How will Ash manage a win against Korrina?

[Blue Saturday]

The fact that Hawlucha had to keep jumping after him and couldnt make contact at least once says otherwise.

That didn't seem to ever inhibit Hawlucha, just showing off an aspect of the Pokemon. Since it would be unrealistic for it to stay in the air for five straight minutes and the Pokemon is based on a wrestler, who are known for majestic jumping and such.

Two actually, one was a part of the cliff.

We've seen Pokemon crash through things several times. Only time where I remember it adding any wear and tear is when Paul's Magmortar made Rock Tomb pillars and Pikachu lost steam with having to blast through each with Volt Tackle.

You forgot the part where during the match you suddenly evolved and became 5 times more experienced and was able to stand up to your opponent, oh wait that never happened because realistic comparisons like that don't work. Also the fact that you're comparing Iris newly hatched Axew to Drayden's Haxxorous and THEN putting it on the same level as Flechling vs Talonflame is head tilting in how much of a strawman that is.

Nami was portrayed as a seasoned Sky Battler and Drayden is a seasoned trainer, would you have a problem with Axew becoming ten times stronger, Drayden becoming ten times stupider and weaker, Drayden defeating Dragonite, Iris doing some Pokemon-amie magic, Axew evading Haxorus's moves getting smacked by Hyper Beam and Giga Impact, taking a Hyper Beam, evolving and going on to win with a brand new Dragon Dance? The comparisons works fine because neither Pokemon was trained extensively by that point in the series and had few battles. The only difference was that Axew had mastered a new move in Dragon Rage and developed as a fighter somewhat, Fletchling never overcame any personal humps up until this point. Would you swallow a win over Haxorus 40 episodes in?

 

[TheFonz]

That didn't seem to ever inhibit Hawlucha, just showing off an aspect of the Pokemon. Since it would be unrealistic for it to stay in the air for five straight minutes and the Pokemon is based on a wrestler, who are known for majestic jumping and such.


We've seen Pokemon crash through things several times. Only time where I remember it adding any wear and tear is when Paul's Magmortar made Rock Tomb pillars and Pikachu lost steam with having to blast through each with Volt Tackle.

Nami was portrayed as a seasoned Sky Battler and Drayden is a seasoned trainer, would you have a problem with Axew becoming ten times stronger, Drayden becoming ten times stupider and weaker, Drayden defeating Dragonite, Iris doing some Pokemon-amie magic, Axew evading Haxorus's moves getting smacked by Hyper Beam and Giga Impact, taking a Hyper Beam, evolving and going on to win with a brand new Dragon Dance? The comparisons works fine because neither Pokemon was trained extensively by that point in the series and had few battles. The only difference was that Axew had mastered a new move in Dragon Rage and developed as a fighter somewhat, Fletchling never overcame any personal humps up until this point. Would you swallow a win over Haxorus 40 episodes in?

First, Hawlucha couldn't even keep up with Talonflame or get an opportunity to even be able to hit it.

Refer to my previous post about Axew. HUGE difference alone in what I said before and I can add many, many more things to disprove the argument. I can if you really want me to, but come on you should have more common sense than that

 

[Void Ventus]

Fletchling evolves, and makes the win.

 

[Blue Saturday]

Fletchling evolves, and makes the win.

Fletchinder won't likely be evolving so soon against Korrina and winning since Pikachu is in the final match-up.

 

[Lorde]

Fletchling evolves, and makes the win.

Fletchling already evolved. In fact, given his recent moment of victory, I really think Fletchinder should lay low during this Gym battle.

 

[Soniman]

Fletchling already evolved. In fact, given his recent moment of victory, I really think Fletchinder should lay low during this Gym battle.

It would be a grevious mistake to not use Flechinder at all during the next Gym considering the huge type advantage and the fact that it can actually be used.

 

[Janovy]

It would be a grevious mistake to not use Flechinder at all during the next Gym considering the huge type advantage and the fact that it can actually be used.

Yes! Fletchinder is a beast! Flame Charge would especially be of great advantage. I mean, speed + type advantage?

 

[FuzzyBlueElg]

It would be a grevious mistake to not use Flechinder at all during the next Gym considering the huge type advantage and the fact that it can actually be used.

To be fair it wouldn't be the first time ash has ignored type, or even recently evolved Pokemon.

He didn't use tranquil vs burgh for example.

He probably thinks Hawlucha would be good because its both a fighter & has moves strong against fighters (if it does indeed learn wing attack)

And maybe he's planning on a strategy involving frubbles & having Pikachu as his ace.

So if its a 3v3 there's no room for fletch

 

[ShinyCharyZard]

This whole stupid "DEM" business needs to stop completely. The term's never even used in the correct manner anymore, but just to slate a victory that someone's crying over because they didn't like it..

Seriously I can't even remember the last there was a "DEM"-enhanced victory.. and when the last one did occur, it probably wasn't even Ash, but another trainer whom pulled one out to defeat him, since his victories actually tend to hold strategy and combinations.. and I'm sure people have read this and decided I'm just an Ash-fanboy (which I'm far from being), or dreamt up another batch of victories that they believe to be DEM simply because "they didn't like them", but please don't waste any time listing them because no-one's interested..

Now I don't even believe this will be a 4v4, or that Fletchinder will even be included, but IF it does turn out to be the case, then I guess I wouldn't mind the following scenario:

Froakie vs Mienfoo - Froakie
Fletchinder vs Machoke - Fletchinder
Fletchinder vs Hawlucha - Hawlucha
Hawlucha vs Hawlucha - Ash's Hawlucha
Hawlucha vs Lucario - Lucario
Froakie vs Lucario - Lucario
Pikachu vs Lucario - Pikachu

That is all..

 

[FuzzyBlueElg]

This whole stupid "DEM" business needs to stop completely. The term's never even used in the correct manner anymore, but just to slate a victory that someone's crying over because they didn't like it..

Seriously I can't even remember the last there was a "DEM"-enhanced victory.. and when the last one did occur, it probably wasn't even Ash, but another trainer whom pulled one out to defeat him, since his victories actually tend to hold strategy and combinations.. and I'm sure people have read this and decided I'm just an Ash-fanboy (which I'm far from being), or dreamt up another batch of victories that they believe to be DEM simply because "they didn't like them", but please don't waste any time listing them because no-one's interested..

.

Thank you for that.

It's exactly how I feel. The term DEM has been thrown around so much its lost all meaning.

Ash coming up with a new strategy isn't DEM because he's been shown to be training and coming up with strategies before

Same with evolution/learning a new move.

A truly DEM win would be something like

Its all of Ashs Pokemon vs 3 of Korrinas.

Ash has lost Hawlucha, Froakie & fletchlinder and Korrina is down to mega lucario.

Pikachu vs mega lucario ends with pikachus defeat. And just when all seams lost ash pulls out a pokeball and calls out gengar. A Pokemon that was never shown being captured or even mentioned being under Ashs care that just happened to be the perfect counter for the scenario.

A situation like that would be DEM.

 

[Blue Saturday]

This whole stupid "DEM" business needs to stop completely.

You don't regulate discussions, so that's hardly any of your business. Your mentality is pretty much "I can't stand the way someone thinks so I want them to be shut-down." You don't try to shut people up or discussions down when you don't agree with someone, you post in good faith. There are some discussions I don't agree with but you won't see me going into the thread like a petulant child and demanding any form of talking be stopped. I'm not bothered, it's just another way to prove how any criticism thrown at Ash bothers some fans horridly to the point where they take him getting it as them being attacked on a personal level. Not surprised, he is a wish fulfilment character and self-insert. It's exactly those traits that makes the character so unloving for certain people in the first place.

The term's never even used in the correct manner anymore, but just to slate a victory that someone's crying over because they didn't like it..

I used the term correctly.

Seriously I can't even remember the last there was a "DEM"-enhanced victory.. and when the last one did occur, it probably wasn't even Ash, but another trainer whom pulled one out to defeat him, since his victories actually tend to hold strategy and combinations.. and I'm sure people have read this and decided I'm just an Ash-fanboy (which I'm far from being), or dreamt up another batch of victories that they believe to be DEM simply because "they didn't like them", but please don't waste any time listing them because no-one's interested..

If you're talking about Cameron, his wins weren't DEM. He was stupid, but he beat Ash fair and square. You might have a point regarding Riolu's evolution if Snivy's hits were enough to knock it out and evolution brought it back from the brink of defeat, I don't remember correctly. But Hydreigon, Samurott and Riolu realistically destroyed their opposition without question beforehand. Just because you can't stand seeing Ash's questionable victories being given flak is hardly grounds for you to try to quiet other people. Because fact of the matter is Fletchling was going to lose to Fire Blast, it was going and should have roasted the bird alive and given Talonflame the win. Fletchling only survived one of the strongest Fire-type moves because it evolved in a split second and yes, that was indeed a Deus Ex Machina. Sorry if that bothers you so badly, apparently.

 

[FuzzyBlueElg]

Fletchling only survived one of the strongest Fire-type moves because it evolved in a split second and yes, that was indeed a Deus Ex Machina. Sorry if that bothers you so badly, apparently.

Sorry to break it to you but that wasnt a DEM win.

Deus ex machina is where a new event, character or ability is suddenly introduced to solve a seemingly impossible situation.

It has clearly been established that evolution can occur in times of stress, like nearly being defeated by a stronger for. It's also been established that Pokemon can evolve mid battle. It's happened on Ashs favour and against him. So therefore fletchlinder a win cannot be classed as DEM

 

[Blue Saturday]

Sorry to break it to you but that wasnt a DEM win.

Deus ex machina is where a new event, character or ability is suddenly introduced to solve a seemingly impossible situation.

Fletchling's evolution was introduced to help it brave Fire Blast, so no.

It has clearly been established that evolution can occur in times of stress, like nearly being defeated by a stronger for. It's also been established that Pokemon can evolve mid battle. It's happened on Ashs favour and against him. So therefore fletchlinder a win cannot be classed as DEM

Your argument might have a leg to stand on if the evolution wasn't portrayed as the end-all be-all and gave Fletchinder and Ash the exact instruments they needed to end the battle quickly with zero struggle. That along with the DEM evolution being accompanied Fletchling barely doing much of anything thus far in XY to warrant being able to fight an opponent of that calibur, being able to fight in a Sky Battler perfectly despite never being in one before against a seasoned expert and fully-evolved Talonflame, survival of Steel Wing, Brave Bird and Fire Blast, a more than powerful collection of moves that should have put it anyway. Plot armor power-up before evolution, Talonflame power down. Talonflame not taking much damage in the first place to justify Fletchinder defeating it gave the battle more than enough elements to be considered a huge eyebrow raiser in writing.

 

[FuzzyBlueElg]

Fletchling's evolution was introduced to help it brave Fire Blast, so no.

Again evolution as a key to victory has been used multiple times. It cannot be DEM if it has been used before

Your argument might have a leg to stand on if the evolution wasn't portrayed as the end-all be-all and gave Fletchinder and Ash the exact instruments they needed to end the battle quickly with zero struggle. That along with the DEM evolution being accompanied Fletchling barely doing much of anything thus far in XY to warrant being able to fight an opponent of that calibur, being able to fight in a Sky Battler perfectly despite never being in one before against a seasoned expert and fully-evolved Talonflame, survival of Steel Wing, Brave Bird and Fire Blast, a more than powerful collection of moves that should have put it anyway. Plot armor power-up before evolution, Talonflame power down. Talonflame not taking much damage in the first place to justify Fletchinder defeating it gave the battle more than enough elements to be considered a huge eyebrow raiser in writing.

What your describing is poor writing not DEM. you can argue that the writing is poor all you want but you cannot argue that the win was DEM, since I have explained to you quite clearly what DEM is and why the win cannot be classed as such.

 

[Blue Saturday]

Again evolution as a key to victory has been used multiple times. It cannot be DEM if it has been used before

you can argue that the writing is poor all you want but you cannot argue that the win was DEM, since I have explained to you quite clearly what DEM is and why the win cannot be classed as such.

If a Pokemon is about to lose and is saved by the usage evolution out of the blue, certainly didn't warrant the win against the opponent, and took an ungodly amount of damage and suddenly has everything it needs to win and does so fairly quickly in ~perfect~ fashion, yes it is DEM. And that's a strong example of it. Let's use some other midbattle evolutions as examples. Chimchar versus Electabuzz, evolved but amazingly enough not all problems were solved. But damaged its opponents enough to warrant the victory, had more than enough experience to evolve and that evolution wasn't treated as the end all be all and didn't have an attractive outcome. Instead a realistic one. Another? Drilbur versus Druddigon, Iris's Drilbur had been dominating the battle for what we saw and had been trained and gained 99 wins under her care, more than enough experience to feasibly evolve. And the evolution changed nothing since Iris already was shown to be capably and realistically handling Druddigon prior.

This battle was a Deus Ex Machina and bad writing in execution.

 

[FuzzyBlueElg]

If a Pokemon is about to lose and is saved by the usage evolution out of the blue, certainly didn't warrant the win against the opponent, and took an ungodly amount of damage and suddenly has everything it needs to win and does so fairly quickly in ~perfect~ fashion, yes it is DEM. And that's a strong example of it. Let's use some other midbattle evolutions as examples. Chimchar versus Electabuzz, evolved but amazingly enough not all problems were solved. But damaged its opponents enough to warrant the victory, had more than enough experience to evolve and that evolution wasn't treated as the end all be all and didn't have an attractive outcome. Instead a realistic one. Another? Drilbur versus Druddigon, Iris's Drilbur had been dominating the battle for what we saw and had been trained and gained 99 wins under her care, more than enough experience to feasibly evolve. And the evolution changed nothing since Iris already was shown to be capably and realistically handling Druddigon prior.

This battle was a Deus Ex Machina and bad writing in execution.

Your messing with me right? I mean you gotta be. I refuse to believe there's anyone who cannot understand such a ridiculously simple concept.

Argue all you want about it being bad writing but you cannot argue that it was DEM.

Read carefully what I am about to write because its the final time I will explain it

Deus Ex Machina is the introduction of something new and previously unmentioned that solves an otherwise impossible situation. Mid battle evolution cannot be classed as DEM because it has happened multiple times in the past.

It's previously been mentioned therefore it is not DEM.

 

[Blue Saturday]

Your messing with me right? I mean you gotta be. I refuse to believe there's anyone who cannot understand such a ridiculously simple concept.

You act as if your personal line of thinking is God-tier and universal.

Argue all you want about it being bad writing but you cannot argue that it was DEM.

You cannot speak in absolutes, because the battle did have a happy convenience and contrived solution.

Read carefully what I am about to write because its the final time I will explain it

Read carefully what I am about to write because its the final time I will explain it.

Deus Ex Machina is the introduction of something new and previously unmentioned that solves an otherwise impossible situation. Mid battle evolution cannot be classed as DEM because it has happened multiple times in the past.

Divine intervention in the form of plot armor brought about evolution to save Ash from a loss he would have taken otherwise. Mentioned or not, Fletchling's evolution might be have been predictable. But it was a DEM.

It's previously been mentioned therefore it is not DEM.

Nah.

 

[Rohanator]

You guys are still talking about Fletchling? DAIUM. Bby bird too stronk.

 

[Cresselia92]

I consider Fletchling's case a case of hysterical strength, aka the display of incredible and seemingly impossible feats under severe stress and the effect of adrenaline, and this same principle has been applied several times to various other situations. It isn't anything new to the anime, so I wonder why it is suddenly such a big deal now. Also, the bird studied its opponent before the battle and was determined to prove it wrong, so that further fuelled its capacities. If you are determined to do something, you can bet that you'll put everything in stake and do better than usual. That's what happened with the little robin.

Besides, remember that Fletchling was a wild Pokémon before its capture, so it must have had several battles during its life in order to survive in the wild. It's not like it has been just hatched like Scraggy and as such doesn't have strength or experience. After all, Ash wanted to catch it especially for its power, which is the same reason why he caught Palpitoad. It's just that said power needs to be polished by the Trainer and used to its maximum potential. In fact, isn't that the job of a Pokémon Trainer? To bring out the full power of a Pokémon and to make it stronger?

But let's compare Fletchling with the previous little birds, shall we?

Taillow

Battles: unfinished battle against Nicholai, lost to Anthony's Pelipper, lost to Brawly's Machop (in a single hit!), lost to Drew's Roselia

Evolution: PokéRinger (AG080), evolved through sheer determination, which managed to make it resist Electric-type attacks and defy a powerful storm, and learned Wing Attack upon evolution

Starly

Battles: lost to Paul's Starly

Evolution: against Team Rocket (DP013) while wanting to help other Flying-type Pokémon, and mastered Aerial Ace upon evolution

Pidove

Battles: lost to Trip's Frillish

Evolution: while warding off the Venipede (BW022)

Fletchling

Battles: won against Viola's Surskit, lost to Viola's Vivillon (twice), lost to Grant's Tyrunt

Evolution: Sky Battle (XY035), evolved through sheer determination, where it used its little dimensions to dodge its opponent's attacks and to endure a Fire Blast, and learned Flame Charge upon evolution

By looking at these, Fletchling is one of the birds who deserved to evolve the most, if we consider the loss/win ratio and take the number of episodes spent under Ash's command as a measure of time. Starly and Pidove were way quicker and did way less. That's of course if we consider only the birds, but there are worse cases of "undeserved evolutions" (*cough*Sewaddle and Roggenrola*cough*).

So no. I don't consider Fletchling's evolution and win DEM, especially not after taking in account that the bird studied its opponent beforehand (so it didn't resort to luck, for once), managed to hold its own for a while and won thanks to various speed-boosting Flame Charges, which made it way harder to hit. And at least Talonflame didn't fall to a single attack after the bird evolved, contrary to Skyla's Swanna (which, may I remind you, was the Gym Leader's ace) who was taken down by a single Aerial Ace, so it isn't like it has been overly humiliated as a species.

Anyway, about the future Gym battle... meh, I already voiced my opinion on the matter, so I'm not gonna bother saying it again and again. I just want this to be over already, so that we can finally move on from this overhyped Lucario.

 

[FuzzyBlueElg]

@ Dorruzu

I understand now. You don't understand the meaning of the word new.

It's something that hasnt happened before.

Therefore since DEM is the introduction of something new, an evolution during battle cannot be classed as DEM because its happened before.

By all means call it bad writing. It's your right to view it as such. But there's no room for interpretation with DEM. it's not a newly introduced thing therefore its not DEM

But since it has nothing to do with the point of the thread I'm done with you