about May's Eevee VS. Marshtomp? Pokemon-amie, right? Skitty taking a million Focus Punches? Pokemon-amie?
 
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1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
But Fletchling got hit so you're incorrect.


Dawn's Buneary knew Ice Beam despite being pretty weak and Bounce.
I don't remember that being an issue in the episode, Hawlucha seemed right at home.
And Brave Bird and Steel Wing. And only one Flame Charge made contact so no.

So are you saying Axew could trash Drayden's Haxorus by watching its movements? Are you saying I should be able to out due a more experience pro-football player or martial artist despite me not having the amount of experience they do or close to that because I can watch their movements and my smaller form?


I'm just going by the definition here. If it wasn't a DEM I wouldn't be using the term. Dawn's win over Ursula at the GF might have been forced but it wasn't a DEM.

I guess Axew's willpower and determination to fight for Iris and Pokemon-amie love justifies it pulling an Outrage?

Hey you're the one who went on and on about how Brave Bird doesn't actually take any energy unless they specifically show it connecting and the recoil afterwards.

You keep saying how Brave Bird never actually hit anyone and then you bring up it hitting Fletchling(barely from the looks of it).
 

Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
I don't get how people are acting like a Pokemon evolving under adverse conditions is DEM or something new to the anime. The anime is clearly different from the games and Pokemon here don't use the usual "level up" route to evolve.

To be frank, I don't think any of Ash's Pokemon are likely to evolve against Korrina during the Gym battle, so why is Fletchling's evolution comparable to his possible win here anyway?

It's the idea of it. Form strong bond with Pokemon combined with Pokemon's desire to prove itself. That is a winning combination in the anime universe. Others have pretty much stated why this is nowhere near as terrible as some think it is, so I'm not going to write it out again. All I will say is that this isn't completely DEM, at least not in the context of the unique situation that exists this series. If you want to call something actually DEM, that would be learning Flame Charge.

I'm asking literally, when did Ash state that he's using Amie? It was stated as a fact a few posts back, so I want actual confirmation (i.e. facts) in return.

ITT: Where are the receipts?
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
To be frank, I don't think any of Ash's Pokemon are likely to evolve against Korrina during the Gym battle, so why is Fletchling's evolution comparable to his possible win here anyway?
99.9% sure no evolution will happen there either. It was more in response to the Fletchinder DEM debates that are still going on.
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
Funny how we're comparing Axew and Fletchling now. Seriously, there's a huge difference between Iris/Axew's + Ash/Fletchling's handling and Axew VS Golett and Fletchling VS Talonflame.

First thing I wasn't aware a Dragon type(which have been stated OVER AND OVER to be tough to raise) is the same as a common regional bird. Second, I didn't know Golett had AT LEAST two prior battles, got captured by Team Rocket, and was completely overwhelmed by Iris and Axew's strategy. Plus Fletchling actually had proper battles and could actually battle before this match


You're really reaching to justify Fletchinder's victory. Can't tell if you're serious or not.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=hypocrisy
 
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nameman

Well-Known Member
To be frank, I don't think any of Ash's Pokemon are likely to evolve against Korrina during the Gym battle, so why is Fletchling's evolution comparable to his possible win here anyway? Aside from the DEM aspect obviously.



I'm asking literally, when did Ash state that he's using Amie? It was stated as a fact a few posts back, so I want actual confirmation (i.e. factual information) in return.

ITT: Where are the receipts?

The truth is Bonnie used Amie this episode as she has been the entire series thus far. The use of Amie advertisement has been more subtle than usual as the concept's always existed in the Anime. We have the Pokepuffs that Serena makes and Bonnie's penchant for taking care of Pokemon, Dedenne more specifically. Amie is the same thing as playing with and feeding your pet if you have one. It doesn't have to be directly stated to be effective.
 

Blue Saturday

Violet Prince❤️
Funny how we're comparing Axew and Fletchling now. Seriously, there's a huge difference between Iris/Axew's + Ash/Fletchling's handling and Axew VS Golett and Fletchling VS Talonflame.

First thing I wasn't aware a Dragon type(which have been stated OVER AND OVER to be tough to raise) is the same as a common regional bird. Second, I didn't know Golett had AT LEAST two prior battles, got captured by Team Rocket, and was completely overwhelmed by Iris and Axew's strategy. Plus Fletchling actually had proper battles and could actually battle before this match
It doesn't really matter. I use a healthier amount of other Pokemon as examples too. As for Fletchling, it didn't battle much in XY thus far or was shown to be that great a battler. Definitely below Pikachu and surely below Froakie and Hawlucha, at least until the plot required it to be stronger. What about Skitty vs. Dusclop? Explain that survival of a lot of moves from a relatively underused Pokemon. Fletchling should have gotten creamed like Buneary did against Glameow.
 

JD

Well-Known Member
Jeez..this Fletchling DEM thing is still going on? Gosh I'm afraid what it's going to be like if Pikachu beats Mega Lucario.
 

1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
You're really reaching to justify Fletchinder's victory. Can't tell if you're serious or not.

I'm being serious. If that Brave Bird was soooo powerful, it would of one shotted Fletchling which is what I'm sure you were expecting.

You are really reaching in trying to call this battle DEM ********. Multiple people now have tried to explain your points and why they aren't right and you've ignored most of with the didn't show it didn't happen excuse.

Also can we please stop overhyping Talonflame's strength?? Seriously you guys act like it's Cynthia's pokemon or something. Newsflash some random trainers Talonflame getting beat is not the end of the world.

Seriously I'm pretty sure Pikachu could of beat Talonflame with one arm tied behind his back.
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
People are using Pokemon amie to justify Ash's bad wins now. Whoop.
1 person =/= people.
Dawn's Buneary knew Ice Beam despite being pretty weak and Bounce.
Dawn's Buneary wasn't stated to have had multiple trainers beforehand and leave them because she thought they weren't at the level required to train her. Ash literally wanted to catch Fletchling because of how strong it was.
I don't remember that being an issue in the episode, Hawlucha seemed right at home.
Which is why Hawlucha kept getting on the cliff ledges to land and then jump again to ride the currents? A glider will struggle in a Sky Battle
And Brave Bird and Steel Wing. And only one Flame Charge made contact so no.
Fletchinder hit it with Flame Charge twice, one of which it went through part of the cliff to do it.
So are you saying Axew could trash Drayden's Haxorus by watching its movements? Are you saying I should be able to out due a more experience pro-football player or martial artist despite me not having the amount of experience they do or close to that because I can watch their movements and my smaller form?
That's a strawman argument. And yes a rookie football player can out due a mopre experienced football player and yes lower belters have been known to defeat higher belters. My cousin who's a blue belt beat a black belt actually.
I'm just going by the definition here. If it wasn't a DEM I wouldn't be using the term. Dawn's win over Ursula at the GF might have been forced but it wasn't a DEM.
I can literally justify anything as a DEM if I wanted to use it they way you're using it now.
I guess Axew's willpower and determination to fight for Iris and Pokemon-amie love justifies it pulling an Outrage save? What about May's Eevee VS. Marshtomp? Pokemon-amie, right? Skitty taking a million Focus Punches? Pokemon-amie?
Again only 1 guy brought up the Amie. Not even close or relevant to the main argument people are making here.
 

TheFonz

Pokemon Semi-Master
It doesn't really matter. I use a healthier amount of other Pokemon as examples too. As for Fletchling, it didn't battle much in XY thus far or was shown to be that great a battler. Definitely below Pikachu and surely below Froakie and Hawlucha, at least until the plot required it to be stronger. What about Skitty vs. Dusclop? Explain that survival of a lot of moves from a relatively underused Pokemon. Fletchling should have gotten creamed like Buneary did against Glameow.

Why does naming other random battles with questionable endings make sense to you? Would you like me to go step by step comparing each episode and battle to show that one is an apple and the other is an orange?
 

Lord Trollbias

Y'all Salty Bishes
I'm being serious. If that Brave Bird was soooo powerful, it would of one shotted Fletchling which is what I'm sure you were expecting.

You are really reaching in trying to call this battle DEM ********. Multiple people now have tried to explain your points and why they aren't right and you've ignored most of with the didn't show it didn't happen excuse.

Also can we please stop overhyping Talonflame's strength?? Seriously you guys act like it's Cynthia's pokemon or something. Newsflash some random trainers Talonflame getting beat is not the end of the world.

Seriously I'm pretty sure Pikachu could of beat Talonflame with one arm tied behind his back.
Might I just add that said Talonflame couldn't OHKO a Skarmory with Fire Blast (and from the fact that Nami and Talonflame were flying towards the Skarmory after said Talonflame hit it with Fire Blast a second time I'd say it couldn't THKO it either). Seems to me like Talonflame might not be as powerful as it's being made out to be.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Dawn's Buneary knew Ice Beam despite being pretty weak and Bounce.
Fine ill give you that one

I don't remember that being an issue in the episode, Hawlucha seemed right at home.
The fact that Hawlucha had to keep jumping after him and couldnt make contact at least once says otherwise.

And Brave Bird and Steel Wing. And only one Flame Charge made contact so no.
Two actually, one was a part of the cliff.

So are you saying Axew could trash Drayden's Haxorus by watching its movements? Are you saying I should be able to out due a more experience pro-football player or martial artist despite me not having the amount of experience they do or close to that because I can watch their movements and my smaller form?
You forgot the part where during the match you suddenly evolved and became 5 times more experienced and was able to stand up to your opponent, oh wait that never happened because realistic comparisons like that don't work. Also the fact that you're comparing Iris newly hatched Axew to Drayden's Haxxorous and THEN putting it on the same level as Flechling vs Talonflame is head tilting in how much of a strawman that is.

I guess Axew's willpower and determination to fight for Iris and Pokemon-amie love justifies it pulling an Outrage save? What about May's Eevee VS. Marshtomp? Pokemon-amie, right? Skitty taking a million Focus Punches? Pokemon-amie?

Dude im not even trying to argue for Amie, i wasnt even talking about it. What im trying to say is that Fletching evolving after fighting hard agaisnt Talonflame isnt a DEM for this show like at all, it's not THAT much a of a reach when you consider all the foreshadowing it got during the episode, evenrything felt like it led up to it, and Fletching wasnt kicking Talonflame's *** instantly despite still doing okay before evolving like with Axew and Outrage
 
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Lorde

Let's go to the beach, each.
99.9% sure no evolution will happen there either. It was more in response to the Fletchinder DEM debates that are still going on.

My mistake then. I thought an evolution was speculated to happen here, which I found odd considering the lack of spoilers about that thus far. Tbh, evolution mid-battle doesn't bother me; Pokemon tanking attacks from a superior battler does though, hence why Pikachu's possible win against M-Lucario here will be bad writing imo, even if it's happened before.
 

nameman

Well-Known Member
1 person =/= people.

Dawn's Buneary wasn't stated to have had multiple trainers beforehand and leave them because she thought they weren't at the level required to train her. Ash literally wanted to catch Fletchling because of how strong it was.

Which is why Hawlucha kept getting on the cliff ledges to land and then jump again to ride the currents? A glider will struggle in a Sky Battle

Fletchinder hit it with Flame Charge twice, one of which it went through part of the cliff to do it.

That's a strawman argument. And yes a rookie football player can out due a mopre experienced football player and yes lower belters have been known to defeat higher belters. My cousin who's a blue belt beat a black belt actually.

I can literally justify anything as a DEM if I wanted to use it they way you're using it now.

Again only 1 guy brought up the Amie. Not even close or relevant to the main argument people are making here.

Honestly, it should be brought up as it is a new feature in Generation 6 that can't simply be featured in one episode all that easily. It also allows Pokemon to do things in the games that could be done in the Anime before this Gen. This kind of thing has been done so many times (a prominent example is Sceptile defeating Tobias' Darkrai after waking himself up for Ash) that using that as an excuse for bad writing is kind of meh. The same series also showed us that evolution isn't an automatic win with Ash's Monferno evolving only to lose. The only reason this is being called DEM is because Ash won, though one could argue that learning Flame Charge was a rather convenient way to get over.
 
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