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How would Ash winning a league change the anime?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by U.N. Owen, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Same, plus the whole 'moral victor' theme that was blatantly going to be utilised due to Alain's insecurities and relations with Team Flare.
     
  2. Hanto

    Hanto Water Addiction

    I wish the writers make Alain's win kinda dubious because of all the Mega-Evolution energy and show us that Ash will win without that energy boost. Even if Charizard was that strong, we never see another team of Alain and he barely trained them.
     
  3. Yuugis Black Magician

    Yuugis Black Magician Well-Known Member

    It's unnecessary to see Alan's other Pokemon. They had no storylines to be told. All we needed to know was that they were strong, which they were. The story is about Alan and his Lizardon fighting using Mega Evolution.
     
    04n70n10 and Spider-Phoenix like this.
  4. satopi

    satopi All hail Satomine Night!

    I don't think Ash even cares, he just wants another accomplishment on his belt to show and add to his experiences to achieve his dream.
     
  5. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Even though I would usually disagree with you on this in general (for example if Kiawe shows up at the league with Pokémon we've never seen before I would be pissed, which you and I have discussed previously), I have to admit that in this battle it was so epic to have no idea who Alain's Pokémon were besides 2 of them, because each time he threw the next Poké Ball it was so epic to have no clue what Pokémon it was going to be at all, and expecting any of hundreds of possibilities.
     
    04n70n10 likes this.
  6. 04n70n10

    04n70n10 Well-Known Member

    Someone definitely made this sort of "decree", probably for this old fashioned idea that if Ash wins.... but really, once again... writers/directors or "what else"... we have elite4, there is this champions league, we know that pokemon master isn't just winning a regional league but it's something else conveniently vague.... but no, writers still love their "comfort zones". After 20 years, we need something to restore some hope and expectations for the league itself.

    My personal "story" with the leagues, across the years:

    - 1° defeat, Kanto: many years ago... well, i was sad like all but kinda surprised for this loss just at Top 16 (and like many I expected an Ash vs Gary back then), and i sort of "liked" this unpredictably (but after 18 years... lol), a character that doesn't "automatically" win in the end for the "mere" fact to being in the "main cast" was "good" to me, and Ash was still a beginner afterall. So understable.

    -2° defeat, Johto: Good to see (...finally!) Ash vs Gary at the league, sad by the loss against Harrison but still understable, a good fight and Top 8, so a... progession afterall, if we consider even the win of the orange league before, although it's a minor competition. It was... enought. Still liked this (apparent...) unpredictably.

    -3° defeat, Hoenn: Start to think about, writers... do you really... not want... to let Ash to... win something? another Top 8, no regression but no progession... but at least, after that, the Battle Frontier win give me some hope for the future and for the next adventures in Sinnoh. So "ok", a bit "tired", but still want to... believe.

    -4° defeat, Sinnoh: It was awesome Ash vs Paul and all the relative "storyline" in DP, but aside that, this was a sort of turning point for me, It is """""now""""" (lol) clear (even for someone "blind" like me lol) that writers love to "joke" us about this dream of Ash, namely winning a league. Writers introduced this champions league (and when Flint tells Ash about the time he won the Sinnoh League)... basically for... nothing ... Tobias was really indicative of this ""determination"". And even the pokégirls (May before, now Dawn) in the end... fail to achieve their respective dreams. A positive thing was the progression in Top 4, but... really tired by this pattern

    -5° defeat, Unova: Still recovering after DP I didn't have any particular hopes in this season regarding the league, and Ash didn't give me the vibes for a victory afterall. Sad for the Top 8 but the ending gave me at least some hope, back to pallet town Ash was determined to win this time the next league in Alexa's land: Kalos.

    -6° defeat, Kalos: Ash's determination, awesome gym battles, Ash vs Sawyer and Alain... but...I need to say...? very sad in the end. This time I really believed for a final victory, for many reason and i wrote them in this forum during the XY and XYZ period. One of these was Ash-Greninja, this strange bond-phenomenon, writers didn't give such "special things/powers" to Ash before. For this league and the relative defeat there is already an abundant "literature" on this matter, so I will not digress further. To be more positive, at least we have a final (after so many top 8 battles) , a Top 2 achievement... so a progression after... all.

    - ....? Alola? Well, after Kalos I will wait and see for some time. I don't have a clear idea about this yet, the alola league, at least for now.

    In the end I still have some hope, maybe someone will broke this "old scheme". In very-very broad terms, there is a (very slooooooow) progression afterall in these years. I just hope I dont' have to wait another 2-3... decades lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 9:53 AM
  7. Yuugis Black Magician

    Yuugis Black Magician Well-Known Member

    'The writers' don't decide the plot. Japanese cartoons are not made like Hollywood series in that manner. The series director and/or chief director decide the goals of the project and the writer is merely there to put it into script format most of the time. Tomioka Atsuhiro personally writing all of the Shinji episodes and nearly all of Hikari's Contest episodes tells us that he probably felt very passionately about those episodes and took ownership of them. Additionally, we know that Asada Yuuji personally storyboarded and directed Diamond & Pearl Episodes #172, #177, #187, #188 and #191 (a tremendous feat practically unheard of for long-running cartoons) and was credited as the series director for Episodes #171-191 as a result. Tomioka, Asada and Iwane (who solo key animated all of those Asada-directed episodes) basically dedicated their lives to ensuring that Diamond & Pearl would have the best ending possible. With the way the Champion League, Shirona and Ooba were introduced it is unquestionable that there was some big plans in store for the franchise because Best Wishes had to become a play off of the early Kantou episodes again. It's a major shame that the cartoon is being held back but the fact that there is so much effort placed into major episodes and arcs since Diamond & Pearl is a testament to the intention to make something the staff can be proud of.
     
    satopi and 04n70n10 like this.
  8. Power Up

    Power Up An eye for an eye my friend

    I’d agree that Alain did have a god reason to win the league and Marin was probably one of reasons why he won it.

    ...

    ...

    Ash doesn’t care abt winning a league? OK. Maybe in SM, but every other series Ash has shown that he cares more than anyone else out there

    SM is a joke vacation Gen that has literally only shown continuity to OS(to my knowledge) and should not be used as an example or ball park of the series
     
  9. satopi

    satopi All hail Satomine Night!

    Ash only cares about battling strong Trainers. He used to get riled up about losing but since he lost so many times, he entered it out of enjoyment.:p Nothing wrong with that.

    He seems pretty apathetic about his loss in XY yet still cared about winning it throughout the saga. There isn't even a League in Alola yet so you can't say that. I said this before, "such a shame that Ash can't focus on something else other than the League." Just because he's doing something else worth noting, it doesn't make it any different since it is progressing towards his dream. He was just as excited about the League being built as he was in each saga wanting to win it. Quit trying to find ways to demonize SM as if it turned him into BW 2.0 again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018 at 7:49 PM
  10. Power Up

    Power Up An eye for an eye my friend

    Goes to show how terrible Ash's character has been treated.

    His apathy after his loss in XY was a bad moment of XYZ and completely out of character.

    What the heck is he doing worth noting of SM??? He has no real end goal to work towards or any progression in SM.

    No, it's worse than BW because even if Ash was stupid, he actually cared about winning the league and becoming a Pokemon master
     
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  11. AuraChannelerChris

    AuraChannelerChris 2 Cool 4 8-Bit School

    Well, the children of the current generation would be able to relate to an ageless time lord finally winning big after so much effort and many major losses.
     
  12. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    SM is to show there is more to learn about being a trainer than battling. Sure Ash sucks in a lot of superficial challenges like the class exercises, but he does still seem to be more methodical and engrossing himself further into the Pokemon themselves. There's probably more times in SM than in any other series where Ash has been forced to be clever, just not always in a battle.

    I'm kinda hoping SM plays the middle ground in terms of his league loss, ie. taking it gracefully but visibly crushed inside. SM's already had a few good demonstrations of this.

    On the other hand I suppose stuff like the Elite Four and the Champion's league would only be more inconvenient because they risk taking up more time in the series that they aren't positive they'll have and of course when he passes to them once the audience will expect him to get there another time.
     
    FlygontheRavager likes this.
  13. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry...how was it a bad moment that was OOC when less than 10 episodes, the lesson Ash came to accept was that it wasn't about winning, but about doing his utmost with his partners, which was exactly what he did against a superior opponent?

    I want Ash to win the League as well, but for Ash to be disappointed following the Alain match would've contradicted the entire Ash-Greninja arc. He was sorry to those he promised, but for him personally, he could have asked for no greater result against a stronger trainer.
     
    Genaller and FlygontheRavager like this.
  14. Leonhart

    Leonhart Disney fanatic

    I'm starting to believe that even Satoshi's interest in winning a League is waning at this point since he hasn't been as passionate regarding Leagues in recent sagas compared to how he was in OS. I think he simply wants to try his best and fight tough opponents, not necessarily that winning is his sole persuasion.
     
  15. Power Up

    Power Up An eye for an eye my friend

    I think they went too far with that scene. Maybe I'm underestimating how mature Ash really was in that series, but I was expecting maybe a couple of tears or at least a sad face(ofc, in the end, he would smile), since this is the final of a league we're talking abt. It's something he's always wanted to do, something that would give me a huge step forward in his quest to become a Pokemon master. I think it would warrant at least a moment of self-reflection. To me, the reaction made by Ash was unrealistic and yes, I'll say it, a bit robotic. There was no sign of sadness from him.

    Ash-Greninja's arc for me was more about him overcoming his overconfidence in his power and yes connecting with his partners and syncing up with them.
     
  16. Yuugis Black Magician

    Yuugis Black Magician Well-Known Member

    It's hard to write Satoshi as passionate when they're not really allowed to reference continuity heavily or heavy continuity is not something they can easily reference when they have to consider how the kids watching the current series hasn't seen all of the older ones. Or in the case of Yajima for XY he just completely forgot to include references to the past.
     
  17. Ash-Pikachu

    Ash-Pikachu Well-Known Member

    Not really. Ash was obsessed with winning to the point where it ruined Ash's strength and character to the extent in which it made him even weaker. Wulfuric told him this in which Ash matured, heeded his advice, and managed to master Ash-Greninja and tap into his pokemon's true power.

    Showing frustration would've displayed lack of character and growth. Even Paul responded apathetically and was smiling after Ash defeated him. Was Paul suddenly a weak character because of that? Hell, Ash wasn't devestated after losing Tobias.

    It's pretty clear that experiences matters to Ash. He obviously wanted to win the league but progression towards his goal despite failure is paramount to his success. Accepting defeat was a sign of growth as it was for Paul.
     
    satopi, 345ash-greninja and Genaller like this.
  18. Power Up

    Power Up An eye for an eye my friend

    I'm not asking for him to throw a tantrum. I definitely understand what you mean here on the AG arc

    Frustration isn't really what I wanted again. I just wanted some more obvious sadness.
     
  19. Epicocity

    Epicocity Well-Known Member

    Wait, you expected him to cry. After everything, even after his less and less reactions following every loss, and you expected him to cry because he got close?

    Forgive me, but it sounds more like you projecting your own personal feelings on to the character than how the character should actually act given his development.
     
  20. Power Up

    Power Up An eye for an eye my friend

    A bit of exaggeration on my part my bad, honestly, I would have been depressed if I was Ash lol

    I was mostly really expecting self-reflection and or a sad face and then what Ash did after he lost at the league. A headshake or something
     

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